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The heart of meditation
anataman
Who needs a title?Where am I? Veteran
Sogyal Rinpoche says in his 'Tibetan Book of Living and Dying' that:
'The purpose of meditation is to awaken in us the sky-like nature of mind, and to introduce us to that which we really are, our unchanging pure awareness, which underlies the whole of life and death.'
Has anyone in this forum who meditates seriously NOT experienced their 'unchanging pure awareness' in their meditation?
Hopefully this thread ends here - lol
'The purpose of meditation is to awaken in us the sky-like nature of mind, and to introduce us to that which we really are, our unchanging pure awareness, which underlies the whole of life and death.'
Has anyone in this forum who meditates seriously NOT experienced their 'unchanging pure awareness' in their meditation?
Hopefully this thread ends here - lol
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Comments
"Our unchanging pure awareness" stinks of conceit, i.e., I-making and my-making, which is one of the fetters. It is the sixth jhana, which is explicitly not awakening, and is a fabrication to be abandoned.
Our essence or true nature or we are just chasing our tails forever!
Without being overtly contentious (although I'm looking at the boxing gloves hanging up over there)
the jhanas are just descriptions of experiences of mental states that may be experienced in the field of pure awareness during meditation. It's easy to cling to them as one might use a crutch. Try grasping your awareness! There is nothing to grasp or release.
This is why we have to practice and why we constantly forget and relapse into bad habits. The self is something we can be, and associate with. Awareness is our natural state of being. Suck it and see.
Mettha
People who keep saying, 'the purpose of Buddhism is to end suffering'...... well, that's a given. We all know that. But this suffering is the result of our conditioned existence; and hence 'ending of suffering' would necessarily entail an unconditioned state. That's probably what the Rinpoche means by sky like nature, pure awareness etc.
Its working for me I've just read this and thought you may be interested, even if people meditate/be mindful that aren't religious there seems to be a real and rapid change in thought processes.
http://www.monroeinstitute.org/thehub/scientists-show-how-thoughts-cause-molecular-changes-to-your-genes
The primary purpose of meditation may be to end suffering. But when we meditate we are aiming to be our true nature. We know there is suffering, we know there is impermanence, but we struggle with non-self because we have had causes and conditions that result in a mental formation we relate to as our self that we have to contend with and that is where meditation becomes very important. If you don't do it you won't get it.
We have to be our true self to see the self non-self duality. Awareness is what plugs the gap
All this whilst making soup!
Mettha
Thank you @jae
There is increasing scientific proof that meditation has a positive effect on all aspects of our mental and physical being. But you don't need someone to tell you this. Do you? :-)
The purpose of meditation is to be expansive and open like the sky where the clouds can come and go, rain can combine with the sun and make rainbows.
Phenomena arise in something and I put it to you that that is the awareness Sogyal rinpoche alludes to. Follow? Yes or no?
Don't get bogged down too much in ending suffering until you understand how you can achieve it! The root cause of your suffering is your self. Ta da! Magician plus rabbit out if hat and hands it to gorgeous smiling assistant. Shit the smiling assistant looks like a crustacean. Well they reproduce because of the way they look as well, somehow!
Any way - not to be distracted too much- be like the sky and let the clouds fly by along with a few private jets millions of birds and the occasional UFO.
Mettha
I'm pretty skeptical of the idea that you need to have an understanding of your true nature before you can end suffering, too. What is your basis for claiming that?
To end suffering is the point of Buddhism. However, you have to know that the 4NTs say you are the cause of your suffering. Know yourself then you can end suffering.
Temet nosce
Mettha
The true self is permanent, bliss, and self. Your Buddhism alarm detector is going off I know. But there are sutras saying this such as the ratnagotravhibaga and the shrimaladevi sutra.
The skylike nature is a pointing out instruction of the true self. Another way to think of it is the skhandas are all transformed into their enlightened properties and those properties are not suffering.
Sogyal Rinpoche says in his 'Tibetan Book of Living and Dying' that:
'The purpose of meditation is to awaken in us the sky-like nature of mind, and to introduce us to that which we really are, our unchanging pure awareness, which underlies the whole of life and death.'
Has anyone in this forum who meditates seriously NOT experienced their 'unchanging pure awareness' in their meditation?
Obviously you have not, and that was the point of this thread. Can we really sit for hours and days and years and not comprehend that there is a field of awareness that supports our practice, so we can Know what we are
I am saying just this the 4 NT's awaken us to suffering, its cause (tut!), there is a way to overcome it and then we practice skillfull means to speed us to the other side, and escape the human condition.
My true nature is buried in a load of shit and I can smell and hear it, but, there's a way out.
Temet Nosce
mettha
Bless you and all who sail with you!
Now where did I put that bloody screwdriver? It's such a pain when a screw becomes loose!
Thank you for your contribution @Jeffery :-)
OK @fivebells there was some kind of glitch and I didn't download everything you wrote. I'll re-read it from the beginning and answer in context.
If there is nothing and a dimension of nothingness then Sariputta could not have entered into it nor could he remain. It would then be the dimension of Sariputa.
Nothingness is not the same as emptiness.
There has to be a basis for understanding. If you have no basis there is nothing you can relate to. You may be a buddha or someone seeking to understand their buddha nature, but 'you' are suffering. Or why would you be here discussing this most irrelevant and trivial point to the point of exhaustion as I am. Meditate - be yourself, see that you suffer, see your pursuit is to end your suffering but is causing more suffering then end your suffering, by cal my abiding in your true nature with the sun and a few clouds and the odd rainbow making an appearance.
