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India launches a rocket. Why!?
Jainarayan
Veteran
I seem to have started a wee shit storm at another site about India launching a Mars probe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Orbiter_Mission This really bothers me.
I said, in part:
With millions of Indian people starving, scraping in the dirt for food, India spends millions of $$$ to go to a dead planet? If we haven't found any Martians, what makes India think they will? And people are worried about the 23% of Christians in India making inroads into the >75% Hindu population? I just threw up a little in my mouth at the thought of all this.Indian and Hindu sympathies and priorities are grossly misplaced and completely effed up. For all the pissing and moaning everyone does about the corruption in India, somehow the government keeps getting elected in. Not to mention worrying about Big Bad You-Know-Who; maybe the gov't should put the money into educating its own people in their own religion and culture, if not feeding them. I blame the Indian people for their plight... "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". The $69 million spent on this project could feed a lot of people.
(the Big Bad You-Know-Who is Jesus, whom Hindus on the internet seem to be terrified of)
I said, in part:
With millions of Indian people starving, scraping in the dirt for food, India spends millions of $$$ to go to a dead planet? If we haven't found any Martians, what makes India think they will? And people are worried about the 23% of Christians in India making inroads into the >75% Hindu population? I just threw up a little in my mouth at the thought of all this.Indian and Hindu sympathies and priorities are grossly misplaced and completely effed up. For all the pissing and moaning everyone does about the corruption in India, somehow the government keeps getting elected in. Not to mention worrying about Big Bad You-Know-Who; maybe the gov't should put the money into educating its own people in their own religion and culture, if not feeding them. I blame the Indian people for their plight... "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". The $69 million spent on this project could feed a lot of people.
(the Big Bad You-Know-Who is Jesus, whom Hindus on the internet seem to be terrified of)
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Comments
What does that have to do with India's Mars mission?
Going from a discussion of India's poverty vs. it's aspiration in space travel to a rant about Christians gaining influence in India is a sure-fired way to stir shit up.
Some might view a post like that as a troll.
America doesn't call upon numerous outside charities raising money to provide food, education and shelter for countless thousands of undernourished and impoverished children, while its coffers are bursting at the seams, and money is being spent on keeping the rich rich.
My H recently had to do phone drives on behalf of charities, raising money from existing subscribers and donors (essentially getting them to increase/double their current donations) for Charities funding educational projects in India. yet India is actually one of the richest countries in the world.
See the difference?
If you suspect trolling, don't allude to it.
Flag it, report it and keep out of it.
What does that have to do with India's Mars mission?
Going from a discussion of India's poverty vs. it's aspiration in space travel to a rant about Christians gaining influence in India is a sure-fired way to stir shit up.
Some might view a post like that as a troll.
I should have prefaced this thread by saying my post there was a reaction to other posts blaming Christians for most of India's woes... that "it's everyone else's fault India is in the state it's in". There is a running theme at the site about how the Indian government is in cahoots with Muslims and Christians to destroy Hinduism and Indian culture. The association between going to Mars, Christians and people starving was my reaction to their "we want our cake and eat it too and we want to blame everyone else". Imo India needs to look within itself to help its people and itself on Earth rather than exploring space. Especially when people are starving, and if Islam and Christianity are such threats to Indian culture. It wasn't a troll post, but rather a "man up, India".
I think that's true because in effect, the people are the governing force.
If we look at Sabres post though, I can see a point there.
Forget about nationalism... Humans are spending massive amounts of energy in space when we need it here.
Maybe we could do both once we figure out how to come to grips with life here first.
I personally think it's disgusting that ANY country spends so much on space exploration when that money could be channelled towards eradicating poverty, public healthcare and education. I agree with the sentiment in the original post about that too.
India has developed a bad habit of accusing any other country of being racist when they disagree, yet they'll not hesitate to burn another country's flag, make derogatory and insulting effigies as well as use racism in sport against other countries and expect to get away with it. The reaction to the OP in parts illustrates this.
