My ethnic origin seems to be a handicap

betaboy

I am of Persian origin - this is annoying as people seem to be focusing on this exclusively. It happened in schools/colleges, and now in work. It is annoying because it is not explicitly racist. Since it is more subtle you cant even complain. I find it hard to practice right speech or whatever the f*** that is when I feel like punching those who keep obsessing over my ethnicity.

There ... I feel so much better now.

BhikkhuJayasara

Do you have lots of gold chains? My people(italians) and your people dress similarly LOL.. Also glasses and uh stylish clothing..

The natural process of the mind is to judge and critique everything. This is part of what kept our species alive. People make judgments based on every aspect of this being called you. When you practice dhamma youll come to realize this and not have aversions to it.

matthewmartin

Where do you live?

Anyhow, I read a story once about a family facing harassment and discrimination in the US because they were Asian. The "right" thing to do is to not give into harassment since it's illegal. But also the "right" thing to do is to not engage in pointless battles. Taking a housing discrimination case all the way to the supreme court has a point, a noble cause. Just suffering quietly has no point. Anyhow, this particular family moved and the article said the owner though 'one should go to where one is loved', which makes sense. Are you dealing with people on the edge-- who would be convinced that Persians are cool, but they just are unfamiliar with them? Then engage & stick around. Are you dealing with people who see the fight against "the alien & exotic" as part of their essential identity? Not much you can do about them, they have a long path to walk towards becoming a better person, not much you can do to help them. In that case, move on to "where you are loved".

betaboy

I can't explain it. It is not racism as in hatred - but more like I am seen as some kind of exotic creature. That is pretty annoying, makes me feel awkward. It dehumanizes me.

I want to be treated like a person, not like some exotic object (even though the women feel like they're complimenting me in so doing). The flirting is fine, but it eventually comes back to "oh, you're Persian, can easily tell from that exotic look," etc. etc.

As to where I live, I keep traveling to many countries - I am a business analyst, currently on a project in India. But it is the same story in other places too, like Australia, Europe, etc. I've been to many of those places. It is like meeting the same people, actually.

MaryAnne

Sounds to me like you're tooting your own horn ;-) ... but making it sound like it's all a big hassle for you.

Why do you feel it dehumanizes you? You don't have to see it that way you know... your perceptions are yours. Don't project.

Come on, you ARE 'exotic' to most people outside of your cultural roots.
You ARE different. People ARE interested... so what?
Share with people when they ask questions, and correct them (nicely!) when they may say something in error about your ethnicity.... that's how people learn about others. Maybe they find you incredibly good looking! Why so defensive?

betaboy

MaryAnne said:

Maybe they find you incredibly good looking!

This is most likely true, lol, but it still doesn't give them the right to call me Persian. How would you feel if people could only look at you as an American and not as a human being first and foremost?

vinlyn

betaboy said:

This is most likely true, lol, but it still doesn't give them the right to call me Persian. How would you feel if people could only look at you as an American and not as a human being first and foremost?

Having spent so much time, including having lived in Thailand, I was seen as exotic and interesting. I rather enjoyed it. Opened up lots of interesting conversations and led to a number of good friendships.

Viva la difference! It makes the world more interesting!

Jainarayan

MaryAnne said:

Come on, you ARE 'exotic' to most people outside of your cultural roots.
You ARE different. People ARE interested... so what?
Share with people when they ask questions, and correct them (nicely!) when they may say something in error about your ethnicity.... that's how people learn about others. Maybe they find you incredibly good looking! Why so defensive?

betaboy said:

This is most likely true, lol, but it still doesn't give them the right to call me Persian. How would you feel if people could only look at you as an American and not as a human being first and foremost?

What @MaryAnne said.

People are fascinated by those they deem "exotic", especially if the person in question has such a long, vast and important history as the Persians, but really is not well known. We've been conditioned in the past few decades to be politically correct and deny people's differences. Bullcrap I say... people are different, and those differences should be celebrated, not shoved into a closet (closets are highly over rated anyway ).

vinlyn

This thread gives me an opportunity to ask something I have long wondered.

Why do people in your ethnic group, Betaboy, refer to themselves as Persians, rather than Iranians?

matthewmartin

betaboy said:

This is most likely true, lol, but it still doesn't give them the right to call me Persian. How would you feel if people could only look at you as an American and not as a human being first and foremost?

