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Just a few very simple questions

cvaluecvalue Veteran
edited January 2014 in General Banter
How come the earth, the moon and the sun get together and dance around each other in a perfect dance to create life on this earth?
How the DNA codes were written so they can pass on from one generation to the next?
Complicated human bodies are made up of atoms, protons, neutrons... by chance?

Any more questions any one?
«1

Comments

  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited January 2014
    The first one is easy, gravity, and then the earth being in the right place for the elements of life to come together.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Not that perfect is a coincidence.
  • matthewmartinmatthewmartin Amateur Bodhisattva Suburbs of Mt Meru Veteran
    edited January 2014
    There is a scientific answer for all of those, wikipedia has it.

    The Buddhist answer, in Buddhist cosmology, which is for me a metaphor and rhetorical device, say that the world is so huge that pretty much everything you could imagine exists in it. So that is why we have planets & DNA & so on.

    The other part of the question is implied, who set it up this way? The Buddhist system relies on cause and effect as a foundational mechanism. So there can't be a uncaused effect. The chain of cause and effect goes back forever.

    I haven't quite figured out if the issue about a creator god is a reaction against Hinduism or if this is a serious issue that would contradict something basic in the Dharma were a creator god to creep in.

    And there is the sutra about the guy wounded by the arrow asking unhelpful questions about who shot the arrow, what kind of arrow, etc. Some place I read imply the exact questions the Buddha said were useless, but I sort of read it as condemnation of speculation on the whole category of questions *in the context of the Buddhist path*. I'm sure these questions are quite relevant to making rockets and visiting Mars.
  • RodrigoRodrigo São Paulo, Brazil Veteran
    I have the same questions, and I've stopped looking for answers. I like to be amazed by these things, though.
    BhikkhuJayasaraDandelion
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Not that perfect is a coincidence.

    That didn't come out right. I meant to say nothing that perfect is a coincidence.

    Invincible_summercvalue
  • @vinlyn said: nothing that perfect is a coincidence.
    Agree 100%
  • Why did humans evolve to have less hair? Isn't more hair a survival advantage? Could it have culturally become a maiting thing like birds having colors?
    Bunks
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Another way to look at this is, out of all of the infinet possible permutations, the only place that would allow these questions to arise would be out of what we call perfect.
    Invincible_summerpegembaracvalueCitta
  • Yes it's like rolling a six sided dice 100 times and recording the results. And then after the fact you calculate the odds of those 100 rolls coming up to what they were. It's unlikely but you are going 'after the fact'.
    Cinorjer
  • Things happened the way they were meant to ie. due to causes and conditions.
    Otherwise it would not have happened! One can't argue with the truth that things are the way they are - global warming, hurricanes, tsunamis etc.

    It is in that sense nature is "perfect".
    Rodrigocvalue
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Space aliens I reckon. :p
    jaelobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Perpetual mystery to me is why people don't pay attention more often to where they stick threads.... :rolleyes:

    Moved to general banter.
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran
    cvalue said:

    How come the earth, the moon and the sun get together and dance around each other in a perfect dance to create life on this earth?
    How the DNA codes were written so they can pass on from one generation to the next?
    Complicated human bodies are made up of atoms, protons, neutrons... by chance?

    Any more questions any one?

    Robert Lanza (google the name, I'm terrible at remembering credentials) proposed the theory of 'biocentrism' to replace the purely materialistic universe belief that life is this amazing accident and consciousness is an even bigger one. Basically, he places consciousness at the beginning, and that the universe unfolded the way it did because life was the goal. I'm butchering his theory, his book is a great read and whether or not it can be empirically proven as true, it is USEFUL as truth and eerily reminiscent of Buddhist cosmology (Lanza is not a Buddhist).

    Gassho :)

    cvalue
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Jeffrey said:

    Why did humans evolve to have less hair? Isn't more hair a survival advantage? Could it have culturally become a maiting thing like birds having colors?

    No.
    We didn't need hair any more, because we got clothing.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Jayantha said:

    The first one is easy, gravity, and then the earth being in the right place for the elements of life to come together.

    Gravity is an exceptionally weak and feeble force. Planets in space, are technically weightless. But when you see a Jumbo jet taking off, there's proof right there that gravity is feeble....
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    The deepest question is, 'Should you butter an egg banjo?'

    After years of experimentation and contemplation, I think the answer is yes.
    jaecvalue
  • Sorry @federica, I realized I was in the wrong thread only after I posted it. Ouch! it was too late to change. I don't know how to move to different thread. :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    You don't. You ask us to do it.

