Who do we improve first?

lobster

You know right? Yourself.

Then you can calm mad elephants or boisterous unruly bully's (modernising things).
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit06.htm

Great calm and peace is contagious. What generates this calm? Is it a myth or part of your experience?
Eventually is there a sense of improvement or goal? In other words do the goodies, baddies and other experiences and arisings become . . . 'what is that?' to coin a koan.

:wave:

jae

@lobster...as the late Micheal Jackson said ...

"Man In The Mirror"

I'm Gonna Make A Change,
For Once In My Life
It's Gonna Feel Real Good,
Gonna Make A Difference
Gonna Make It Right . . .

As I, Turn Up The Collar On My
Favourite Winter Coat
This Wind Is Blowin' My Mind
I See The Kids In The Street,
With Not Enough To Eat
Who Am I, To Be Blind?
Pretending Not To See
Their Needs
A Summer's Disregard,
A Broken Bottle Top
And A One Man's Soul
They Follow Each Other On
The Wind Ya' Know
'Cause They Got Nowhere
To Go
That's Why I Want You To
Know

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change)
(Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah)

I've Been A Victim Of A Selfish
Kind Of Love
It's Time That I Realize
That There Are Some With No
Home, Not A Nickel To Loan
Could It Be Really Me,
Pretending That They're Not
Alone?

A Widow Deeply Scarred,
Somebody's Broken Heart
And A Washed-Out Dream
(Washed-Out Dream)
They Follow The Pattern Of
The Wind, Ya' See
Cause They Got No Place
To Be
That's Why I'm Starting With
Me
(Starting With Me!)

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
(Ooh!)
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
(Ooh!)
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change)

etc etc......... (lots of shamone's nah nahs)

Make That Change.

Citta

' improve' kemo sabe ?

lobster

Improve.

As the impediments fall away. The natural state becomes ever more 'present'. I find that is an improvement.

You @citta for example no longer have a need to avoid my posts? That's an improvement.

The word improve is not quite right but then that is the nature of words. Perhaps you can state it better?

. . . and now back to the moon walking . . .

:wave:

Citta

Interesting. I see it differently of course. As the pun rate and need to shock reduced I began to feel that there was some point in trying to communicate with a human being rather than a Bumper Fun Book.
If the natural state us an inprovement then it begs the question whether it is it an improvement, an improvement on what ? The unnatural state ?

lobster

If the natural state is an inprovement then it begs the question whether it is it an improvement, an improvement on what ? The unnatural state ?

An improved being.
Less need for improvement or preferred superficial behaviour. Less need to cling, less need to ask or answer questions.
A reason to practice for our own and others well being. I would suggest that uncovering this gives us insight and awareness. No? Then there is nothing to improve . . .
:wave:

Citta

I could split semantic hairs to reflect more accurately the Dzogchen view, but I am attempting to engage less with my inner pedant. So I will agree for the sake of this specific debate.

Vastmind

I'm sure not trying to get worse...hahaha.
Where are some more delusions? How many
unskillful acts can I do this week? I think
I'll leave the house this morning and just not
pay attention or care....fuck it.

Yeah, who the hell needs this 'improvement' shit?
lolololol

Here we go 'round the mulberry bush...

I'm off to improve myself therefore will be
able to improve others..(help them with their
suffering)......

BTW...

Citta said:

' improve' kemo sabe ?

Kemo sabe...??????
Well....I guess you just say that to all the girls....

Zero

lobster said:

The word improve is not quite right but then that is the nature of words.

'Address' perhaps?

fivebells

Citta said:

I could split semantic hairs to reflect more accurately the Dzogchen view, but I am attempting to engage less with my inner pedant. So I will agree for the sake of this specific debate.

Sounds like an improvement.

Citta

fivebells said:

Citta said:

I could split semantic hairs to reflect more accurately the Dzogchen view, but I am attempting to engage less with my inner pedant. So I will agree for the sake of this specific debate.

Sounds like an improvement.

Really ? Then I must try harder.

fivebells

Sounds like a promising path to improvement.

Citta

Jolly good. All we need now is someone to walk it.

fivebells

Maybe the I who is attempting to engage less with its inner pedant could.

Citta

That ' I' and the inner pedant are equally conventions lacking an unchanging self.

fivebells

And yet, here you are, trying to improve them. Sounds like something needs improvement. What a bind.

Citta

Clearly I need to maintain the View more consistently. The View that sees everything as perfect just as it is.

fivebells

Sounds like an improvement.

Citta

I am glad for you.

lobster

Clearly I need to maintain the View more consistently. The View that sees everything as perfect just as it is.

Including imperfection, ignorance and perfection? Perfectly Nothing with Nowhere to go? I feel a perfect song coming on . . .



What's that Tonto?

Melting?

:buck:

lobster

Clearly I need to maintain the View more consistently. The View that sees everything as perfect just as it is. %3

Jeffrey

Where troubles melt like lemon drops that's where you will find me.

(And empty appearing tea and beer)

Citta

All of it. Arising in great emptiness and dissolving in great emptiness....and none of it happening with reference to my preferences.. Just as it is.

DairyLama

Citta said:

Clearly I need to maintain the View more consistently. The View that sees everything as perfect just as it is.

You still haven't told us what "the View" actually is.

Citta

I can't .Neither can anyone else. You can however have it pointed out to you by someone able to do that. That's what thousands of us have done, and none of us can subsequently render it into words.

Citta

Citta said:

All of it. Arising in great emptiness and dissolving in great emptiness....and none of it happening with reference to my preferences.. Just as it is.

That's as near as I can get with words.

Theswingisyellow

It finally starts with love. To really love is to love without hope, unconditionally To open our hearts, to know our suffering we know the suffering of others and from such things compassion arises.
Metta

anando

Improve the contacts to the brahamic planes.

sakko

lobster

Theswingisyellow said:

It finally starts with love. To really love is to love without hope, unconditionally To open our hearts, to know our suffering we know the suffering of others and from such things compassion arises.
Metta

:clap:

Now you are talking.

Notice:
not 'me', not 'gain insight', not 'improve' . . .

No no.

Give. What do I give . . .
Metta?
Metta!
Come on you Metta Ray (Maitriya) . . .
How do I unfold. What is the lotus opening? What are we awakening?

:clap:

upekka

Theswingisyellow said:

know our suffering [then] we know the suffering of others and from such things compassion arises.

'know suffering of birth, aging, sickness, .......... ... , in short know suffering of five clinging aggregates'

Jeffrey

Citta said:

Citta said:

All of it. Arising in great emptiness and dissolving in great emptiness....and none of it happening with reference to my preferences.. Just as it is.

That's as near as I can get with words.

I like that