Dont overcomplicate something that is uncomplicated and open.
Mettha
Oh I found my screwdriver by the way. It was in my other hand.
Good meditating with you btw
The true self is openness, clarity, and sensitivity. Right off the bat many people have an intuition into what this means. But these three qualities cannot be nailed down by heavy handed speculation.
Again, if you are interested you could read Rigdzin Shikpo's book openness, clarity, and sensitivity.
Another idea is that true self is awakened heart or Bodhicitta.
Who would tie my shoes?
Tie @ourselfs shoelaces,
Read @Jeffreys book
Try and follow anatamans thread
Live til we are dead
Sit
Meditate
Be
Walk
Live
See
Mettha ha ha ha
Oh well (shrug)
It's probably only funny to me...
Finger pointing at the moon - lets castigate it.
Or wait and take our time to look at what it's pointing at...
Hey - revelation - life's really what we make it.
Buddhism is just a tag for something we feel we cannot breach,
Or is it? Is there something else?
That's well within our reach.
A half smile becomes full beaming smile, and then there is an explosion of mirth - at least someone can be happy around here, and it's all dedicated to you @fivebells - smile, I know you want to, here let me tickle that wittle chin of yours, to help you on your way
It is not that there is nothing, but there is an experience of nothing.
Have you seen the film where Robin Williams is playing Peter Pan. There is a scene where there is an empty feast. Boy did the lost boys make something of that!
Yum Yum
I think the Mahayana sutras you refer to are talking about Nirvana, and don't give much insight into how one ought to practice prior to its attainment.
So what was the foundational work here - 'watch what you do!' easy peasy
Ta da Nirvana - in an instant. But, she still had to draw the water from the well for some purpose - and that was to quench her thirst, or wash her knickers.
When the thirst has been quenched, and the laundry done, what is further to be required that may be regarded as unnecessary?
just a thought!
but I am not going to give it to you...
Maybe I will feel a little more generous tomorrow.
"I believe I did, Bob."
Mettha
btw you have to read Sogyal Rinpoche's book - it's all in there!
LOL
This exhausted mind
Beaten helpless by Karma and neurotic thought
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara
Signed, sealed and delivered by Nyoshul Kenpo, courtesy of Sogyal Rinpoche - and Anatman
So basically I am contradicting your assertion that Bodhicitta is not an entry level teaching. Indeed without Bodhicitta no practice can be realized so you might as well get started on what leads to Nirvana.
Buddha nature is the very first teaching in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation which is the Lam Ring text for Kagyu. That essentially blows out of the water your idea that openness, clarity, and sensitivity are not appropriate for beginners. The very first teaching is Buddha nature.
As I said many have an intuition into OCS. And those who don't immediately have an intuition will eventually with the help of a teacher. The reason is because OCS is the nature of mind. Thus if clarity is the nature of mind so to the mind will realize what clarity in fact is.
The 'self' is a damn useful gizmo. Too bad it is, in my experience, also the major source of my day to day suffering.
A few days ago when meditating (this will be hard to explain), awareness of 'self' was inevitably accompanied by physical sensations I usually attribute to 'fear' (generalized). 'Self' thoughts were accompanied by contraction in my chest, or zings of adrenaline, or other mildly unpleasant physical sensations. When I say sense of 'self' I mean thoughts that had content of difficult interaction with someone, unpleasant things I keep putting off that dog me in meditation, etc.
What was really cool, and this only happened the once, is that sense of 'self' kind of . . . cracked loose, and the immediate image was like a tooth coming loose. Still attached but wiggly. Let me tell you what relief that is.
The basic dissatisfaction of 'self' is what drove me into committed practice after years of dilettantism. For some reason, and I'm grateful for whatever the reason, just experiencing mySELF became intolerable, a complete misery. Two and a half years ago, it became acute and I said fuck it and started drinking again. A year ago I quit drinking, and about halfway through the year that despair hit me again. I can't think of another way to describe it but some existential despair of just being . . . me.
So (back to topic
I see the 'self' a lot like the old fashioned 'ego'. The true self?
No idea! But like many, I sense it. What I am sensing, again, no idea.
Gassho
One 'no-self' benefit I've experienced at work (I realized this long before I started practicing) is that I don't knee-jerk react. Probably all work places are rife with pot-stirrers and gossips, people who get energized from upsetting others; it is quite common in nursing. Groups of mainly women together are very competitive, there is no 'brotherhood' where we got each other's back, unfortunately.
So inevitably, that competition involves people being irritable or abusive with each other. Also, hospital work for all personnel is extremely stressful and busy, and people are just people and get short with each other from sheer exhaustion.
Anyway, when someone is deliberately or helplessly unkind to me, I note it but don't find myself getting defensive or upset. At least at the level where I lose control and poke them back. I sort of see my 'self' as a vapor and the zinger goes right on through. No one has the power or ability to 'determine' me, you know? Just because they say something unkind or careless, doesn't make it MEAN anything, to me. I don't even care what it means about THEM.
When I began practicing formally, I realized this was a sort of benefit of no-self awareness. Or so it seems to me. It sure has made my day to day stress at work less.
There are definitely some folks who get energy from pissing people off, but most of the time, they are irritable from stress, and lost it for a moment. That includes you and me, so be kind to yourself and others for their humanity.
I don't think we need to demonize the self or relegate it to a well trained pet either. It just needs to know it's limitations and work within them. I'm sure there's a lot more to it, though.
Gassho