    See? Mystery solved!! :lol:
    Vastmindcvalue
  • With clothes even, why would there be natural selection to get rid of hair? It wouldn't help anyone to have less hair even if they did have clothes.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    @Jeffrey
    Natural selection???? The evidence seems to point towards all our media views of what a beautiful human body is. Apparently its young, half starved and bereft of blemish or body hair.
    Apparently a lack of body hair is essential for capturing your alpha mate.
  • matthewmartinmatthewmartin Amateur Bodhisattva Suburbs of Mt Meru Veteran
    edited January 2014
    re: hair
    Our ancestors lost their hair to live in the desert and to barely survive using a tool kit of barely effective survival strategies including hunting animals by running after them until they drop over from heat exhaustion. Humans are one of the only animals that can run and run and run, thanks to sweat glands and hairlessness-- other animals will overheat and collapse helplessly. This hunting technique is still used by Aborigines in Australia to hunt kangaroo and I saw a nature film where a wolf hunted a young caribou this way.

    We also liked to scavenge, eat snails, coastal shell fish and turtles-- man, we were crappy hunters specializing in the dead or not moving. My how things have changed.

    ref: lots and lots of pop-sci books on ancient humans.
    howJeffreycvalue
  • To me, gravity is fascinating. I realize the observation I'm about to pose sounds childish and ignorant, but the more I thing about it, the more confusing it becomes. Say you are at the south pole, holding a glass of water. You are in actuality living upside down. Gravity holds you in place and also holds the water in the glass. The technically upside down glass. however, you can easily overcome that gravity (albeit momentarily) by simply jumping into the air, climbing a ladder, etc.
    What a system!
    Jeffrey
  • Natural selection is not "random" in the sense of rolling dice is. Generic mutations ARE random in that way. But whether a trait gives one survivability is wholly dependent on environmental conditions.
    matthewmartinJeffrey
  • Love is the answer.
    Jeffreylobster
  • cvalue said:

    How come the earth, the moon and the sun get together and dance around each other in a perfect dance to create life on this earth?
    How the DNA codes were written so they can pass on from one generation to the next?
    Complicated human bodies are made up of atoms, protons, neutrons... by chance?

    Any more questions any one?

    What gets me is the fact that although the moon is tiny and the sun is huge, from the earth their discs are exactly the same size...hence eclipses which show the sun's corona.
    The moon would only need to be a few miles further from the earth or a few miles nearer and it would not happen.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I enjoyed reading all the responses here :) They aren't questions I spend much time thinking about anymore, they just don't matter much to me either way. I'm ok with some questions being unanswerable and I don't have a burning desire to know. Why does it matter how exactly it all happens and where exactly it all comes together? Most of those questions come in the form of questioning our beliefs (which is a good thing to do, of course). Bill Nye the Science Guy has some good youtube videos that explain some of those questions from a science point of view (as best as can be done at this point anyhow).

    For me, when I consider what it takes to create a human baby, the process is pretty miraculous. But to *me* that doesn't mean it had to have some sort of creationary force that explains it just because it's such a perfect system. Same with how the planets and the universe came together.

    I think that we become privy to a lot of those unanswerable questions when we die, and then when we are reborn again, we forget it because knowing some answers would alter our ability to properly experience everything human existence has to offer. But that is just a sense I've had since I was young and I haven't reconciled it with my Buddhist practice at this point.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    cvalue said:

    How come the earth, the moon and the sun get together and dance around each other in a perfect dance to create life on this earth?
    How the DNA codes were written so they can pass on from one generation to the next?
    Complicated human bodies are made up of atoms, protons, neutrons... by chance?

    Any more questions any one?

    Through a myriad of countless, conditional and sometimes contradictory processes working in tandem, I'd imagine. For all the things that seem to have worked out just so, just try to think of all the times and places they didn't. How many possible Earth-like planets are out there, for example, that are just a little too small or big, a little too close or far from their suns, without a stabilizing satellite, etc.? How many possible times has life emerged but didn't succeed? How many forms of life just here on Earth that failed to make it? Just some things to consider, at any rate.
  • cvalue said:

    How come the earth, the moon and the sun get together and dance around each other in a perfect dance to create life on this earth?
    How the DNA codes were written so they can pass on from one generation to the next?
    Complicated human bodies are made up of atoms, protons, neutrons... by chance?

    Things are this way because that's the way things are. If they were some other way, things would be different.

    Look, it's a bit like saying, "Wow, look at that puddle of water; it's a miracle, look how the water fits in the depression just perfectly".

    It's that way, because it's that's way.

    betaboyCinorjer
  • DandelionDandelion London Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    Why did humans evolve to have less hair?

    @jeffrey you haven't met my husband!
    Jeffreykarasticvalue
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Tosh said:

    cvalue said:

    How come the earth, the moon and the sun get together and dance around each other in a perfect dance to create life on this earth?
    How the DNA codes were written so they can pass on from one generation to the next?
    Complicated human bodies are made up of atoms, protons, neutrons... by chance?

