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Death in the Middle East
Simonthepilgrim
Veteran
The news has just come through that President Saddam Hussein has been found guilty at his trial. No surprise there, then.
Alas, not enough Iraqis have died so he and his co-conspirators have been sentenced to death.
Without wishing to upset those members who come from those backward-looking places which still slaughter convicted criminals. I would ask all those who hold to the Buddha's precept not to take life to join me in prayer and petition that the 'Coalition of the Willing' may show their humanity and bring pressure to bear on the Iraqi authorities to commute this sentence. Mr Hussein could become a symbol of rebuilding were he put to work rather than being reduced to ashes.
Alas, not enough Iraqis have died so he and his co-conspirators have been sentenced to death.
Without wishing to upset those members who come from those backward-looking places which still slaughter convicted criminals. I would ask all those who hold to the Buddha's precept not to take life to join me in prayer and petition that the 'Coalition of the Willing' may show their humanity and bring pressure to bear on the Iraqi authorities to commute this sentence. Mr Hussein could become a symbol of rebuilding were he put to work rather than being reduced to ashes.
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Comments
I'll pray with you.
The "joke" went like this: Having been sentenced to death, Adolf Eichmann asks to become a Jew. He does all the necessary, is circumcised and, a day or two before his execution, becomes a Jew. His last words, as the trap drops on the scaffold are: "One more!"
As my Yorkshire friends would say: "Think on!"
Thank you.
Hi, Simon.
How are you? It's been awhile.
Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand....
I have to say that considering the atrocities that Saddam Hussein committed, it is a mite hard for me to pray for for Mr. Hussein's sentence to be changed from death. Upon reflection, though, and since I am a Buddhist, I shall join you in prayer about this. If Mr. Hussein could be used as a symbol of rebuilding as you put it instead of being reduced to ashes, then I think that would be a good start. Your post has also caused me to reflect on my own needs for attitude change. That's a good thing, too. Thank you.
Adiana:usflag:
::
Like it or not, there are, and can be no exceptions. The Buddha gave us recommendations, not suggestions.....
Count me in Simon.
Martin.
But to me, how are we to know if he really is genuinely repenting or must we open our hearts and look beyond the dark persona and see his good side, that maybe he really is willing to repent?
But even on this issue, which I have once dwelled upon, I cannot decide if I want Saddam to live, or him to die to appease the thousands of Iraqis who expect his death - as a Buddhist, and also as an individual.
I am wondering, if this might help my thought processes, the value of repentance- if Saddam, instead of being commuted and have him repent after it all, were to have his sins commuted in the medium-term, then repent sincerely, only to at the very end, willingly walk up to the gallows and asked to be hanged for his past.
My question:If in some other parallel world with different laws, the judge states that he is to be hanged, but only after realising his faults and repent for them. How will this change the entire value of his repentance?
Back into our own world, even for the deadliest and most foolhardy of all criminals who will never repent, must we spare them the death sentence, when their very existence alone threatens an entire society's cohesion, and their mere thoughts are filled with deep hatred, greed and ignorance?
This reminds me of one of the Buddha's past lives, where the Buddha had been on-board this ship, and he uncovered this plot by this evil man who was conspiring to murder all the other merchants on-board the ship and loot their valuables all away.
To save this man from all the "bad karma" he would be responsible for for killing the hundreds, the Buddha made a move first. Before the evil man could even start on his massacre, he took matters into his own hands to kill the former himself, in an attempt to rather place the "bad karma" of one murder onto the Buddha himself, than to have that man carry the "bad karma" of a hundred murders onto the latter for many lifetimes.
Food for thought.
Putting thse criminals to work, perhaps in the refugee camps or the hospitals as porters, would impose benificent actions on them.
Ajani: we have similar myths in the Christian body of stories. I find them repellent because they suggest that a person's future is fixed and the 'good' intervene by breaking their own rules. This is an example of the maxim that something is good or bad because a particular saint/god/angel/bodhisattva does it or refuses to do it, rather than based on underlying moral imperatives. Imagine that you or your child is the person thus slain because, at some time in the future, they might act badly... is this the sort of metaphysical world you want to inhabit?
I shall be spending an hour in meditation and ritual tomorrow, from noon GMT, including a memorial of the Last Supper, for the commutation of all capital sentences handed down and not yet carried out. May I join the names of all of you who have responded here in my offering?
By all means, Simon.
I've started a new thread, too.....
On the question of Saddam's "repentance" I have little hope that he will "repent". Though it's worth nothing that in what we in the UK call the "troubles" in Northern Ireland, a number of IRA terrorists did become convinced whilst in prison that there was a better way than killing and became influential voices in the "Peace Process" there, so there is always hope. But if killing is "wrong", not compassionate, or simply unskillful, it's wrong, not compassionate and unskillfull whatever the state of mind of our victim, surely?
