Zen and Vipassana Meditation

Frozen_Paratrooper

On researching different kinds of meditation, the two that most fascinate me are Zen and Vipassana. As part of the technique, they both seem to emphasize focusing on the breath and just observing thoughts and allowing them to come and go. I'm having a hard time understanding the differences.

how

Me too. There are different forms, teachers and linage for Zen and Vipassana. Sit em all down on a zafu and they act and sound pretty much the same. Everyone just keeps breathing.

Cinorjer

Yep, you might say Zen is Vipassana meditation as practiced by Japanese (and Chan before that for China and Korea). According to the various historical articles I can access on the internet, as Mahayana Buddhism became a defined school separate from Theravadin way back when it had barely made it out of India, the meditation techniques for Mahayana practice focused on prajna or sudden insight meditation rather than the jhana type. I'll bet I'm vastly oversimplifying and Tibetan Buddhism practices both types.

Hamsaka

Zen practice (and philosophy) was the first 'kind' of Buddhism that called out to me, or appealed to me. Since then, meditation has come to the fore in a big way, and the Theravada 'vehicle' has really spelled it out in concrete steps that even I can understand, and I have a lot of trouble in the translation.

I can speak more intelligently about Vipassana as that is my focus. I have great faith that it all comes out the 'same' in the end as How says above. It's OK to gravitate toward what appeals to you. You do have a unique temperament, as a human being, and although this unique temperament is only true in a relative, temporal sense, you might as well use it's strengths to hitch onto the sort of practice that resonates within you. For me, Vipassana 'made sense', while zazen left me floating in a sea of me I did not trust much (yet). I need explicit instruction at first, and then I have enough self confidence to not hold it too tight or too loose. Pursuing samatha and vipassana has provided a structure I personally needed because of my 'small self' limitations and strengths.

Gassho

lobster

Most people start with wearing Mr Cushion (aka Zafu the Clown) on their heads. They like the idea of meditation but isn't there some more reading, ideas, procrastinating, techniques to waste time discussing . . . maybe next life time.

:coffee:

Coffee table Buddhists.

Nobody here is like that of course. :hiding:
. . . however . . . if anyone is like that . . . I will be doing a special meditation and dedication of merit to their efforts.

In the words of Buddha Metta Ray: 'Rise and Shine'

Invincible_summer

The way I see it, vipassana (and other Theravada-influenced meditation) gives you training wheels and landmarks to gauge how things are going. Zen doesn't give you training wheels - your pure experience will be your guide.

I feel that although Zen appeals to a lot of people due to its straight-forward, stripped-down nature, zazen/shikantaza is a fairly advanced practice that can leave practitioners floundering.

lobster

Try this forum for vipassana if still available . . .
http://jinavamsa.com/insight/subscribinginsight.html

Jeffrey

vipashyana is also the Mahayana path. Shamata-Vipashnaya is the fundamental meditation of my sangha. It is also called formless practice because the fundamental mind has no color or shape. It gathers all mental forms, and itself has no features. A mandala of awareness with unborn mind at the center.

pegembara

Zen meditation has its support in the Bahiya Sutta where the ascetic Bahiya became enlightened just after hearing the Buddha's instruction.

When we practice zazen our mind always follows our breathing. When we inhale, the air comes into the inner world. When we exhale, the air goes to the outer world. The inner world is limitless, and the outer world is also limitless. We say “inner world” or “outer world,” but actually there is just one whole world. In this limitless world, our throat is like a swinging door.

The air comes in and goes out like someone passing through a swinging door. If you think, “I breathe,” the “I” is extra. There is no you to say “I.” What we call “I” is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing: no “I,” no world, no mind nor body; just a swinging door.
-Shunryu Suzuki

In breathing, just the breathing

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
Bahiya Sutta

Citta

It depends.
The term Vipassana is used in two main ways. One is a general term for a form of Anapanasati ( mindfulness of breathing ) which is found in both the Theravada and the Mahayana. However in the Mahayana which uses Sanskrit it is called Vipashnya..Vipassana is Pali.
However there is a more recent and very influential school which is generally known as the Burmese Satipatthana Method..this is what is taught by Goenka and by other teachers like Mahasi Sayadaw, with some variations in the basic method . Most centres and retreats who advertise courses in Vipassana are teaching the Burmese Method in fact.
It is very detailed and highly prescriptive and has little in common with Zen Shikantaza.
It is very tempting to assume that despite their differences in method that the outcomes are similar, but the reality is that is far from easy to ascertain.
For a start there are very few people who have practised both to fruition and who can make that comparison.

DairyLama

Citta said:

For a start there are very few people who have practised both to fruition and who can make that comparison.

Another problem is that there are numerous types of Zen and vipassana meditation.

Citta

True. Although the OP's description seems to most accord in its Zen referencing to Soto Shikantanza.
His description when applied to Vipassana as found in Goenka And Mahasi Sayadaw , which are almost certainly the most widely taught in the west, does not compute as the breath forms only one object in those systems, and 'watching the thoughts ' per se does not feature at all.
The nearest to it would be the process called ' labelling '.

fivebells

pegembara said:

Zen meditation has its support in the Bahiya Sutta where the ascetic Bahiya became enlightened just after hearing the Buddha's instruction.

It's worth noting, though, that while Bahiya obviously had a deficiency in insight, there's good reason to think that he was almost consummate in virtue and concentration.

He was worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, and given homage — a recipient of robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.

Then Bāhiya, deeply chastened by the devatā, left Suppāraka right then and, in the space of one night,[1] went all the way to where the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī...

[1] Eka-ratti-parivāsena: This phrase can also mean, "taking one-night sojourns" (i.e., resting no more than one night in any one spot); or "with a one-night sojourn." The Commentary prefers the meaning used in the translation, noting that the distance between Suppāraka and Sāvatthī amounts to 120 leagues, or approximately 1,200 miles. In its version of Bāhiya's story, Bāhiya had no meditative attainments at all, and so the miraculous speed of his journey had to be attributed either to the power of the deva or the power of the Buddha. However, he may actually have had strong powers of concentration with some attendant psychic powers of his own.