    Things are this way because that's the way things are. If they were some other way, things would be different.

    Look, it's a bit like saying, "Wow, look at that puddle of water; it's a miracle, look how the water fits in the depression just perfectly".

    It's that way, because it's that's way.

    The juxtaposition of the earth, sun, moon, and the rest of the solar system, and universe is just a tad bit more complicated than water filling a puddle depression...don't you think?

  • vinlyn said:

    Tosh said:

    cvalue said:

    How come the earth, the moon and the sun get together and dance around each other in a perfect dance to create life on this earth?
    How the DNA codes were written so they can pass on from one generation to the next?
    Complicated human bodies are made up of atoms, protons, neutrons... by chance?

    Things are this way because that's the way things are. If they were some other way, things would be different.

    Look, it's a bit like saying, "Wow, look at that puddle of water; it's a miracle, look how the water fits in the depression just perfectly".

    It's that way, because it's that's way.

    The juxtaposition of the earth, sun, moon, and the rest of the solar system, and universe is just a tad bit more complicated than water filling a puddle depression...don't you think?

    His point isn't that, I am afraid. That was just an example. Problem is, we look at the final result first and THEN we look at how the final result came to be. In the reverse, that is. Naturally, this approach will project the illusion that the result is perfect - so perfect that the preceding causes couldn't be a matter of chance. Or so we may conclude. Get it yet?
    JeffreyTosh
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I don't believe in such grand coincidences. Get it yet?
  • the known universe ( just the universe we know today, and may be it is more big) is too much big enough that coincidence happen much more than we think. we think the chances of lives on earth is too perfect, no no it is not perfect. the chance that living things arise on a planet in the whole universe too much. the known universe's age is 13.5 billion years and the earth's age is 4.5 billion years, if we think those numbers as one hour, the time that organic compounds were first made from a chance is just a second compared to the hour. this is not mysterious thing, just the universe works in that way. we dont know other results, we know the only one result that is what we are now, theist people are asking the questions like that, and with those questions they are trying to prove their god or mysterious thing exist in somewhere out there. i would suggest to play a video game called spore, this game explains how life on a planet made, from this game making a life on a planet needs several things such as terraforming which is planet's location on a system and temperature and plants to make oxygens and animals to live and etc :P it is good game for knowledge of science.
  • The fact is the known universe and we are arising together in mutual interdependence.
    That includes the phenomenon of time.
  • To me, it all boils down to mathematics.

    Let's say a planet has a 0.000000000000000000001% chance (I'm not using real math here, just explaining the concept) to bear life.

    Now, count the billions and billions (lol) of stars in our own Galaxy. Many of them having planets of their own. Then count the trillions of other galaxies out there, each with billions upon billions of stars, many also with planets.

    No matter how small the chance of something is, if there are enough opportunities it is bound to happen somewhere, at some time. This concept is also why I firmly believe in Alien life. Though as to if that alien life is intelligent or not is an entirely different matter.

    That's my view on it anyway.
  • taiyaki said:

    Love is the answer.

    Indeed. To most questions.

    What is there in Love to question?

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Citta said:

    cvalue said:

    How come the earth, the moon and the sun get together and dance around each other in a perfect dance to create life on this earth?
    How the DNA codes were written so they can pass on from one generation to the next?
    Complicated human bodies are made up of atoms, protons, neutrons... by chance?

    Any more questions any one?

    What gets me is the fact that although the moon is tiny and the sun is huge, from the earth their discs are exactly the same size...hence eclipses which show the sun's corona.
    The moon would only need to be a few miles further from the earth or a few miles nearer and it would not happen.
    It is just coincidence that it is that way at this moment in time. The moon is (very slowly!) moving away from the earth so will in fact get smaller in the sky over time.

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited February 2014
    It has been the case for all of the time span of mankind to date. If all things arise in mutual dependence what room does tha leave for ' coincidence ? '

    Perhaps we need to start with a definition of coincidence which does not assume a mechanistic universe that is merely material.

    Bunksrobot
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited February 2014
    It boggles the mind.

    Because the mind has some serious limitations. We're lousy at comprehending very large numbers or complicated, slow processes we cannot observe in action. We're also pretty stuck up when it comes to the importance and unique position of humanity in the world.

    If you think of all the many elements that had to come together to create us, the species with the brains to dominate the entire world, it seems impossible it's all due to chance or blind forces in the universe that did not have consciousness as a goal. Yet given the vastness of the universe, the billions of galaxies each with billions of stars and most of those stars with multiple planets, and all of them constantly changing including our own system....if the conditions our world provides turns out to be duplicated on one in a million planets, then there are still millions of planets exactly like our world out there. And millions more that existed in the past and another few million yet to be born. It boggles the mind.