Besides which, is it more likely that Saddam's supporters will think (a) Oh well, Saddam has been executed, best we pack the killing in and take part in the democratic process; or (b) Saddam is a martyr whose death needs to be avenged or exploited for propoganda purposes to incite more to kill and maim?
Shakespeare wrote "We but teach bloody instructions which, being taught, Return to plague the inventor, This even handed justice, commends the ingriedients of our posioned challice, To our own lips". Iraq suggests to me that this is as true as ever.
Martin.
Preparing the table, lighting the candles and incense, laying out the offerings.
(Music: Officium Jan Garbarek and the Hilliard Ensemble)
"Introit" or opening invocation:
"With clasped hands I entreat the perfectly Enlightened Ones who stand in all regions that they kindle the lamp of the Law for those who in their blindness fall into sorrow.
With clasped hands I pray the Conquerors who yearn for the Stillness (Nirvana) that they abide here for endless aeons, lest this world become blind.
In reward for all the righteousness that I may have won by my works may I become a soother of all the sorrows of all creatures.
May I be a balm to the sick, their healer and servant, until sickness never come again; may I quench with rains of food and drink the anguish of hunger and thirst; may I become an unfailing store for the poor, and serve them with manifold things for their need."
(from The Path of Light - a translation of the Bodhicharyavatara of Santideva by L. D. Barnett)
Silence
Readings: (Each is read, aloud, twice, followed by silence for reflection)
1.
"Justice is often thought to be the greatest of virtues, but not absolutely, but in relation to our neighbour. And therefore justice is often thought to be the greatest of virtues, and 'neither evening nor morning star' is so wonderful; and proverbially 'in justice is every virtue comprehended'. And it is complete virtue in its fullest sesne beacause it is the actual exercise of complete virtue.(V.1)
The equitable is just - not the legally just but a correction of legal justice. (V.10)"
(from The Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle - David Ross translation)
2.
"A faithful friend is a secure shelter;
whoever finds one, finds a treasure.
A faithful friend is beyond price;
their is no measure of their worth.
A faithful friend is an eleixir of life."
(Ecclesiasticus 6:14-16)
[Here we name all those who are joining us in spirit and in love]
3.An Ancient Gaelic Prayer
God, omit not this man from Thy covenant,
And the many evils which he in the body committed,
That he cannot, this night, enumerate.
The many evils that he in the body committed,
That he cannot, this night, enumerate.
Be this soul on Thine own arm, O Christ,
Thou King of the City of Heaven,
And since Thine it was, O Christ, to buy the soul,
At the time of the balancing of the beam,
At the time of the bringing in the judgment,
Be it now on Thine own right hand,
Oh! on Thine own right hand.
And be the holy Michael, king of angels,
Coming to meet the soul,
And leading it home
To the heaven of the Son of God
The holy Michael, high king of angels,
Coming to meet the soul,
And leading it home
To the heaven of the Son of God.
COMMEMORATION OF THE LAST SUPPER
Music: Listen by the Monks of Weston Priory
Text: according to the Didache.
Followed by silent shared meal, during which The Pairs from the Dhammapada will be read, in turn, aloud, by each person there.
When I was watching the part of Saddam Hussein's trial when the verdict was read and I saw that although he was still defiant, he was also visibly shaken, something opened in me and despite everything I'm aware of that he's perpetrated, I felt very sorry for him. There is something in his eyes that looks clouded and a bit mad and I can't help wondering if he is in possession of all his faculties. I imagined that man being hanged and knew clearly that it will be so very wrong and that as you said, Simon, something much more positive could be accomplished without executing him. It's all so barbaric and shoddy, this dirty vengeance. It's a sorry thing and a shameful missed opportunity. As Fede pointed out in the other thread, where is this so called "modern world" we speak of all the time? Because the whole world IS watching and we are all a part of this mangled "justice", even as disempowered observers. It doesn't take much to revert, does it? This "modern civilization" isn't as stable as we think it is.
Simon: Thank you for doing this; it was very beautiful indeed.
If he is allowed to live, he will work to regain power sooner or later. He has shown himself capable of terrible revenge in the past.
Sorry, but I have to dissent and say that he needs to go. If there were a reliable way to exile him, I would favor that instead, but I am not confident that that would work.
Still, I wish the US didn't have to take such moves in the first place. If only we could have averted this war...
Too bad we don't know how Saddam feels. Maybe to him, death would not be suffering. He always looks like he's suffering when I see him on t.v. Still, I can't advocate Saddam's death sentence, but I do understand the reasons why others are in favor of it.
Whatever our opinions, we all can pray for the end of suffering.
Welcome, Gerald.
I doubt whether you will fiund many here who support the non-war (It is not a war: our troops are not being paid or taxed as if at war so it can't be) Of course, if it isn't a war, what is it? It ain't chopped liver.
As for Saddam's possibly regaining power, I think that it is a dangerous path to take if we are to punish people for what they might, just possibly, do in the future.
