if meditation uncovers impermanent

Jeffrey

all things are impermanent. So whatever happens in meditation is also impermanent. So why does it matter if we meditate or not? Either way whatever happens is impermanent. How do we get that insight that cuts through beyond creating good merit or punya.

pegembara

We meditate to see clearly this fact that all conditioned things are impermanent. Not everything is impermanent.

If that were so, there would be no escape to the unconditioned.
So meditation actually uncovers the permanent.

Seeing impermanence (anicca) is the key that opens mind to see suffering, and non-self! The moment we understand this very clearly, our mind opens
to the fact that things change without leaving a trace behind to follow the
path that impermanence has taken. This is called voidness or signlessness...
This awareness evaporates the desire for anything that is impermanent!
It also evaporates all aversion growing from our disappointed expectations.
Then naturally, this clean mind becomes fully aware of not having any agent,
immovable mover, or controller, which sometimes is called "Self, I, Me, Ego"
or even "Soul" by some people. This element of Dhamma, this basic intrinsic
nature of all, this law of Dhamma is known in Buddhism as emptiness of self!
The Blessed Buddha said: Sabbe Dhammā Anatta = All States are Selfless!
Seeing impermanence with wisdom is the key to detachment, calming, stilling,
ceasing, and releasing mental relinquishment. Joyous Freedom is the result!

By seeing the impermanence, suffering & selflessness thus in all conditioned
things in this and any other world, one naturally becomes disenchanted with
everything constructed. Disenchantment leads to disillusion and dispassion
towards everything. Within a dispassionate mind craving for everything will
gradually fade away (virāga). With this insight one lets go of all attachment.
Being dispassionate, one thereby liberates oneself from all this evil misery...
Being liberated, one knows that one is liberated, has ended rebirth, has lived
the Noble life, has done what should be done, and that there is nothing more
to be done! This means that attaining full freedom from all suffering indeed
begins with this very perfect and acute awareness of impermanence...!

Bhante Gunaratana

Sabbe sankhara anicca - all conditioned things
sabbe sankhara dukkha
Sabbe dhamma anatta - all things

Nirvana

Words! Words! Words! (Edit: @Jeffrey)

And all they are, to quote Shakespeare's Falstaff, is "Puffs of air."

I do not think that Shakyamuni ever saw any virtue in pursuing the uncatchable. All things are impermanent except for consciousness, without which one cannot know either permanence or impermanence. And consciousness is an activity whose very essence is awareness of change, be it slow, gentle stillness or rapid explosive impact. In other words, in the same way that change is the only constant, so is consciousness. But all of its continuities are the stuff of the Great Unknown.

As for me, the upanishadic views are paradigmatic of what I believe is the universal essence to be realized.

We can only argue back and forth and follow after our own chosen schools. I do not believe it possible that one size fits all, as it were, though.

how

Meditation is about the observer not fiddling around with the arising and departing of phenomena. This leads to the softening and dissolving of the observers identity which was all that ever hindered insight or merit.
&
While all is impermanent, the experience of suffering is still real in this moment.

lobster

Jeffrey said:

all things are impermanent. So whatever happens in meditation is also impermanent. So why does it matter if we meditate or not? Either way whatever happens is impermanent. How do we get that insight that cuts through beyond creating good merit or punya.

Nirvana is not 'a thing', it has no qualities of arising, permanency or existence. You have referred to it in the past as 'spaciousness' but it does not have dimensional attributes.
You know all that.

Good merit creates a sense of stillness and completion, we no longer have unresolved issues. It stills us.
Sitting still, stills us.
Above all, the 'emptiness of the spacious' is a form of stillness. The longer we reside in stillness, the more our 'residual karma' can play out, our nature can be stilling and . . . everyone, all our selves, live happily ever after . . .

The End.

pegembara

The suffering is there because of the clinging, no matter how subtle it is. Great clinging, great suffering; less clinging less suffering; no clinging ......

"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."

"In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.101.than.html

DairyLama

Jeffrey said:

How do we get that insight that cuts through beyond creating good merit or punya.

