Anyone ever meditate on music?

Woah93

I have found especially with a frantic mind finding the sweet spot which is the music in the center of awareness and starting fresh on each in breath is an extremely pleasant way of staying present. Each outbreath I try to let go of what I hear and then start fresh like I'm listening for the first time again. Found that electronic music especially is great for this, lyrics tend to distract and the repetitive soothing rhythm is very nice to follow.



So any of you do this as well? What's your choice of music for this?

Namaste all!

Yik_Yis_Yii

When I meditate I almost always listen to really beautiful music. Sometimes music that's mixed with nature sounds like a babbling brook or thunder and rain. I also like simple flute music or low-key sitar music.
Once in a while I'll listen to chanting.
I use quality noise cancelling headphones - for the best music listening!

Jeffrey

Sounds cool. I would personally try it but I wouldn't drop my usual meditation. Rather I would add the music meditation. I think it is not a substitute for sitting without distractions.

lobster

On my Ipod I only ever listen to chanting, usually Amitaba. However on other computers have used nature sounds perhaps with wind chimes or ambient music.

If you want a loud discordant, 'scare the demons away' type of emotional experience, Tibetan temple music might do it. Used to listen to that every morning when doing Tara puja.

I find Chinese chanting to music too sickly sweet but there are noticeable exceptions, I am largely ignorant of the good stuff.

This sound like ideal meditation for you @Woah93

footiam

I have heard of people focussing on colours during meditation but then that is not Vipassana Meditation. There are different types of meditation and Buddha himself prescribed different objects as subjects of concentration for people of different temperament. I have seen stores selling CDs with music for meditation but I don't know if Buddha himself prescribe music as object for meditation. If he had, it probably must be some Indian music.

Woah93

But what if you would use the music just as a means to tie yourself to the now just like with the breath while also encouraging pleasant feelings to arise from the music itself make the KIND of music you choose irrelevant? Given that it's not from the current top 40 or Justin Beiber's latest hit lol.

PS When talking about pleasant feelings it's not like I am expecting that to happen or chase it, it's just that my mind seems to quiet down on it's own A LOT more then if I would just focus on my breathing, which at certain times brings on endless fussing over posture, what thoughts I'm having etc.

I know these are just more thoughts which I don't have to pursue or reject or react to but it seems that somehow I keep stirring it up and my mind won't settle. In these times adding music is really helpful to me, given that it doesn't contain the usual chorus etc. Something repetitive without a clear main melody or "hook" always goes nicely.

When the track I chose is over I end up with silence and become aware of that silence and whatever sounds are there, within that silence I have noticed I can also relate to my thoughts as if they are sounds, which makes any mental event happening crystal clear in the field of my awareness.

Jon Kabat zinn described this quite nicely. "The mind is to thought what the ear is to sound"

lobster

Given that it's not from the current top 40 or Justin Beiber's latest hit lol.

Consider that an advanced practice in aversion . . .

Citta

It is not possible to do meditation as taught in Buddhadharma while listening to music.
Period.
Whatever is happening to people who try to do so it is not Buddhist meditation.
Its some kind of stress reduction.
They are kidding themselves if they think otherwise.

Woah93

It is "not possible"...

Period?...

Why be so sure? Maybe it isn't for you but you can't know for sure how other people experience it, have an open mind...

I really don't get how everything must be set in stone and that's that, with that mindset we would still believe the world is flat and we would fall off if we sailed too far.

Citta

If you can find ONE teacher of Buddhist meditation who agrees that meditation as taught in Buddhadharma is compatible with a simultaneous listening to music..just one in any Buddhist tradition, I will donate $100 dollars to a charity of your choice.
I am afraid this shows a basic misunderstanding of the aims of Buddhist meditation, as well as of its means.

Cinorjer

Citta said:

If you can find ONE teacher of Buddhist meditation who agrees that meditation as taught in Buddhadharma is compatible with a simultaneous listening to music..just one in any Buddhist tradition, I will donate $100 dollars to a charity of your choice.
I am afraid this shows a basic misunderstanding of the aims of Buddhist meditation, as well as of its means.