    We can intellectually understand the concept of huge expanses of time, but the mind has a hard time looking at that mountain in the distance and understanding it's only a hunk of crust that used to be on an ocean floor and is on its way to becoming sand on a beach. The mountain has always been there and seems to be eternal. Same thing with the moon, which has been pointed out started much closer to the earth and is slowly moving away.

    The fascinating thing about the universe is, it is always evolving. If aliens observed our star and planets a billion years ago using advanced telescopes, they would have said, "Nope, no world capable of life there. Couple of planets inside the liquid water zone but they're all lethal to life. Shame that we're unique in the universe."

    Toshbetaboy
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited February 2014
    cvalue said:

    How come the earth, the moon and the sun get together and dance around each other in a perfect dance to create life on this earth?
    How the DNA codes were written so they can pass on from one generation to the next?
    Complicated human bodies are made up of atoms, protons, neutrons... by chance?

    Any more questions any one?

    One one more. What is all this? The sun, the moon, the stars, this planet, this body, other bodies, this mind, other minds... These forms, feelings, perceptions, impulses , consciousness. What is all this? What is it really?

  • vinlyn said:

    I don't believe in such grand coincidences. Get it yet?

    Look at it this way; for each one of us to be here, just look at the history of millions of people who have had to have met and to have found each other attractive enough to 'bump uglies' with each other, to have been conceived, to have lived long enough to in turn find another one of our ancestors to conceive with.

    It's quite staggering when you think about it. It wasn't really a coincidence for all these millions of people to have met, procreated, and survived to in turn meet, procreate and survive - it's just what happened.

    If it had happened in some other way, you simply wouldn't be the you that you are now.

    Now apply that same thinking to the universe. The water fits the depression in the ground perfectly, because that's the way things are.
    Cinorjer
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited February 2014
    Tosh said:

    vinlyn said:

    I don't believe in such grand coincidences. Get it yet?

    Look at it this way; for each one of us to be here, just look at the history of millions of people who have had to have met and to have found each other attractive enough to 'bump uglies' with each other, to have been conceived, to have lived long enough to in turn find another one of our ancestors to conceive with.

    It's quite staggering when you think about it. It wasn't really a coincidence for all these millions of people to have met, procreated, and survived to in turn meet, procreate and survive - it's just what happened.

    If it had happened in some other way, you simply wouldn't be the you that you are now.

    Now apply that same thinking to the universe. The water fits the depression in the ground perfectly, because that's the way things are.
    What boggles my mind is that every one of our millions of ancestors had to be good enough at survival and finding a partner to live long enough to procreate and raise those children until the children are old enough to find someone. You'd think in evolutionary terms, we'd have inherited the survival instincts of the best of the best. Yet, most of humanity still seems to ignore danger and has not a clue how to deal with real life threatening emergencies. So survival seems to have been pretty much a matter of luck, being in the right place at the right time.
    Tosh
  • No room for karma ladies and gentlemen ? Its all just luck ?
    vinlyn
  • In the Mahayana model that Universe that we experience with our senses is part of a three layered universe. ( The Trikaya.) It is the Nirmanakaya. which has relative but provisional reality.
    Above that is the Sambogakaya. The world of archetypes. The world of light.
    Above that is the Dharmakaya . the true nature of all that is . The origin of all Buddhas.

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    federica said:


    Gravity is an exceptionally weak and feeble force. Planets in space, are technically weightless. But when you see a Jumbo jet taking off, there's proof right there that gravity is feeble....

    Yes. Like the say, the earth sucks - but not all that hard really!
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Zayl said:

    Though as to if that alien life is intelligent or not is an entirely different matter.

    I sometimes wonder whether human life is really all that intelligent. ;)
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    I don't believe in such grand coincidences. Get it yet?

    Well, if the parameters had been slightly different, then we wouldn't be here to speculate about such things. But quite possibly life would have found a different way to evolve, eg non-carbon based.
  • Zayl said:

    Though as to if that alien life is intelligent or not is an entirely different matter.

    I sometimes wonder whether human life is really all that intelligent. ;)
    So why @SpineyNorman do you think that the Buddha often talks of the desirability and rarity of 'precious human birth ' ?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Citta said:

    Zayl said:

    Though as to if that alien life is intelligent or not is an entirely different matter.

    I sometimes wonder whether human life is really all that intelligent. ;)
    So why @SpineyNorman do you think that the Buddha often talks of the desirability and rarity of 'precious human birth ' ?
    Well traditionally animals aren't bright enough, and Gods are too contented, whereas humans are just bright enough and discontented enough to practice. ;)
  • Which implies that human beings are really intellegent enough. Dark tinted glasses are just as distorting as rosy tinted ones.
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