Sounds like Hindu chauvinism? I read the book "Dreaming in Hindi" and it appears to be a serious element in India at the moment-- nationalism, ethonocentrism, etc.

I spent some time in Russia where they got a serious Russian-chauvinism thing going on, so they are constantly thinking about patriotism, where they rank relative to other ethnic groups, how great it is to be Russian and so on. So when you're dealing with them it can get annoying and tedious-- amongst Russians, the chauvinism binds friends together, in a mixed crowd, the chauvinism is a constant reminder that "we are superior, you are inferior, etc"

There is actually a reasonable Buddhist antidote for this-- I don't particularly care for radical non-dualism-- but the practice of de-emphasizing superficial differences is useful. If you don't see a difference between your ethnicity and theirs, they you're all in the same club (we're all cousins if we trace our family trees back far enough), we all are subject to change, samsara, and eventual death. So if you realize that in a way, we're all the same (or highly similar), then you're free of having to fret over who's better, who's worse. And for other people who are unlikely to come to a similar realization anytime soon, you try to imaginatively put yourself in their position-- they are deluded by thinking they have an ethnic identity and have to spend endless effort maintaining it or they will lose their identity and be no one-- worse than just disappearing from the universe. Seeing people deluded about the world, you feel sorry for them, i.e. feel some compassion for their plight. It's hard to be angry at people you feel sorry for. And that frees you from the anger bit, which isn't helping you achieve anything.

betaboy

vinlyn said:

This thread gives me an opportunity to ask something I have long wondered.

Why do people in your ethnic group, Betaboy, refer to themselves as Persians, rather than Iranians?

We don't call ourselves Iranians simply because we arent born or brought up there - Iranian could be confused with the nationality of Iran, whereas Persian refers to ethnic origin only, regardless of where you're born. Also the language is Farsi, not Arabic, so 'Arab' is also a misnomer. Finally, religion - many of us are Zoroastrians, at least nominally, but Iran and Islam have become synonymous, so that's also a problem to be avoided.

BhikkhuJayasara

betaboy said:

vinlyn said:

This thread gives me an opportunity to ask something I have long wondered.

Why do people in your ethnic group, Betaboy, refer to themselves as Persians, rather than Iranians?

We don't call ourselves Iranians simply because we arent born or brought up there - Iranian could be confused with the nationality of Iran, whereas Persian refers to ethnic origin only, regardless of where you're born. Also the language is Farsi, not Arabic, so 'Arab' is also a misnomer. Finally, religion - many of us are Zoroastrians, at least nominally, but Iran and Islam have become synonymous, so that's also a problem to be avoided.

Please state otherwise if im misinformed but from the limited persian experiences ive had, persian people are very big on their history, which goes back to the dawn of civilization. And yes never call them arab haha.

I love cultures that hold on to their ancient history like that(china and india are others), but thats the anthropologist in me talking.

MaryAnne

"How would you feel if people could only look at you as an American and not as a human being first and foremost?"

Please... that happens ALL THE TIME! lol Seriously, even in this forum there are many comments or threads started with words like "you Americans...." or "Why do all Americans....".
But let me say this- "American" is not an ethnicity. It's a nationality.
Please excuse my ignorance, sincerely, I'm just asking because I don't know -- is "Persian" an ethnicity- or a nationality? There is a difference, no?

MaryAnne

betaboy said:

vinlyn said:

This thread gives me an opportunity to ask something I have long wondered.

Why do people in your ethnic group, Betaboy, refer to themselves as Persians, rather than Iranians?

We don't call ourselves Iranians simply because we arent born or brought up there - Iranian could be confused with the nationality of Iran, whereas Persian refers to ethnic origin only, regardless of where you're born. Also the language is Farsi, not Arabic, so 'Arab' is also a misnomer. Finally, religion - many of us are Zoroastrians, at least nominally, but Iran and Islam have become synonymous, so that's also a problem to be avoided.

I didn't know all that. I'm sure there may be others here reading your post that didn't know all or part of that information you just shared. This is why it's better to share, and explain, than to resent anyone having an interest....

betaboy

MaryAnne said:

betaboy said:

vinlyn said:

This thread gives me an opportunity to ask something I have long wondered.