Citta, you are not talking to a bunch of Zen students. While your stand on the Bodhidharma wall gazing method of meditation is absolutely correct in that a huge component of the practice is sensory deprivation so no distractions are possible, that is not the only type of Buddhist meditation practiced or taught. For instance, chanting or mantra meditation would also be forbidden from the Zazen hall.

Tranquility or mindfulness meditation is also practiced, and that might include music or chanting the sutras in the background or sounds from nature. Music should not have a melody or "catchy tune" or fast beat but should be something that does not capture the mind. I have used flute music before. Korean sutra chanting is marvelous. Unlike Zazen, which seeks to focus your mind on itself, mindfulness meditation simply seeks to focus on the now without comment or thoughts.

Citta

I am not and never have been a Zen student.
I said ONE teacher from ANY Buddhist tradition.
And the OP does not appear to be referring to mantras .
If anyone can demonstrate any recognised teacher recommending the simultaneous listening to music while practising any traditional Buddhist meditation I will make a donation to charity.
I repeat that and will raise my wager to $200

Cinorjer

Citta said:

I am not and never have been a Zen student.
I said ONE teacher from ANY Buddhist tradition.
And the OP does not appear to be referring to mantras .
If anyone can demonstrate any recognised teacher recommending the simultaneous listening to music while practising any traditional Buddhist meditation I will make a donation to charity.
I repeat that and will raise my wager to $200

Of course traditional Buddhist meditation didn't include listening to music. It's not like the temples had monks playing in a band or orchestra. They did sometimes chant during meditation and like the old Christian monks, that served the same purpose and those chants contain melodies and rhythm and even harmonies. Trying to make a distinction between Korean Buddhist chanting with the drum beat and music gets us into another sidetrack.

My own thinking is that focusing on whether or not music in the background is "proper" meditation is nothing but a distraction from what's important in what you're doing. The old temples, open to the surrounding gardens, would have been filled with bird song and other natural sounds. No recognized teacher ever insisted the meditators stuff cotten in their ears, either.

We're doing the same thing as arguing over whether "proper" meditation requires a full lotus posture and saying since that's the traditional technique insisted upon by teachers doing traditional teaching, it's the only real Buddhist meditation.

I don't know what the teachers out there, recognized or otherwise, teach. You are probably correct that it's not in the traditional bag of meditation tools. I don't think you're correct in claiming that makes it non-Buddhist meditation.

DairyLama

Citta said:

If anyone can demonstrate any recognised teacher recommending the simultaneous listening to music while practising any traditional Buddhist meditation I will make a donation to charity.
I repeat that and will raise my wager to $200

Well, I used to run a Buddhist group and I reckon I could persuade a few of my friends to "recognise me" as a teacher ( for a small fee ), so can I enter the competition? By the way I could also set up a small "charity" for you to donate to afterwards...actually your donation would easily cover the costs involved in my "recognition process", so it would work out quite nicely.

DairyLama

Cinorjer said:

They did sometimes chant during meditation and like the old Christian monks, that served the same purpose and those chants contain melodies and rhythm and even harmonies.

I've been on retreat to a Theravada monastery several times, and the monks and nuns chant in Pali. It's beautiful and inspiring, and certainly meditative. Does that count as "music"?

Citta

SpinyNorman said:

Cinorjer said:

They did sometimes chant during meditation and like the old Christian monks, that served the same purpose and those chants contain melodies and rhythm and even harmonies.

I've been on retreat to a Theravada monastery several times, and the monks and nuns chant in Pali. It's beautiful and inspiring, and certainly meditative. Does that count as "music"?

Not the kind of music implied in the OP. Electronic music was specified.

Citta

SpinyNorman said:

Citta said:

If anyone can demonstrate any recognised teacher recommending the simultaneous listening to music while practising any traditional Buddhist meditation I will make a donation to charity.
I repeat that and will raise my wager to $200

Well, I used to run a Buddhist group and I reckon I could persuade a few of my friends to "recognise me" as a teacher ( for a small fee ), so can I enter the competition? By the way I could also set up a small "charity" for you to donate to afterwards...actually your donation would easily cover the costs involved in my "recognition process", so it would work out quite nicely.