I do accept that there is a deep divide between attitudes on either side of the Atlantic about the death penalty. Perhaps the fact that our continent saw so many millions die in the Twentieth Century War has skewed our perception.
The Buddha and many Buddhist teachers have urged us to see all sentient beings as having been our own mother. I don't enjoy the thought of her standing on a platform, with the rough rope chafing her neck, a bag over her head, her hands pinioned behind her, waiting for the last sound she will hear: the rattle as the trap falls away under her feet. To me, desiring such a fate for any living being is repellent. I must, however, accept that there are many people who want to inflict such things on their brothers and sisters. I pray, regularly, that their eye of compassion may be opened, their heart moved and their stomach turned at the prospect.
It is ironic that we, as Europeans, have forbidden ourselves the luxury of extradicting criminals back to some parts of the USA because they still kill people judicially. Ironic, I say, because some (now obsolete?) US document speaks of a "Right to Life". Ah well! Fine words butter no parsnips.
But there is!
The Holy Q'ran (quoted the other day by the Archbishop of Canterbury) speaks of saving one life as saving the world. Each person is a unique universe, of equal value with any other life.
"the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few" thats from star trek 4.. as i remember
if it comes down to 10 men starving or 1000 men starving.. then the 1000 men live.. thats pretty much what it is. I know there is no indivisable good, but surely those 1000 are a higher priorty
If saddam is allowed to live, the represcussions could affect a lot more than if he died. His living presence could influence more attacks and killings. So in terms of the greater good, Saddam is probably better off dead.
As for the war, it was based on hoaxes and frauds from the beginning, but that is a seperate issue.
Although I do not follow the Qur'an, this does help explain to me why Saddam was given the death penalty.
``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased.
``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased.
Since Saddam obviously is not a threat any more and under control of the victors, I can`t imagine any other motive for death penalty than hatred and delusion. People in favor of it are likely to accumulate some kamma for animal or hell realms.
Yes, that is true. Saddam is not from or in a Buddhist country though. He is in an Islamic country, and it seems that the Qur'an supports death "in the course of justice."
It is difficult for me to know in this case whether or not the motives are hatred and delusion. I think that my knowledge of Islam is far too limited to make any sort of conclusion.
I only know that I could not kill this man, and so I pray for an end of suffering for him and all beings.
Where did i write Saddam was in a Buddhist country?
I know where Saddam is, i merely mentioned it because I give my view from a Buddhist standpoint, opssing Death penalty in general, even though it is existent in "buddhist countries", it`s an emphasis that the five percepts are breached by it, no matter where and if a country is buddhist, islamic or marxist. I am not at all interested in political moral philosophy, wetherfrom Quaran or not,I give my view thati consider universal for all senitentbeings.
You didn't. I didn't understand why the death penalty in Buddhist countries had anything to do with Saddam.
I didn't mean any offense. I'm sorry for upsetting you.
Here, in the UK, we have media which clamour for the restoration of the death penalty, as do a few MPs. They always say that they are speaking for some mythical 'middle Britain' but it is worthwhile to notice that we have not returned a 'hanging' Parliament since we abandoned the practice nearly 50 years ago.
The Moral Maze
I guess some of us are just cudgel-wielding, blood-thirsty barbarians. :thumbsup:
I agree with what you said regarding the war. Hey, I actually did vote against Bush twice, and I don't think ever recall thinking "Hey, Iraq could sure use some good ol' American intervention". And yet it's happened, and here we are.
With that said I can't change the past (I think I recall the Buddha saying that, oh, a few times) and I can't predict the future. But, if I were deciding Saddam's fate, I think I would still say that he must die. From a conventional, unenlightened, military/strategic point of view, there's no viable alternative.
Of course there is.
There is always an alternative to killing someone. It's called NOT killing someone.
You don't have to be enlightened to have that point of view. And there aresome in the Militia who do not agree he should be executed, so your militaristic comparison is also "flawed"....
If there were no alternative, the UK would still have the Death Penalty.
That said, there is a review in the UK currently, of the sentencing system.
Sentences should reflect the severity of the crime, they should reflect social opinion, they should be a deterrent, and they should provide a rehabilitation of the criminal.
But Death comes to us all.
What right does anyone have, to bestow that on another human being, ahead of time?
Source: http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theworld/2006/November/theworld_November389.xml§ion=theworld
This aspect of Buddhism against the taking of life in general is the most attractive part to me. When I was very young, and had taken to the habit of killing bugs my grandpa asked me "how would you like it if a giant decided to step on you?" I then visualized a giant foot coming down to crush me, and thought about how much that would hurt. Now I don't kill bugs. After that, and over time I have developed the belief that no life should be taken.
I wouldn't want someone to kill me, so I'm not going to kill/support the death of anyone.
Palzang
Saddam's letter on his upcoming slaying by the Iraqi state