Why do people in your ethnic group, Betaboy, refer to themselves as Persians, rather than Iranians?

We don't call ourselves Iranians simply because we arent born or brought up there - Iranian could be confused with the nationality of Iran, whereas Persian refers to ethnic origin only, regardless of where you're born. Also the language is Farsi, not Arabic, so 'Arab' is also a misnomer. Finally, religion - many of us are Zoroastrians, at least nominally, but Iran and Islam have become synonymous, so that's also a problem to be avoided.

I didn't know all that. I'm sure there may be others here reading your post that didn't know all or part of that information you just shared. This is why it's better to share, and explain, than to resent anyone having an interest....

Problem is, I have no interest in my culture/race, whatever, so when others act all interested I get annoyed. Suppose you have no interest in the history of, say the civil war in the US, but I keep harping on slavery, Lincoln, and so on ... won't you be annoyed?

I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. I call myself human, Persian is just incidental, so why harp on it and make me feel uncomfortable?

MaryAnne

First- No one is making you feel uncomfortable. That is not their intent, it's your own reaction to deal with. The reason you feel uncomfortable is because you ARE uncomfortable with your own ethnicity -- for whatever deep-rooted reasons you may have. People don't know that. No one can read your mind or know your hidden feelings. Again, that is projecting.

Second- asking about the civil war would be a nationalist thing, a political thing, a military thing... it's not personal, like a person's ethnicity or cultural background. I don't get why you would compare the two.

I'm Italian, but born in America. Like I said, some people may think "American" is an ethnic identification, but it's not, unless you are a Native America tribe member. But generally speaking even that isn't commonly referred to as being 'American". It's strictly a term of national citizenship.

If someone had not had much experience meeting Italian Americans, or Italians from anywhere, and they asked about my family's cultural roots and differences I would be pleased to share. But then I do have a level of cultural pride (well, at least I have no shame) in being of Italian heritage, so I enjoy sharing with others that information and asking about their heritages in return. ::: shrugs:::

You shouldn't blame others for your own issues with being who or what you are.

MaryAnne

OK, well if it's a matter of you wishing not to acknowledge your cultural / ethnic background to anyone under any circumstances...that is certainly your choice.

I'd be interested to know how you will convey that to others without coming off as rude, elusive or superior. Any examples what you'd like to say to people?

vinlyn

I am reminded of a conversation (actually several conversations) I had with my adopted son who is Pakistani. I said something one night about him being Arab and he really went off on how Pakistanis are Asian, not Arab.

I guess it depends a lot on how you look at a national group. By physical boundaries or cultural boundaries, or some other criteria.

Zero

betaboy said:

Problem is, I have no interest in my culture/race, whatever, so when others act all interested I get annoyed.
Suppose you have no interest in the history of, say the civil war in the US, but I keep harping on slavery, Lincoln, and so on ... won't you be annoyed?
I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. I call myself human, Persian is just incidental, so why harp on it and make me feel uncomfortable?

Would you say you're naturally a 'quiet' person? Maybe people always feel they have to find a topic of conversation and the easiest one is staring them in the face.
Perhaps your culture is interesting and you're meeting people who haven't met someone with your culture before and they're genuinely interested - from the horse's mouth so to speak.
Social exchanges aren't necessarily there to serve one's own feelings - by design or necessity we are thrust together and cooperation is give and take - the exchanges you describe aren't intentionally hurtful - the intention is to build bridges and one follows in the spirit of that with or without language - it sort of starts with a smile and cascades from there- lighten up, share and the conversation moves on.
Irony is, even if you moved to iran, you'd be an exotic foreign iranian!

lobster

I am of Persian origin - this is annoying

Poor thing.

I wonder what dire obstacles, impediments and bad karma you will come up with tomorrow? Maybe we have uncovered a pattern? You are the most disadvantaged potential dukkha overcomer you have ever come across.

Aren't you growing a little tired of being [insert latest obstacle]? Is whinging a Persian tradition?

No. :nyah:

vinlyn

On the one hand, terribly harshly worded.
On the other hand, worth considering, OP.

Jeffrey

I doubt you can stop being viewed exotic unless you specifically mention to friends not to do that.