So when recognised as a Buddhist teacher ( for the sake of discussion ) you will hold the view that listening to music can be done at the same time..simultaneously, as samatha, vipassana, Zazen, or any form of anapanasati ? Brave.

Yik_Yis_Yii

While it is presumed we here are all "buddhists", no one should presume our meditations and/or practices of Buddhism all fit one strict description.
People meditate with different goals in mind.
If music or chanting, or nature sounds helps to bring one to that calm center of breath and allows one to progress into the nature of their particular meditational goals... who is anyone to say "That's not real Buddhist meditation"?

Citta

I have no doubt that chanting or natural sounds can help us to be more open to what is always already the case.
I am not presuming that everyone here is 'buddhist'.
I am assuming that there will be a general recognition that the forum is called New BUDDHIST.
The clue is in the forum name.

Yik_Yis_Yii

you seem like an unusually rigid person, Citta. and your reply missed my point.

Citta

I note your view Yik Yis Yii.

karasti

Where do we draw a line as far as what we consider music? If I meditate outside and the birds are singing (in summer I can hear them in the house all day anyhow) is that really different? Or is it different when it just happens to be there, rather than using it as a reference for one-pointedness?

For me, I cannot listen to chanting and other things because it takes me out of sync with my body. My understanding (from my teacher) is that part of the purpose of meditation is to bring body and mind together, which is why focusing on the breath works so well,it's always there and a good way to bring communication between the body and mind together. It seems like if you are focusing on something outside of the body you might lose that connection. I would, perhaps others would not.

Citta

Precisely. Bird song just happens to be there.The purpose of organised music is to elicit emotion. Which is OK in itself. But prevents awareness of other phenomena which are arising.
Extreme Theravadins avoid music altogether. Which in my view is not necessary.
But those practices which are derived from Anapanasati..Samatha, Vipassana, Zazen cannot be done WHILE listening to music.
The processes are far too subtle for two objects of focus.
Two points of focus cannot lead to one pointedness.

But don't take my word for this.
Ask any teacher of Samatha, Vipassana or Zazen.

karasti

On a related note there was just a study done about multitasking and proved pretty much without a doubt that it's not possible. Our minds can only focus on one thing at a time, they might notice other things coming and going (such as our thoughts when we focus on the breath) but it cannot focus on more than one thing. So that makes sense. I've known that to be true for myself, but wasn't sure if it was true for most other people.

Depending on your goal, sure, music or any # of things will work for focusing on. My mom listens to guided meditations all the time and she loves them. But she is not meditating to get to the nature of her mind or to even train her mind much. She more so does it to relax and prepare for her stressful job. It works for her, to be sure. But I wouldn't call it the same type of meditation.

Chaz

I never meditate to music, deliberately anyway. Like @Citta I don't think that it is an effective practice. My teachers have always discouraged it, too.

If I think such things are a complete waste of time, that should be irrelevant to you. If you think you can meditate to enya, I'm not going to argue the point.

Do what you like.

I would like to know what teachers, endorse meditation to music. Anyone?

lobster

I would like to know what teachers, endorse meditation to music. Anyone?

Perhaps only the basket cases . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakuhachi

Jeffrey

As I have already said it is not a substitute for sitting. At the same time there is nothing wrong with a stress relief practice. People do body scans before meditation to relax. Then you start the meditation when you feel relaxed.

Does that make sense @Chaz and @Citta?

Chaz

It makes sense, if you mean can I understand what you're saying.

Does it makes sense to do it? No. At least not from a Buddhist practice pov. If you're interested in techniques for stress reduction, fine. Whatever you can do to reduce stress is ok.

I was taught meditation, and practice it for other reasons. Stess reduction is simply a byproduct. I don't put much emphasis in outcomes like mindfullness. That's not the reason I'm doing it, either.

I don't releax and then meditate. I just sit down and meditate. It doesnt matter how iI feel at the time.

I don't do a body scan, either.

For me, meditation is more about the nature of mind. How I feel at the moment is irrelevant.

