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Isnt it pathetic that we are having a debate over vegetarianism and killing insects when as stated above, there are people in this world who have no food to debate over.
I always remind vegetarians on this oard who throw out that they eat vegetables because they are not killing animals. I always hear a bit of smugness in their posts. I don't think it's pathetic to discuss these problems. It is probably more pathetic that none of us is helping those without food.
We have always heard that plants do better when they are talked to and feel the love from someone. Now that makes me think that maybe they are mre sentient than we give them credit for. Just because they don't talk to us or moo or bark doesn't mean they don't speak. They do move. They are growing all the time. It has also been established that they have a primitive nervous system. I just want others to think about these things the next time they feel justified not eating meat.
And yes Yogamama, we all know you don't like the taste and you are a very humane vegetarian.
I guess it really is pathetic that we debate over issues like this.
But what would you suggest we do? What should we do about this post and other posts? Should we just quit talking? Or was this just a comment to make people feel bad - with no real resolution provided?
No matter how much we talk about "meat -vs- veggies", "right mind", "sectarianism", "what I did today", "what does LOL mean?", etc. - people will still die of hunger, sickness, anger, jealousy, AIDS, etc.
So should we just quit talking all together? Should all Buddhists just stop talking and put forth everything single ounce of effort, will and strength to removing these things from the world? Should I quit my job and go over to Africa to do.... whatever it is I would be doing?
What should I do?
Are you really just wanting me/us to quit talking about this subject? Do you have a plan or guidance for us?
I think most debates are a good thing and talking about our different opinoins and views is what helps us out in life. To me, this whole debate over meat eaters vs. vegetarians has just been a friendly discussion and I think it is helpful to all of us to read all the different opinoins. And look at how long and informative this one thread is! Debates and discussions are a normal part of every day life.
I think most debates are a good thing and talking about our different opinoins and views is what helps us out in life. To me, this whole debate over meat eaters vs. vegetarians has just been a friendly discussion and I think it is helpful to all of us to read all the different opinoins. And look at how long and informative this one thread is! Debates and discussions are a normal part of every day life.
Good point, YM.
I'm sure some people think that I'm quite the bastard stating some of the things that I do - but it's not meant to offend or ridicule anyone. I'm sure I could use some classes like
Dale Carnegie: How to post thread and influence Buddhists!
And if I have offended anyone - I apologize. That is not my intention. My intention is to seek, to provide information and hopefully learn something. And all the vegetarian posts people have made on this thread have been:
* Very enlightening
* Very thought provoking
* Very educational
* And made me think a lot about what I do. Not just in passing, but on a daily basis. It makes me think about the choices I make.
For that, I thank all of you.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2005
This is precisely why I love this forum. I have yet to meet anyone who deliberately sets out to cause offence, or who is egotistic and self-centred enough to believe their opinion counts above that of others... similarly, the levels of tolerance, compassion and understanding are awesome, and other forums (I am thinking of two or three as I write!)would do well to sit, listen, learn and take note.
For my part, I have been both a vegetarian and an omnivore.... I came back to meat after an absence of over a year. This abstention was due partly to conscience, and partly due to medical reasons. I love meat. I live with a meat-eater, and I try to buy "conscientiously". I'm not seeking either to excuse my behaviour or habits, neither do I justify them.... I am as I am, and I have to live with my decisions accordingly.
But I know that speaking clearly, honestly, and stating it like it is (there is no reason to do otherwise) will not get me shot down in flames here, as it might well elsewhere.
One huge great respectful and reverent 'Ghasso' to you all.
buddhafoot - I wasn't offended by your post at all. And, if I could speak for emmak, and she can correct me if I am wrong...but I think her point was more to say it's sad that there are so many people in this world that do not even have food, and here we all are, debating over all of the choices of food availbale to us! That's what I got from her post - not that it was wrong of us to be debating, but just that it's sad how others in this world are without food at all.
If you eat meat or consume dairy you support the abuse and slaughter.
There is really nothing more to argue about.
You know in your heart what is right and what is wrong.
Instead of debating about this on the web go out into the world spread some love and peace...
make a difference.
so are you saying it is our nature to be cruel and abuse animals?
Until you review the links I don't have much more to say to you.
The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of 'real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital.
-Neal D. Barnard, M.D
You need to hunt something that can shoot back at you to really classify yourself as a hunter. You need to understand the feeling of what it's like to go into the field and know your opposition can take you out. Not just go out there and shoot Bambi.
-Gov. Jesse Ventura
I have to agree with you, Buddhafoot. And I am Vegan! Creative Heart, I have to ask you...do you grow all of your own fruits, veggies, and sources of protein right in your own back yard, or do you purchase those items??
I love meat and I don't agree with hunting at all. I have always said animals should be slaughted instead of hunters trying to prove how manly they are. Eating one cow can feed a family for a month. Eating a salad has killed not only the animals ni the field plus the vegetables. I still believe that eating vegetables is killing a living being. I also believe that it is in our nature to eat meat and non meat products. I think the shark remark by batman was right on the money concerning nature.
I purchase my items. I can not grow anything, but some herbs in the kitchen. I live in an apartment.
I try to support local farmers by purchasing some things at the farmers market but that is all.
I do the best that I can.
I am far from perfect.
So are all the meat eaters. Do those farmers use pesticides? I know everytime I grow things for my wife the bugs are everywhere. They get so bad that I lose vegetables.
If we are meant to eat meat then why do we have long intestines?
Also, I challenge you to take your "so called canines" and tear into some raw hide. You cannot! A wolf can.
Unlike fiber, the transit time is long for meat inside the intestines thus causing disease and stress within the intestines and colon.
By design we are not meant to eat meat.
If we stopped mass producing animals we could use that land and space and feed hungry humans!
As far as indirectly killing animals by using farmland that is true, however it is not the same as directly killing and torturing poor helpless animals.
We do need land to grow food but we don't need all this concrete and shopping malls.
So when you try to challenge me by asking if I purchase food, the answer is yes, but I am trying to make a difference are you?
Finally, when it comes to plants and animals. Yes, plants are alive but they are not sentient beings.
Sentient beings have central nervous systems, so they are aware of pain. Plants are not considered sentient.
It is known that plants are good for us and help us to maintain health and life. The same cannot be said for animal flesh and dairy. They age us and cause disease.
The first vow of a Bodhisattva states: "Sentient beings are numberless; I vow to free them."
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2005
CreativeHeart, listen; I know you feel very strongly about this subject, and I admire you, I truly do. But man as an animal, has been devouring meat for aeons.... proof if it were needed, is in the cave drawings left by their original occupants. Where the fault lies is in how everything has been processed and sanitised out of all proportion. We have far too much in the West, and not enough in the third world.
There is an extraordinary and unjust imbalance in how things are done, and in how wealth in general is distributed. Meat production sucks, but so do plenty of other humanised and controlled industries.
Even HH the Dalai Lama eats meat, you know....
Finally, when it comes to plants and animals. Yes, plants are alive but they are not sentient beings.
Sentient beings have central nervous systems, so they are aware of pain. Plants are not considered sentient.
The first vow of a Bodhisattva states: "Sentient beings are numberless; I vow to free them."
How do you know plants are not sentient? They do have a prmitive nervous system. So they do feel pain. Explain why plants do better when talked to by people. Plants are always growing and moving. Maybe they are speaking but we just don't hear them? If people were not meant to eat meat then why is it that I am allergic to fruits and vegetables and explain why Elohim has to eat red meat.
I must correct my previous post about eatting red meat. I actually started to do more research about my specific type of anemia, and with the help of another kind researcher, I discovered that cholesterol is exceptionally bad for me. I also learned that foods high in iron, such as red meat, attack my red blood cells and cause great amounts of damage. My anemia is one of the few that requires me to NOT get any iron. I had believed before that I had to eat red meat, but I have since learned that it is not good for me at all. I do still feel better after I eat red meat though, which is odd considering it's more harmful to me than good.
I just thought I should let you all know. In all truth being a vegetarian is much better for me than eatting meat. The extra cholesterol from animal products gives me an increasingly higher risk of developing bilirubin stones, among other things. I still eat meat, but once in a while I try refrain from any at all. My beliefs about eatting met remain the same, however. From a Buddhist standpoint I believe it's ok to not eat meat as equally as it is ok to eat meat.
I am glad you found that out Jason. I on the other hand am still allergic so if I stopped eating meat and only ate the healthy fooods I can eat thenmy diet would consist of a lot of suppliments and a few food items. I would be miserable.
I purchase my items. I can not grow anything, but some herbs in the kitchen. I live in an apartment.
I try to support local farmers by purchasing some things at the farmers market but that is all.