I'd guess that most of us have "small" insights from time to time. Like when you go on a retreat and things begin to seem much clearer - then you go home and rapidly get caught up in the daily routine again! So maybe part of it is valuing those small insights, and not forgetting them?

anataman

Sometimes I sit and the world appears overwhelmingly magical in its manifestation! Forms appear to fill this wonderful field of awareness dancing with their inner light and singing a blissful lullaby to me; often they will caress my skin and arouse an emotion and think aloud so only I can hear what is being conceptualizer; sometimes they will tickle my nostrils with a beautiful aroma and gift the taste buds with pleasurable fruit.

In meditation I see how this magical show appears to imply a magician... But I also see the magician is a figment of my imagination....?

With this in mind one now recognizes just how magical this place is where I can see my self so clearly!

Keep meditating @Jeffrey if only to watch the magic show as when you see through the illusion the magician will no longer be in control

Mettha

seeker242

Dhammapada 282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase.

It's really only impermanent if you slack off and stop doing it.

Zero

Jeffrey said:

So why does it matter if we meditate or not?

What else is there to do with the mind?

fivebells

Perceiving phenomena in terms of the three characteristics is a tool for fostering dispassion. It allows you to see that what you're clinging to is bound to let you down. That makes it easier to release the clinging, and bring an end to the suffering it's causing.

We meditate, as always, to bring an end to suffering. All the theory is just a set of tools of perception designed for that purpose, and these tools can be picked up when they're useful, and set down again when they've done their job. And sometimes, even though a tool is well-made, it can be an inappropriate tool to pick up. If the perception of inconstancy is diminishing your attachment to a healthy meditation practice, it's the wrong tool for the moment.

betaboy

lobster said:

Jeffrey said:

all things are impermanent. So whatever happens in meditation is also impermanent. So why does it matter if we meditate or not? Either way whatever happens is impermanent. How do we get that insight that cuts through beyond creating good merit or punya.

Nirvana is not 'a thing', it has no qualities of arising, permanency or existence. You have referred to it in the past as 'spaciousness' but it does not have dimensional attributes.
You know all that.

Good merit creates a sense of stillness and completion, we no longer have unresolved issues. It stills us.
Sitting still, stills us.
Above all, the 'emptiness of the spacious' is a form of stillness. The longer we reside in stillness, the more our 'residual karma' can play out, our nature can be stilling and . . . everyone, all our selves, live happily ever after . . .

The End.

@lobster, are you okay? You almost sound normal.

genkaku

Just because a person reads innumerable books or imbibes endless philosophies about playing the piano (impermanence) does not mean s/he knows squat about playing the piano.

Meditation is a good tool for actually knowing what anyone might loudly claim to know.

One of the nice things about actually knowing something is that you can stop wasting time alleging that you know something... a little extra time to rearrange the sock drawer.

Jeffrey

lobster said:

Jeffrey said:

all things are impermanent. So whatever happens in meditation is also impermanent. So why does it matter if we meditate or not? Either way whatever happens is impermanent. How do we get that insight that cuts through beyond creating good merit or punya.

Nirvana is not 'a thing', it has no qualities of arising, permanency or existence. You have referred to it in the past as 'spaciousness' but it does not have dimensional attributes.
You know all that.

Good merit creates a sense of stillness and completion, we no longer have unresolved issues. It stills us.
Sitting still, stills us.
Above all, the 'emptiness of the spacious' is a form of stillness. The longer we reside in stillness, the more our 'residual karma' can play out, our nature can be stilling and . . . everyone, all our selves, live happily ever after . . .

The End.

I don't recall my teacher saying that space has dimensions. In fact she says 'heart connections' are dimensionless. Just defending her honor!

federica

betaboy said:

@lobster, are you okay? You almost sound normal.

....How would YOU know -?!

betaboy

federica said:

betaboy said:

@lobster, are you okay? You almost sound normal.

....How would YOU know -?!

Lobster told me.

DairyLama

Zero said:

Jeffrey said:

So why does it matter if we meditate or not?

What else is there to do with the mind?

Well they say the devil finds work for idle hands...and idle minds?

wangchuey

Jeffrey said:

all things are impermanent. So whatever happens in meditation is also impermanent. So why does it matter if we meditate or not? Either way whatever happens is impermanent. How do we get that insight that cuts through beyond creating good merit or punya.

I think this is why we try to develop a single focus in meditation. It is because that focus is supposed to helps us see the true nature of our meditation object. It is through that focus that we reach clear seeing. Once we see that the true nature of our meditation object is impermanent, stressful, and void of self, we can begin to accept it and let go. Once we reach letting go, we have gained insight.