Citta

Sure @Jeffrey..relaxation can be highly beneficial.
The question is whether stress relief equals samyak smriti and samyak samadhi..
'Right Concentration ' and ' Right Meditative Absorption ' I would say that they are not the same thing.

Jeffrey

@Chaz, I am suggesting one use whatever method to relax and then start their meditaiton from that standpoint. So during the actual meditation you follow whatever method was given by the teacher. But that doesn't mean you can't use music to relax.

Chaz

Jeffrey said:

@Chaz, I am suggesting mini one use whatever method to relax and then start their meditaiton from that standpoint. So during the actual meditation you follow whatever method was given by the teacher. But that doesn't mean you can't use music to relax.

But what if you need to be in a meditative state and can't relax? I don't meditate when I'm stoned, but I've done before because it was necessary. Waiting till I wasn't high wasn't an option.

You should take whatever state you're in to the cushion. Waiting for a certain state is limiting.

Woah93

Who are you trying to convince? I do pay high value to mindfulness as it has very much so improved my life, and yes it is not my primary meditation, but I tend to mix it up from time to time to avoid having it become routine. All I read in these posts is I this I that and You should/shouldn't.

I started this thread to see if other people found it helpful not to start a debate on the "proper way" to meditate. Sure you are probably right when it comes to the perspective of teachings in buddhism, but I never said I'm a buddhist and follow it strictly to the letter.

I just experiment and if things create positive changes I consider it valid, no matter what other's have or haven't done I like to find out for myself if it is helpful or not, these rules and "facts"/textbook knowledge don't really mean that much to me compared to what I actually experience out there.

anataman

LOL

Attachment and Aversion. Cheers! time to go to the alcoholic thread, and see whats happening there.

Mettha

btw I like to meditate with my 'eyes' open.

You also have to meditate with your 'ears' open as well.

Perhaps you can meditate with your 'feelings', or your sense of 'smell' but then you'd be looked at as just a a dog (a bit like a GOD might look at a human IYKWIM). What a wonderful life it is to be a dog - my dog barks to go out, barks to come in, and just eats and drinks and I service those simple needs without question. Because I welcomed her into my family, and without me and my family, she wouldn't be here.

Silence isn't everything, teachers don't know everything, but I do know the buddha recognised that there were, what was it 184 000 types of person, and maybe, perhaps just maybe one of them meditated to music, and could become enlightened by it. Go for it @Woah93. I would next time refer to it as meditation in action, no one can really argue with that.

I know some tunes lifted my spirits when I was looking for something, and heres one of them, and it connects to at least 2 other threads here if you are paying attention:



Mettha ha ha

anataman

Namaste - heres something for you @Woah 93. I really liked that track in the OP. It resonates with me.

Here are some other intra-solar system noises as recorded by NASA to blow through your solar fields:

Mettha

karasti

I understand @Whoa93 but I think one should assume that asking questions about meditation on a *Buddhist* forum is going to get you a response mostly from the varying Buddhist points of view. That doesn't mean how you meditate is wrong in any way, or how anyone does it is wrong. But it can be considered incorrect in terms of Buddhist meditation based on what people learn from their Buddhist teachers and that's the type of answer you will get in a Buddhist forum.

Jeffrey

@Chaz, I think I wouldn't like to say I won't deal with whatever state I am in. If I am annoyed because the dog is barking then I just take that to the cushion. I definitely am in the school of making the obstacles the path. At the same time if I can relax and feel happy I don't see anything wrong implicitly with that feeling. I could point out that NOT relaxing is also a strategy. The mind noticing meditation is the same mind that likes music. What's important is the mind and I think you agree. So if there is music then take that to the meditation. I will acknowledge that you are on your own if you don't have a teacher. There is nobody to guide you if you are doing your own thing.. So it depends if your goal is enlightenment or relaxation exactly! It's just like if you want to be a serious art student you have to go to a school to learn techniques and you can't just be self taught unless you are Gramma Moses or Vincent Van Gogh?
Isn't that the heart of the disagreement? A proven method rather than going by whimsy?

how

@Woah93
The concept of deliberately introducing stimuli during a formal sitting practice would not follow any conventional Buddhist practice for reasons already stated on this thread.
Most of the resistance you are finding on this thread is because you are equating it with meditation on a Buddhist website.
What you are currently experiencing is better described as trance meditation and if that is what you wish to explore..just google trance meditation with music.