In metta,
Raven
I've been looking into a trip to Bodhgaya. I find it perplexing that what is arguably one of the most sacred places on Earth is also in an area considered to be the poorest in India.
The US can outspend the rest of the free would, combined, in defense spending and have children going to bed hungry tonight. People living under bridges. Families homeless.
It's wrong.
Okay?
Sorry if you misunderstood.
A certain amount is invested on current issues and a certain amount speculated on future issues.
Prov. 19:17 When you help the poor you are lending to the Lord--and he pays wonderful interest on your loan!
Prov. 14:31 Anyone who oppresses the poor is insulting God who made them. To help the poor is to honor God.
Prov. 28:27 If you give to the poor, your needs will be supplied! But a curse upon those who close their eyes to poverty.
Luke 3:9 The axe of his judgment is poised over you, ready to sever your roots and cut you down. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire." Luke 3:10 The crowd replied, "What do you want us to do?" Luke 3:11 "If you have two coats," he replied, "give one to the poor. If you have extra food, give it away to those who are hungry."
I was referring to the fact that 'it' really bothers you - so perhaps showing another way of considering the issue.
The comparison utilised in order to criticise the space program appears to rest on certain assumptions - for example, that the sum spent on the program is a net loss or that such a sum could be available like for like to be distributed toward other projects or that a comparison of investment potential £ for £ yields away from the spend... the list of contributing factors is immense.
Criticising the Indian government solely based on aid and poverty figures seems a tasty headline and, I guess by definition, politically motivated to some degree but it's not anything close to a realistic reflection of the workings of the global financial system.
It may loosen the tension of the situation that causes bother to consider how the effect (bother from a firm conclusion) is caused by the view.
Edit Matt 26:11 - utter speculation but the very next part leads into jesus being betrayed so at the time that the woman put the expensive balm on him (a random act by an unknown person that would be equated to a last rite of great respect) the disciples did not know jesus was about to be betrayed and killed - so they say, 'why waste this balm' - and jesus is like, there's only one me... now the first thought that came to my mind was here is a man who has talked non stop about the poor inheriting everything now suddenly he's saying that there's only one him and lots of poor - has he changed his mind about the poor? unlikely... it seems that he may be hinting that the last rite was more appropriate than the disciples could have known?
And yes, while I realise the irony of this being on an online forum, who's valuable information and community I hold dear, I FIRMLY feel that eradicating ANY poverty, sickness, bettering health care and education AND bettering the planet WE LIVE ON NOW supercedes any space exploration. The very thought of colonising other planets because we expect this one to be destroyed is appalling. If the human race destroys the Earth because of greed and apathy to the Earth, what makes you think we deserve another chance to destroy another planet?
I'm sorry this is something I feel very strongly about and I think NASA should be curbed a great deal. That money should be spent elsewhere. Period.
If you visit India, you will find thousands of homeless children begging in the streets.
Thousands of people in India die from hunger and contaminated drinking water.
Millions are destitute and don’t even have toilets. So, one of the unique site in India is people defecating everywhere, under a tree, in the alley ways etc.
But there is a growing middle class in India who has benefited from the economic growth. Alas, the middle class numbers about 200 million while 81% of the population ie 840 million, survive on less than $2 per day.
So, why is sending a space ship to Mars more important than feeding the starving children?
In metta,
Raven
People don't live only on food, they live on dreams as well. When i see India deeply entrenched in corruption and crumbling under weight of problems on every front, these tiny flickers of hope sustain the faith that it will survive. Secondly, we all know that technology was and is still basis for colonialism in myriad of its forms. Without backing of technology, no nation can hope to pursue independent foreign policy.
I'll bet we can guess where this so-called generated money will go to. Probably not to these people; I'll bet they're dreaming how they'll feed their children. Maybe when Mars is terraformed and farmed? I hope the children live long enough to get a hot Martian meal.
I'll bet she dreams of packaged flour.
I wonder what they're dreaming of.
Aw... bellies full of dreams. Adorable!
The compassion for India's poor and starving is sorely lacking, being replaced by national ego.
If you really care, you'll do that, instead of writing a few messages on this forum that cost you zero cents.
It's really nothing more than that old adage to put your money where your mouth is.
I'm going to tell you a little story. Quite a few years ago in Thailand I would walk almost everyday over a walk-over to get to the bus stop. Every day there was a teenaged boy there with a terrible facial disfiguration; begging. In most Western nations he would have been in school, but not so in the third world. Each day I would give him a few coins, and then on the last day I was there I gave him about $10. I felt pretty good until later, when I began to think look how little I did...spent about half of what I spent almost every week on a music CD. My ego was sufficiently deflated, because what I had done was like a drop of water in the Pacific Ocean.
We've drifted off from calling out a national government spending millions of dollars on space exploration, when hundreds of millions of its citizens live in poverty, to placing the burden of helping those hundreds of millions living in poverty on private individuals in other countries. We do provide millions in foreign aid to India, which comes from our tax dollars, and has now escaped Earth's gravity. This has become a red herring.
I rarely believe that with most governments it's either/or.
My position is that while the topic should be discussed, it isn't as simplistic as thus far indicated.
India ought to do much more to eradicate its poverty and related issues.
But a government has other responsibilities, as well, including strategic issues.
An interesting article on charity by Indians:
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/07/11/economics-journal-why-charity-is-different-in-india/
Meanwhile:
http://www.giveindia.org
http://blog.givewell.org/2011/05/04/evaluating-local-charities-in-india/
https://www.imrcusa.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Charities_based_in_India
http://greatnonprofits.org/issues/indian
I am not saying these represent the best charities for India...do your research. This barely scratches the surface of what's online.
I stand by my earlier comments. Finis.
There were other priorities, of course. Our moon mission priorities were based on beating the Russians there. Once we had accomplished that, it was Mission Accomplished and we decided to send robots instead of people; safer, cheaper and in many ways better, but much less interesting than a live report by an astronaut on the surface of an alien world.
One thing we should remember, is the US space program came at the height of the Baby Boom. The country was, relatively speaking, prosperous. We maintained an active, aggressive space program while promoting such ideas as the Peace Corps, the Great Society, Civil Rights and a war on poverty. We also managed to shoe-horn a war in SE Asia while we were at it. We were doing things. A lot of things. Our priorities were balanced and scoped in a way that matched the greatness of our country and culture. It was, I believe, our high water mark.
India doesn't seem so balanced. They're doing great things technologically and amassing great wealth, meanwhile India remains a land of crushing poverty and there seems to be nothing going on to change that. I wouldn't stand for that in my own country, I can't accept it in India although there's precious little I can do about that.
India is, has been since Vedic times, and hopefully always will be a hotbed of technology, science, medicine, literature. The sad irony is that India is not a poor country. It's half the population that are poor. There seems to be a lot of hope in Narendra Modi, and kicking the Gandhis to the curb. Sonia Gandhi is not even Indian, she is Italian by birth. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Gandhi The reason for pointing that out is that imo, she is not in touch with the Indian people. The current Indian government is corrupt and rotten to the core.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/AllaboutNarendraModi/Mass-appeal-why-crowds-come-to-hear-Narendra-Modi/Article1-1149062.aspx
#justsaying
I'd rather a country launch a Mars probe than develop nuclear weapons. Just saying...
Corporations care little for anyone but their own shareholders. Until corporations lose their sacred status as imaginary legal entities (virtual beings), humans will remain subject to an us (shareholders) verses them (non shareholders} mentality.
Population problems/ food shortages/ poor health care/ withering social security and the limitation of personal freedoms are just the rising costs of us allowing these adversarial entities to remain as sacrosanct machines.