I do the best that I can.
I am far from perfect.
We are all far from perfect, and I understand that you feel strongly about not eating meat. Heck, I am Vegan, but I certainly do not expect everyone on here to be Vegan as well. Living a life that is 100% free from harming ANY animals, insects, critters, etc is darn near impossible. I don't think that eating meat makes you a bad person, and I am afraid that your posts here are starting to sounds that way. What do you think about Buddhists in Tibet who must eat meat since they do not have access to all of the fruits and vegetables that we have? We all do our best, and yes, we can all make improvements in our lives, but what is right for you may not be right for other people.
So when you try to challenge me by asking if I purchase food, the answer is yes, but I am trying to make a difference are you?
Yes, I am trying to make a difference in this world, but I do not believe that forcing my beliefs on other people is going to make a difference in anyone's life!
The links you provided were great and very helpful. I have seen many of those already. It is great to provide information, but I don't think it is fair to criticize people when they are doing something different than you. My point to you was that you are also doing things in this world that harm insects, animals, etc. We all do.
I purchase my items. I can not grow anything, but some herbs in the kitchen. I live in an apartment.
I try to support local farmers by purchasing some things at the farmers market but that is all.
I do the best that I can.
I am far from perfect.
Hmmm... with the militant Vegan opinions you've been making here - maybe "you" should move to a place where "you" can grow your own food. No one is stopping you. I would think with the statements you've made, you wouldn't let a little thing like "convenience" or "comfort" hinder you from doing what you feel is right.
As for all these internet pages being thrust at us and statements of "design", here's one for you. http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html
As you can see, it's quite easy to just dig up internet pages for just about anything one would wish to.
I think people have posted excellent posts regarding "eating meat" and "vegans". I honestly think people should be given information and then they decide for themselves what works best for them. Forcing or plying people with "guilt" does nothing more than reduce this forum to practices of Christianity - force people to God through guilt.
I don't even know if the stuff this site has posted is true. Could be a load of hoo-hah for all I know. That's the problem, I believe, with taking someone else's ideas and posting them as fact or the end-all-be-all.
I also think (and have thanked CreativeHeart) for some very informative, thought-provoking articles. Even if only 5% of the information on these pages is true (either due to mis-information - or not providing the other side of the debate) - they are still very informative and thought-provoking.
I just have a hard time with "this is right and that is wrong" or even "i'm right and your wrong". I think each person needs to find what works for them. If by "reasoning" together, we can help each other further our seeking and "awakening" - then that is great. But lately, this seems to be creating more dissention than not.
I think the worst thing about "meat-eating" at this point is how inhumane animals are treated. I mean, in Nature, there are grusome, bloody deaths. Being torn, limb from limb, or a pride of lions gorging on you while you're still alive - can't be fun. But, the lifes and death animals suffer through with "mass" food production is awful because it comes down to one thing....
Money.
The Almighty profit margin. That is what is sad to me.
I believe that you can choose to eat meat or not. Even the Buddha allowed his monks to eat meat. But if a person feels strong compassion for animals and chooses not to eat meat I think that is equally ok, hell it may be even better. I think it's a fine choice as long as they don't get too attached to the idea. Being a vegetarian and holding on to that label, attaching to it like a badge, and criticizing others for not being one burns the mind just as much as fire does a tree. The same goes for the people who eat meat. Neither makes you right, neither makes you wrong.
It's the mind that is important, not so much the body. Please remember that. When you begin to speak harshly, or with judgement that means your mind is already on fire. I have come to learn that Buddhism is meant to quench this fire, not stir it up even more. Sometimes we can become attached to our beliefs and get a little carried away. It happens to me, it happens to you, it happens to all of us. Every once in a while we should stop to reflect a little bit on our intentions and motives.
Watch the mind carefully, it can be tricky. Is it you or is it the kilesas that are speaking?
"This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Monks, there are these three fires. Which three? The fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. These, monks, are the three fires."
The fire of passion burns in a mortal
excited, smitten
with sensual desires;
the fire of aversion, in a malevolent person
taking life;
the fire of delusion, in a bewildered person
ignorant
of the noble teaching.
Not understanding these fires, people
-- fond of self-identity --
unreleased from Mara's shackles,
swell the ranks of hell,
the wombs of common animals, demons,
the realm of the hungry shades.
While those who, day & night,
are devoted
to the teachings
of the rightly self-awakened,
put out the fire of passion,
constantly perceiving the foul.
They, superlative people,
put out the fire of aversion
with good will,
and the fire of delusion
with the discernment leading
to penetration.
They, the masterful, by night & day,
having put out [the fires],
having, without remainder,
comprehended stress,
are, without remainder,
totally unbound.
They, the wise, with an attainer-of-wisdom's
noble vision,
right gnosis,
directly knowing
the ending of birth,
come to no further becoming.
~ Itivuttaka 93
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2005
Can't private meassage or e-mail CreativeHeart.... a pity. I would have liked to ask him to not be so discouraged, as to leave at "the first hurdle".... Jarett is still with us inspite of initial 'resistance ' on our part.... I should say 'MY' part: I cannot speak for others so automatically....
CreativeHeart, if you are still "lurking" and reading responses, come back and continue discussion. Whatever people's opinions are, it's all still a wonderful learning-curve....
Listen BF,
I posted these links for educational purposes do with it what you will, but know that your choices do not only effect you!
As for your condescending attitude, I can do without!
Also, I read outside of the Internet how about you?
Based upon your number of posts, it doesn't seem as if you would have the time
Again... Hmmm... my condescending attitude? But the rest of us ~have~ to listen to your condescending attitutude and excuses. Interesting.
I believe you posted these links for educational purposes. I also believe that, in the course of this thread, I thanked you for posting them a couple of times. I believe I told you that I found them very informative and thought provoking. And they were!
Yes, I read outside of the internet. I don't recall there ever being a discussion on this thread about what material I read outside of the internet. Did I miss something?
"Based upon the number of my posts" - I don't know what to say to this.
How do you know what I have going on in my life? I do a many, many things. Work, golf, music, recording, studio musician, spend every moment I can with my son, exercise, read, etc. Another instance of taking a vague statement and making a 'truth' out of it.
I just thought, as did other people out here, that some of the views you were expressing (not the great links you provided) were a little condescending to the other people out here.
If an apology will make it so that CreativeHeart will continue to participate in this forum, then I sincerely apologize. My intent was not to drive someone away.
I don't know what else to say.
-bf
P.S. But, since I have nothing else going on in my life (except newbuddhist.com) - I'll take a look around and see what other threads have been posted!
Listen BF,
I posted these links for educational purposes do with it what you will, but know that your choices do not only effect you!
As for your condescending attitude, I can do without!
Also, I read outside of the Internet how about you?
Based upon your number of posts, it doesn't seem as if you would have the time
It wasn't the links that caused a problem - it was the comments that came along with those links. It is ok to feel strongly about something, but IMO, it is not ok to make others feel terrible for living a life that is different than yours. I have never felt that Buddhafoot had a condescending attitude, but I immediately felt that way with you. No need for personal attakcs on this forum.
And if you feel that you need to leave this forum because of a rough start, then will you have learned anything? Probably not....stick around and see what happens! We are a very nice group.
I think it's a fine choice as long as they don't get too attached to the idea. Being a vegetarian and holding on to that label, attaching to it like a badge, and criticizing others for not being one burns the mind just as much as fire does a tree. The same goes for the people who eat meat. Neither makes you right, neither makes you wrong.
Comments
Absolutely. I think you are right.
I learned something important today.
Thanks.
cheers,
We have always heard that plants do better when they are talked to and feel the love from someone. Now that makes me think that maybe they are mre sentient than we give them credit for. Just because they don't talk to us or moo or bark doesn't mean they don't speak. They do move. They are growing all the time. It has also been established that they have a primitive nervous system. I just want others to think about these things the next time they feel justified not eating meat.
And yes Yogamama, we all know you don't like the taste and you are a very humane vegetarian.
I guess it really is pathetic that we debate over issues like this.
But what would you suggest we do? What should we do about this post and other posts? Should we just quit talking? Or was this just a comment to make people feel bad - with no real resolution provided?
No matter how much we talk about "meat -vs- veggies", "right mind", "sectarianism", "what I did today", "what does LOL mean?", etc. - people will still die of hunger, sickness, anger, jealousy, AIDS, etc.
So should we just quit talking all together? Should all Buddhists just stop talking and put forth everything single ounce of effort, will and strength to removing these things from the world? Should I quit my job and go over to Africa to do.... whatever it is I would be doing?
What should I do?
Are you really just wanting me/us to quit talking about this subject? Do you have a plan or guidance for us?
Help.
-bf
Good point, YM.
I'm sure some people think that I'm quite the bastard stating some of the things that I do - but it's not meant to offend or ridicule anyone. I'm sure I could use some classes like
Dale Carnegie: How to post thread and influence Buddhists!
And if I have offended anyone - I apologize. That is not my intention. My intention is to seek, to provide information and hopefully learn something. And all the vegetarian posts people have made on this thread have been:
* Very enlightening
* Very thought provoking
* Very educational
* And made me think a lot about what I do. Not just in passing, but on a daily basis. It makes me think about the choices I make.
For that, I thank all of you.
-bf
For my part, I have been both a vegetarian and an omnivore.... I came back to meat after an absence of over a year. This abstention was due partly to conscience, and partly due to medical reasons. I love meat. I live with a meat-eater, and I try to buy "conscientiously". I'm not seeking either to excuse my behaviour or habits, neither do I justify them.... I am as I am, and I have to live with my decisions accordingly.
But I know that speaking clearly, honestly, and stating it like it is (there is no reason to do otherwise) will not get me shot down in flames here, as it might well elsewhere.
One huge great respectful and reverent 'Ghasso' to you all.
I say hell is very real. Check out the following links
Don't forget to view the photos!
http://www.factoryfarming.com/
http://www.cok.net/
http://www.aavs.org/intro.html
http://www.navs.org/
http://www.animalfreedom.org/english/
http://www.milksucks.com/index2.html
THE FREE RANGE MYTH
http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/turkey-fr-13.html
http://www.cok.net/lit/freerange.php
http://www.stopanimaltests.com/
and if you get hunger pains
http://all-creatures.org/recipes.html
or lonely and hungry
http://vegweb.com/
http://www.vegsource.com/
or just want to chat
http://www.veganforum.com/front.html
http://coolvegan.com/forum/
If you eat meat or consume dairy you support the abuse and slaughter.
There is really nothing more to argue about.
You know in your heart what is right and what is wrong.
Instead of debating about this on the web go out into the world spread some love and peace...
make a difference.
You can save lives!
http://animalrights.meetup.com/
http://www.animalvoices.ca/
"Don't die with your music still in you"
Wayne Dyer
Lots of LOVE,
ME
Recommended Reading
Check out from your local library if you can not afford to purchase a book
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0935526870/qid=1125253424/sr=8-
1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5176012-5918311?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761516735/qid=1125253564/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-5176012-5918311?v=glance&s=books
http://www.vegsource.com/jo/essays/index.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0737303239/qid=1125253801/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-5176012-5918311?v=glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0737305061/qid=1125253867/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-5176012-5918311?v=glance&s=books
YOU DON"T HAVE TO EAT BORING FOOD WHILE EATING WITH COMPASSION
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1558322116/qid=1125254105/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-5176012-5918311?v=glance&s=books
You can't go wrong with Bryanna Grogan Clarks recipes! Seek her out on Vegssouce.com
She is always there to help when you get stuck in the kitchen!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570670277/qid=1125253962/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-5176012-5918311?v=glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570670552/qid=1125254026/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/104-5176012-5918311?v=glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1580910793/qid=1125254228/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-5176012-5918311?v=glance&s=books
Support Brands That Do Not Test on Animals
http://www.iamscruelty.com/notTested.asp
http://www.pleasebekind.com/testing.html
http://www.allforanimals.com/cruel1.htm
Whoooh, hang on a bit....that's sarcasm, isn't it?! Yup! Thought I recognised it as it whacked me where my nutz would be....!!
so are you saying it is our nature to be cruel and abuse animals?
Until you review the links I don't have much more to say to you.
The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of 'real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital.
-Neal D. Barnard, M.D
-Gov. Jesse Ventura
Not the articles - they are very thought provoking.
The posts... their sad.
-bf
I try to support local farmers by purchasing some things at the farmers market but that is all.
I do the best that I can.
I am far from perfect.
Also, I challenge you to take your "so called canines" and tear into some raw hide. You cannot! A wolf can.
Unlike fiber, the transit time is long for meat inside the intestines thus causing disease and stress within the intestines and colon.
By design we are not meant to eat meat.
If we stopped mass producing animals we could use that land and space and feed hungry humans!
As far as indirectly killing animals by using farmland that is true, however it is not the same as directly killing and torturing poor helpless animals.
We do need land to grow food but we don't need all this concrete and shopping malls.
So when you try to challenge me by asking if I purchase food, the answer is yes, but I am trying to make a difference are you?
Finally, when it comes to plants and animals. Yes, plants are alive but they are not sentient beings.
Sentient beings have central nervous systems, so they are aware of pain. Plants are not considered sentient.
It is known that plants are good for us and help us to maintain health and life. The same cannot be said for animal flesh and dairy. They age us and cause disease.
The first vow of a Bodhisattva states: "Sentient beings are numberless; I vow to free them."
There is an extraordinary and unjust imbalance in how things are done, and in how wealth in general is distributed. Meat production sucks, but so do plenty of other humanised and controlled industries.
Even HH the Dalai Lama eats meat, you know....
How do you know plants are not sentient? They do have a prmitive nervous system. So they do feel pain. Explain why plants do better when talked to by people. Plants are always growing and moving. Maybe they are speaking but we just don't hear them? If people were not meant to eat meat then why is it that I am allergic to fruits and vegetables and explain why Elohim has to eat red meat.
I must correct my previous post about eatting red meat. I actually started to do more research about my specific type of anemia, and with the help of another kind researcher, I discovered that cholesterol is exceptionally bad for me. I also learned that foods high in iron, such as red meat, attack my red blood cells and cause great amounts of damage. My anemia is one of the few that requires me to NOT get any iron. I had believed before that I had to eat red meat, but I have since learned that it is not good for me at all. I do still feel better after I eat red meat though, which is odd considering it's more harmful to me than good.
I just thought I should let you all know. In all truth being a vegetarian is much better for me than eatting meat. The extra cholesterol from animal products gives me an increasingly higher risk of developing bilirubin stones, among other things. I still eat meat, but once in a while I try refrain from any at all. My beliefs about eatting met remain the same, however. From a Buddhist standpoint I believe it's ok to not eat meat as equally as it is ok to eat meat.
Jason
We are all far from perfect, and I understand that you feel strongly about not eating meat. Heck, I am Vegan, but I certainly do not expect everyone on here to be Vegan as well. Living a life that is 100% free from harming ANY animals, insects, critters, etc is darn near impossible. I don't think that eating meat makes you a bad person, and I am afraid that your posts here are starting to sounds that way. What do you think about Buddhists in Tibet who must eat meat since they do not have access to all of the fruits and vegetables that we have? We all do our best, and yes, we can all make improvements in our lives, but what is right for you may not be right for other people.
Yes, I am trying to make a difference in this world, but I do not believe that forcing my beliefs on other people is going to make a difference in anyone's life!
The links you provided were great and very helpful. I have seen many of those already. It is great to provide information, but I don't think it is fair to criticize people when they are doing something different than you. My point to you was that you are also doing things in this world that harm insects, animals, etc. We all do.
Hmmm... with the militant Vegan opinions you've been making here - maybe "you" should move to a place where "you" can grow your own food. No one is stopping you. I would think with the statements you've made, you wouldn't let a little thing like "convenience" or "comfort" hinder you from doing what you feel is right.
As for all these internet pages being thrust at us and statements of "design", here's one for you.
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html
As you can see, it's quite easy to just dig up internet pages for just about anything one would wish to.
I think people have posted excellent posts regarding "eating meat" and "vegans". I honestly think people should be given information and then they decide for themselves what works best for them. Forcing or plying people with "guilt" does nothing more than reduce this forum to practices of Christianity - force people to God through guilt.
Or maybe the Vegetarian Inquisition.
-bf
It looks like from your link I am the purest eater on the forum. LOL You must all come to the meat side of the force.
I wouldn't go that far. Stop the crazy talk. :crazy:
I don't even know if the stuff this site has posted is true. Could be a load of hoo-hah for all I know. That's the problem, I believe, with taking someone else's ideas and posting them as fact or the end-all-be-all.
I also think (and have thanked CreativeHeart) for some very informative, thought-provoking articles. Even if only 5% of the information on these pages is true (either due to mis-information - or not providing the other side of the debate) - they are still very informative and thought-provoking.
I just have a hard time with "this is right and that is wrong" or even "i'm right and your wrong". I think each person needs to find what works for them. If by "reasoning" together, we can help each other further our seeking and "awakening" - then that is great. But lately, this seems to be creating more dissention than not.
I think the worst thing about "meat-eating" at this point is how inhumane animals are treated. I mean, in Nature, there are grusome, bloody deaths. Being torn, limb from limb, or a pride of lions gorging on you while you're still alive - can't be fun. But, the lifes and death animals suffer through with "mass" food production is awful because it comes down to one thing....
Money.
The Almighty profit margin. That is what is sad to me.
-bf
If anyone could reach "enlightenment" through meat-eating - it would be you
-bf
I posted these links for educational purposes do with it what you will, but know that your choices do not only effect you!
As for your condescending attitude, I can do without!
Also, I read outside of the Internet how about you?
Based upon your number of posts, it doesn't seem as if you would have the time
That is about all I can say.
Bye!
I believe that you can choose to eat meat or not. Even the Buddha allowed his monks to eat meat. But if a person feels strong compassion for animals and chooses not to eat meat I think that is equally ok, hell it may be even better. I think it's a fine choice as long as they don't get too attached to the idea. Being a vegetarian and holding on to that label, attaching to it like a badge, and criticizing others for not being one burns the mind just as much as fire does a tree. The same goes for the people who eat meat. Neither makes you right, neither makes you wrong.
It's the mind that is important, not so much the body. Please remember that. When you begin to speak harshly, or with judgement that means your mind is already on fire. I have come to learn that Buddhism is meant to quench this fire, not stir it up even more. Sometimes we can become attached to our beliefs and get a little carried away. It happens to me, it happens to you, it happens to all of us. Every once in a while we should stop to reflect a little bit on our intentions and motives.
Watch the mind carefully, it can be tricky. Is it you or is it the kilesas that are speaking?
"This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Monks, there are these three fires. Which three? The fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. These, monks, are the three fires."
The fire of passion burns in a mortal
excited, smitten
with sensual desires;
the fire of aversion, in a malevolent person
taking life;
the fire of delusion, in a bewildered person
ignorant
of the noble teaching.
Not understanding these fires, people
-- fond of self-identity --
unreleased from Mara's shackles,
swell the ranks of hell,
the wombs of common animals, demons,
the realm of the hungry shades.
While those who, day & night,
are devoted
to the teachings
of the rightly self-awakened,
put out the fire of passion,
constantly perceiving the foul.
They, superlative people,
put out the fire of aversion
with good will,
and the fire of delusion
with the discernment leading
to penetration.
They, the masterful, by night & day,
having put out [the fires],
having, without remainder,
comprehended stress,
are, without remainder,
totally unbound.
They, the wise, with an attainer-of-wisdom's
noble vision,
right gnosis,
directly knowing
the ending of birth,
come to no further becoming.
~ Itivuttaka 93
CreativeHeart, if you are still "lurking" and reading responses, come back and continue discussion. Whatever people's opinions are, it's all still a wonderful learning-curve....
Again... Hmmm... my condescending attitude? But the rest of us ~have~ to listen to your condescending attitutude and excuses. Interesting.
I believe you posted these links for educational purposes. I also believe that, in the course of this thread, I thanked you for posting them a couple of times. I believe I told you that I found them very informative and thought provoking. And they were!
Yes, I read outside of the internet. I don't recall there ever being a discussion on this thread about what material I read outside of the internet. Did I miss something?
"Based upon the number of my posts" - I don't know what to say to this.
How do you know what I have going on in my life? I do a many, many things. Work, golf, music, recording, studio musician, spend every moment I can with my son, exercise, read, etc. Another instance of taking a vague statement and making a 'truth' out of it.
I just thought, as did other people out here, that some of the views you were expressing (not the great links you provided) were a little condescending to the other people out here.
If an apology will make it so that CreativeHeart will continue to participate in this forum, then I sincerely apologize. My intent was not to drive someone away.
I don't know what else to say.
-bf
P.S. But, since I have nothing else going on in my life (except newbuddhist.com) - I'll take a look around and see what other threads have been posted!
It wasn't the links that caused a problem - it was the comments that came along with those links. It is ok to feel strongly about something, but IMO, it is not ok to make others feel terrible for living a life that is different than yours. I have never felt that Buddhafoot had a condescending attitude, but I immediately felt that way with you. No need for personal attakcs on this forum.
And if you feel that you need to leave this forum because of a rough start, then will you have learned anything? Probably not....stick around and see what happens! We are a very nice group.
Very well said again, Elohim.