Linc

@lobster So you're saying you're Caucasian, then? :nyah:

Dennis1

betaboy said:

I am of Persian origin - this is annoying as people seem to be focusing on this exclusively. It happened in schools/colleges, and now in work. It is annoying because it is not explicitly racist. Since it is more subtle you
cant even complain. I find it hard to practice right speech or whatever the f*** that is when I feel like punching those who keep obsessing over my ethnicity.
There ... I feel so much better now.

Hi Betaboy: I din't know you were Persian. FYI Tibetans claim their origin from Persia.
Also prior to the battle of Kadisya about 637 AD, the Persians were Zorastrian
and worshipped Ahura Masda. They basically worshipped the Sun (fire) and were an agricultural people. After a forced conversion the Persians now Iran, became one of the centers for Islam. So when you say you are Persian that seems a little duplicitous since
there are so few around now. However if you are Persian then you are not Muslim and that makes sense since any Buddhists in Iran would be executed. I assume you are saying you are Buddhist. You can see how there might be apprehension about Persian Buddhists I guess. Also I assume you don't live in Iran.

You might save yourself some grief if you claimed you were from wherever you live now.
Muslims consider Buddhist (all of them ) atheists, and the Koran commands to kill all atheists. So maybe you could cut Buddhists who don't know Persian history a little slack.
Where do you live now? Good luck in your endeavors.

Steve_B

Can you change the fact that you are of Persian descent?

Can you change the fact that your ethnicity is visible in your appearance to those around you?

Can you change the fact that their responses are determined by experiences and orientation acquired long before they met you?

Can you change how you yourself respond?


You will have to determine where the actual problem lies, before you can determine whether or how to solve it -- or if there even really is a "problem."

Zero

Dennis1 said:

...that makes sense since any Buddhists in Iran would be executed.
Muslims consider Buddhist (all of them ) atheists, and the Koran commands to kill all atheists.

???
Bewildering

betaboy

Thanks all, I guess I should change myself rather than expect others not to act immaturely. However, I am shocked that even in the 21st century people obsess over race and stuff - I am not ashamed of my origin, just that it means nothing to me. It is incidental, I might as well have been Ethiopian or Russian, no big deal.

As Buddhists, shouldn't we get rid of emotional attachment to labels? So when people keep harping on Persian this, Persian that, you start feeling like an item, an object, rather than as a person. I am sure at least a few can see where I am coming from.

Dennis1

Zero said:

Dennis1 said:

...that makes sense since any Buddhists in Iran would be executed.
Muslims consider Buddhist (all of them ) atheists, and the Koran commands to kill all
atheists.

???
Bewildering

Yes indeed. Hard to understand that kind of stuff in a holy book They are called the Sword Verses. especially hard for a Buddhist who looks to practice human kindness.
History has some hard lessons. Bewildering indeed.

vinlyn

betaboy said:

Thanks all, I guess I should change myself rather than expect others not to act immaturely. However, I am shocked that even in the 21st century people obsess over race and stuff - I am not ashamed of my origin, just that it means nothing to me. It is incidental, I might as well have been Ethiopian or Russian, no big deal.

As Buddhists, shouldn't we get rid of emotional attachment to labels? So when people keep harping on Persian this, Persian that, you start feeling like an item, an object, rather than as a person. I am sure at least a few can see where I am coming from.

I can understand what you mean about your heritage meaning nothing to you. My ancestry is Irish, and I don't connect with that at all. Neither did my father's generation. And even my grandparents rarely spoke about it. It had nothing to do with who I was.

Of course, some have negative attitudes toward various ethnicity. I, on the other hand, find culture infinitely interesting...hence all my time in Thailand, and shorter jaunts in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, and Burma. I loved spending time with our English-As-A-Second-Language students and their families, but that didn't mean that I peppered them with questions...unless they invited it.

If I were you, I'd ask why people are always "harping" to you about it. That seems odd.