DairyLama

how said:

What you are currently experiencing is better described as trance meditation

Some of the early translators described jhana as a trance state...but maybe that's another discussion.

DairyLama

Chaz said:

For me, meditation is more about the nature of mind. How I feel at the moment is irrelevant.

Chaz, could you elaborate a bit on the difference between the two? Are you using "nature of mind" in a technical way here?

DairyLama

Citta said:

So when recognised as a Buddhist teacher ( for the sake of discussion ) you will hold the view that listening to music can be done at the same time..simultaneously, as samatha, vipassana, Zazen, or any form of anapanasati ? Brave.

When I'm recognised as a Buddhist teacher I'll make up anything I like. Though of course I will then have to ignore my own teachings as being unauthentic.:p

Zayl

This is a good Japanese chant, with amazing nature footage. I don't know why, but I love the Buddhist Japanese chants when I am trying to meditate. The droning reverberations almost give me an unearthly or ethereal feeling in my gut. (I recommend watching in HD if you can)

Citta

SpinyNorman said:

Citta said:

So when recognised as a Buddhist teacher ( for the sake of discussion ) you will hold the view that listening to music can be done at the same time..simultaneously, as samatha, vipassana, Zazen, or any form of anapanasati ? Brave.

When I'm recognised as a Buddhist teacher I'll make up anything I like. Though of course I will then have to ignore my own teachings as being unauthentic.:p

Yes, you didn't answer.
Do you think that listening to music can be done at the same time as samatha, vipassana, or any form of Anapanasati ? Can you cite any teachings that suggest that it is ?

On reflection I wonder if the Brahma Viharas can be done to music..possibly. I woudn't want to personally.

robot

I've been out to Wat Tham Seua near Krabi town, a number of times lately. They usually have some chanting playing over a PA system in what I am assuming is Pali. It is very musical and accompanied by what sounds like a metronome, or some rhythmic tapping sound. I was only able to understand when the chant was om mani peme hum, sung over and over for perhaps 45 minutes or more.
I was wondering if it is for the ambience of the Wat or for the benefit of the Bikkhus and bikkhunis living and meditating there.

Citta

If you ask the western monks who have spent time in Thailand they all say it drives them mad...
But they all like the congregational, non amplified chanting that they do before and after meditation.

DairyLama

Citta said:

Do you think that listening to music can be done at the same time as samatha, vipassana, or any form of Anapanasati ? Can you cite any teachings that suggest that it is ?

I think you're commenting from a limited perspective here. Don't forget that Buddhism has many different traditions, all with their own methods, assumptions and interpretations.

Citta

So from those traditions can you cite one that supports listening to music while practising samatha, vipassana or any form of anapanasati ?
You have been around the Buddhist block a few times as have I. Have you come across such a thing ?

DairyLama

Citta said:

So from those traditions can you cite one that supports listening to music while practising samatha, vipassana or any form of anapanasati ?
You have been around the Buddhist block a few times as have I. Have you come across such a thing ?

The closest I've seen is chanting, which is quite musical.

Citta

Not the same Norman is it...I am most certainly not anti-music in the right place. But I think there is good reason why its not advocated , even in the Mahayana, and certainly not in the Theravada, its because one pointedness is not possible with two objects of focus.

Chaz

SpinyNorman said:

Chaz said:

For me, meditation is more about the nature of mind. How I feel at the moment is irrelevant.

Chaz, could you elaborate a bit on the difference between the two? Are you using "nature of mind" in a technical way here?

Nature is the same as quality. Nature of mind is is the mind's inherent quality.

How I "feel" at any given moment is one thing, but mind's nature remains untouched, unchanged. Thus, feelings are irrelevant o my meditation.

Technical? In that context, I don't even know what the word means.

Yik_Yis_Yii

So rigid.

Yik_Yis_Yii

just to be clear, my "so rigid" response was to Citta's last post. Not @chaz.