Dennis1

betaboy said:
Problem is, I have no interest in my culture/race, whatever, so when others act all interested I get annoyed.
Suppose you have no interest in the history of, say the civil war in the US, but I keep harping on slavery, Lincoln, and so on ... won't you be annoyed?
I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. I call myself human, Persian is just incidental, so why harp on it and make me feel uncomfortable

I think you are correct. Why would you expect others to give up their fears and prejudice? Do you advertise that you are Persian? I mean Most people couldn't tell a Hindu from a Persian. Do you push it and then try to test peoples willingness to take notice. You seem like a nice person. Surely in this Buddhist venue there is no reason
to push the fact that you are a Persian. You didn't answer my questions are you living in Iran? Are you a Muslim? If not why be concerned at all. Of course people are bigoted and fearful and prejudiced. I am very prejudiced against Muslims. I figure if I was in their country and they knew I was a Buddhist, the state apparatus would execute me and all of the onlookers would cheer. But I didn't know your ethnicity why push it? If you are a Muslim why are you on this site?

You made a comment on my post which makes me think you are a Buddhist. It was an excellent quote and very relative to bewilderment. Thank you for that. I don't understand your post here. Of course we all suffer from the stains on the path. I hope you can rise above this hurt in your life. Stop harping on it-it seems to make you uncomfortable. Best

Zero

betaboy said:

As Buddhists, shouldn't we get rid of emotional attachment to labels?
So when people keep harping on Persian this, Persian that, you start feeling like an item, an object, rather than as a person.

If the first sentence were true then it would be in conflict with the second.
If you rid yourself of emotional attachment to labels then would you not feel a person irrespective?
In that light, these people are doing you a favour by bringing the trait to your attention.

Dennis1 said:

I am very prejudiced against Muslims.
I figure if I was in their country and they knew I was a Buddhist, the state apparatus would execute me and all of the onlookers would cheer.
If you are a Muslim why are you on this site?

Prejudice is not, in my mind, something to promote.
You should re-examine the conflict.

Kundo

betaboy said:

MaryAnne said:

Maybe they find you incredibly good looking!

This is most likely true, lol, but it still doesn't give them the right to call me Persian. How would you feel if people could only look at you as an American and not as a human being first and foremost?

Um actually if you ARE Persian and/or born of Persian parents then they can say you're Persian. I fail to understand your anger if you are not experiencing discrimination or harrassment. The politically correct term is American Persian.

It's funny, when it comes to sport, everyone is all of a sudden Italian, Greek, French etc :P

lobster

Lincoln said:

@lobster So you're saying you're Caucasian, then? :nyah:

I consider myself a pale African. European by birth. American by indoctrination. As an honorary Jew and a non practicing Muslim, I am a woman given the right hormones, I think I may be a little Persian by inclination, with Borg tendencies . . . etc. etc.
. . . wait a minute . . . I feel the 'heart sutra arising' . . . we are not our 'identity' . . .

Body is nothing more than emptiness,
emptiness is nothing more than body.
The body is exactly empty,
and emptiness is exactly body.
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heartsutra.html

Sorry for any confusion
:scratch:

robot

Bringing emptiness into the discussion might be going too far but I'm going to have to give lobster the benefit of the doubt this time.
Betaboy has been doing a lot of crying for a guy with a good job that takes him all over the world and looks that the women find exotic.

betaboy

robot said:

Bringing emptiness into the discussion might be going too far but I'm going to have to give lobster the benefit of the doubt this time.
Betaboy has been doing a lot of crying for a guy with a good job that takes him all over the world and looks that the women find exotic.

Maybe you don't understand this, but I don't want to be any girl's 'ethnic fetish'. I want to be her one true love. I know, I know, I am a silly romantic, but that's how it is.

lamaramadingdong

I'm Scandinavian and I don't get upset about most things, unless someone mixes two of the wrong kinds of Jello together.

vinlyn

betaboy said:

Maybe you don't understand this, but I don't want to be any girl's 'ethnic fetish'. I want to be her one true love. I know, I know, I am a silly romantic, but that's how it is.

Nom it's not being a silly romantic. But think how lucky you are. If that's how she looks at you, then you immediately know she's not the right one for you. If only all the flaws (if that is a flaw) that a person has were that evident.

And the reason I ask it that is a flaw is -- do you prefer a beautiful girl or an ugly girl? If you prefer a beautiful girl -- which is not unreasonable -- then one could say that you, too, have a fetish...for beauty/attractiveness as compared to ethnic-preference. We all have our preferences when it comes to dating and marriage.

Zero

betaboy said:

I want to be her one true love.
I know, I know, I am a silly romantic, but that's how it is.

So what happens when it's not the 'one' and not 'true'?
It doesn't necessarily have to remain that way.
Other people can't do it for you.

betaboy

vinlyn said:

betaboy said:

Maybe you don't understand this, but I don't want to be any girl's 'ethnic fetish'. I want to be her one true love. I know, I know, I am a silly romantic, but that's how it is.

Nom it's not being a silly romantic. But think how lucky you are. If that's how she looks at you, then you immediately know she's not the right one for you. If only all the flaws (if that is a flaw) that a person has were that evident.

And the reason I ask it that is a flaw is -- do you prefer a beautiful girl or an ugly girl? If you prefer a beautiful girl -- which is not unreasonable -- then one could say that you, too, have a fetish...for beauty/attractiveness as compared to ethnic-preference. We all have our preferences when it comes to dating and marriage.

There is certainly a diff. between preference and fetish. Preferences are healthy. A fetish is not. And ethnic fetish is particularly dehumanizing.

MaryAnne

@betaboy...
Has anyone come up to you to say:
"Hey baby, I have a ethnic fetish, and you, my little Persian Love-Doll are my cup of Tea!!" ??

You are labeling (and making assumptions about) others;
you have no reason to think they are sexually labeling you or chasing you as an ethnic fetish.
You still don't see that, do you?

Unless of course, not only are you unusually handsome, but completely, and uncontrollably irresistible- with mystical Svengali like powers that you just can't turn off....
And if so, please send me your picture in private messages!

betaboy

MaryAnne said:

@betaboy...
Has anyone come up to you to say:
"Hey baby, I have a ethnic fetish, and you, my little Persian Love-Doll are my cup of Tea!!" ??

You are labeling (and making assumptions about) others;
you have no reason to think they are sexually labeling you or chasing you as an ethnic fetish.
You still don't see that, do you?

Unless of course, not only are you unusually handsome, but completely, and uncontrollably irresistible- with mystical Svengali like powers that you just can't turn off....
And if so, please send me your picture in private messages!

It has nothing to do with looks and everything to do with how mainstream society views the exotic. You won't acknowledge this cuz you're mainstream. I just wish you'd walk in my shoes for a while.........

Anyway, my current project is in India, and the Hindu women are literally throwing themselves at me (and I thought Hindus were conservative, lol). That's why I concluded it was a fetish since there are other better looking people around.

MaryAnne

@Betaboy,
Well, I tried to lighten it up a bit - apparently you missed that. So...........

How do you know I'm mainstream? I deal with bias and bigotry every single day of my life - as soon as I step out of my home - based on my looks.
But that is not the point.

You are whining about a "problem" that most people would trade for in a New York second. You're dealing with "flirting" and women chasing you ALL because you're Persian?? Seriously?
Please... move on already.

The answer you're looking for is "stop clinging" & "no judgement" - very Buddhist, would't you say?

betaboy

Let's just agree to disagree. Metta to you. :om:

footiam

betaboy said:

I am of Persian origin - this is annoying as people seem to be focusing on this exclusively. It happened in schools/colleges, and now in work. It is annoying because it is not explicitly racist. Since it is more subtle you cant even complain. I find it hard to practice right speech or whatever the f*** that is when I feel like punching those who keep obsessing over my ethnicity.

There ... I feel so much better now.

Since you cannot practise right speech, you can practise right thought instead.

AllbuddhaBound

Not to worry about that exotic thing. Put some years and pounds on and you will be lamenting the fact that it won't come back.

betaboy

AllbuddhaBound said:

Not to worry about that exotic thing. Put some years and pounds on and you will be lamenting the fact that it won't come back.

Already there - I have a beer belly, lol.

BhikkhuJayasara

I need to find some chics who have an "ethnic fettish" for italian guys who are also 1/16th Cherokee lol. Sounds fun to me :P

Chaz

betaboy said:

Maybe you don't understand this, but I don't want to be any girl's 'ethnic fetish'. I want to be her one true love. I know, I know, I am a silly romantic, but that's how it is.

Personally, I think you're underestimating the ethnic fetish angle.

Any port in a storm........

Steve_B

We are all at different points in our journey toward maturity.

betaboy

Can the moderators please lock this thread? Thanks.

lobster

betaboy said:

Can the moderators please lock this thread? Thanks.

I feel like punching those who keep obsessing over my ethnicity.

Typical of [insert ethnicity of choice] ?
:buck: