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How I personally feel about death, if I get offended, is not as important to me as being able to discern if and when I am about to hurt someone else's feelings. I have a history of making insensitive remarks, and would like to try harder not to do that. Why should I concern myself with what another person does or does not understand or fear? Speaking appropriately is what I am shooting for.
I think that if someone understands death, they have nothing to prove. They can laugh if something is funny. Or be solemn and serious when it is called for.
@Zero said:
When someone takes offence they are reacting to both you and themselves - the answer here that it is due to their fear / isolation / ignorance and that on your part there is some superior knowledge is, in my opinion, the error.
I think we need to take a good look at what we mean by 'joke'.. this has been commented on already but I think it is crucial to point out that a joke can be light hearted and playful or malice and cruel.
Obviously we cannot for the most part enter the consciousness of an enlightened being, or even a very wise one, lets exclude Lobster for a sec. This goes back to Brahm and I wish I could remember which talk it was when he stated he was laughing and joking with a monk seconds before a funeral sermon. It is just LIFE, that is all it is, a passageway from there to here and to wherever next, a short passage in time.
@Citta I love that. See, any joke based around something can be good for all at a certain time, if put into words well. Objectively speaking, joking about death is no different to joking about birth or eating your breakfast
I think we need to take a good look at what we mean by 'joke'.. this has been commented on already but I think it is crucial to point out that a joke can be light hearted and playful or malice and cruel.
Obviously we cannot for the most part enter the consciousness of an enlightened being, or even a very wise one, lets exclude Lobster for a sec. This goes back to Brahm and I wish I could remember which talk it was when he stated he was laughing and joking with a monk seconds before a funeral sermon. It is just LIFE, that is all it is, a passageway from there to here and to wherever next, a short passage in time.
Again, I think you're concentrating on how you see it rather than taking responsibility for your part in the equation.
I'm not sure on the context of the Brahm example - did he mention that someone else was offended as a result and what then as a result of the offence?
I don't think I'd need to enter anyone's consciousness to see that if my actions cause friction such as offence then there is an issue and as is often with these things of cause and effect, there is a cause for which I am responsible; an equal fear/isolation/ignorance of sorts.
Better to deal with that than cause/contribute to more friction/entanglement.
I forget now but he was very merry and laughing about it, knowing the people of that funeral could be watching.. His joke I don't think was snide or offensive, i just think it was a frame of mind to have during such a time? I cannot remember and must find a source.
I did not make this thread based upon my own take on how death should be handled and neither did I make it as a means to make fun of death, so within your first sentence I think you and I have our wires crossed..
Like @robot said....I think it's about being sensitive to the other person and if/when they are ready to laugh about it.
Yes, it all boils down to fear....but laughing AT someones fear and them going through the acceptance of death may not be the most skillful ....
It can happen as described by the previous funeral stories...but just telling a joke about death or that person should be about them. Deep listening might be able to tell you when the time is right.
@Vastmind that brings a lot of clarity into the conversation, thank you
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I know that those closely involved in the industries of 'preserving life' and 'dealing with death' can occasionally demonstrate macabre traits in their humour.
A good friend of mine is an ER nurse and regularly attends scenes of carnage as a medic with the ambulance. She tells me the sense of humour she and her colleagues have, helps them to cope with the horror of what they often witness.
The only factor of their job they have a hard time finding anything remotely 'funny' to joke about, is when children are involved....
The Neighbour I had when I lived in Aldershot was actually a mortician. You really don't want to know to what levels of humour he and his colleagues descended. But again, it was to 'level the playing field', and he was extremely blase, and matter-of-fact about the whole deal.
One of the tenants we share our current abode with, is a Scotsman whose mother lived in NYC. He lost her to the 9/11 tragedy.
He tears up just talking about it. Would I try to lighten the mood, in any way? Absolutely not.
My father died in 2010, and I was present during his 'passing'. (I began a thread about it, if some of you recall....) I can find humour in the situation, for myself. My Mother still mourns, misses and grieves for him, and no, I would never crack a joke about it, ever. Unless, of course, she does so first....
I think you have to be receptive to how other people are comfortable (or otherwise) processing and digesting the fact of Life and Death, and act accordingly.
@federica nice to hear from you since it has been a while..
You have (in my opinion), given a very unbiased and objective point of view on the subject, which is a good thing lol. Also you seem to basically say what @Vastmind said but with detail and personal experiences.
I would like so much to take away the ignorance of those who grieve, this is maybe the thing in life that annoys me the most but I try to shut up about it. When people are clearly being ignorant of the dharma, this is not their fault as through conditioning there are that way, but you care for someone and they just do not listen. Like my mum who is being stretched to the limits as a teacher in the UK, she cannot even get an early retirement and she is already 56, but she is and always has been ignorant in this sense. She is anxious about trivial things, tries her best for others but does not care much for herself, and operates in a very unwise way according to the 8 fold path. I try to help in a subtle way but she is stubborn.
People like this, i.e about 95% of the population are wrapped up in attachment, ignorance and greed. Again, it is not their fault, these are common lay people, or as the Buddha said 'average people'.
I agree with what you and vastminds have said, you both speak a similar tone.
@ThailandTom said:
Why do some people find it really offensive or negative to joke about death?
Death is just another part of life, so why is it such a taboo thing to joke about?
My point was as a balance to the notion that offence is taken by some because they're fearful or ignorant and therefore to point out that equally this plays both ways when an interaction is propagated.
I suppose it's a proposition to resolve the issue within that cause annoyance or the view that others are ignorant or if they are that it is possible to be more ignorant somehow other that just mutual ignorance.
To thus seek to avoid this quandary:
@ThailandTom said:
I would like so much to take away the ignorance of those who grieve,
this is maybe the thing in life that annoys me the most but I try to shut up about it.
When people are clearly being ignorant of the dharma, this is not their fault as through conditioning there are that way, but you care for someone and they just do not listen.
Like my mum who is being stretched to the limits as a teacher in the UK, she cannot even get an early retirement and she is already 56, but she is and always has been ignorant in this sense. She is anxious about trivial things, tries her best for others but does not care much for herself, and operates in a very unwise way according to the 8 fold path. I try to help in a subtle way but she is stubborn.
People like this, i.e about 95% of the population are wrapped up in attachment, ignorance and greed. Again, it is not their fault, these are common lay people, or as the Buddha said 'average people'.
At one end of the spectrum the degree of levity is inverted in relation to the degree of separation. The further it is away, the worse we feel about it. This also includes missing people. Is the sense of loss comparable? Never knowing and always being in the dark, not being able to touch a loved one? I think it is usually the case of not knowing what we have until it is gone. We often can't stand being around one another, but suddenly add a few aeons or some measure of space/time separation and we can't wait to greet one another.
At the other end of the spectrum the degree of levity is somewhat proportional to the level of separation, in other words how comfortable we are around 'perceived' risk. Take that big glowing thing in the sky, for example: "haha! I am the sun. No-one can touch me. Step back puny humans!" We're all like: "How far away shall we step back O fiery ball of doom? Is 90,000,000 miles ok? You cool with that?" And the sun is like:_ "Yes, that is sufficient, you may continue!"_
So, yeah, proximity is something to think about. We're all content with stuff whizzing around so long there's a bit of control there. It's when stuff collides that everything goes haywire; when something is broken and/or missing. The whole experience is variable.
Being a descendant of Immagrant Slavonic anthracite coal miners, joking about death was commonplace. Even today we do, and it's come as no suprise that some are a bit taken aback. Why? Don't know, all I can say is why fear the only thing we have to do in this life time. But, consideration must be made to those who fear, as for me . . . I'm an organ donar, take what what you need, cremate the rest and throw the ash in the face of the Pennsylvania governor. Hey!, the only way I know I can actually show him my love. :coffee:
Comments
How I personally feel about death, if I get offended, is not as important to me as being able to discern if and when I am about to hurt someone else's feelings. I have a history of making insensitive remarks, and would like to try harder not to do that. Why should I concern myself with what another person does or does not understand or fear? Speaking appropriately is what I am shooting for.
I think that if someone understands death, they have nothing to prove. They can laugh if something is funny. Or be solemn and serious when it is called for.
I think we need to take a good look at what we mean by 'joke'.. this has been commented on already but I think it is crucial to point out that a joke can be light hearted and playful or malice and cruel.
Obviously we cannot for the most part enter the consciousness of an enlightened being, or even a very wise one, lets exclude Lobster for a sec. This goes back to Brahm and I wish I could remember which talk it was when he stated he was laughing and joking with a monk seconds before a funeral sermon. It is just LIFE, that is all it is, a passageway from there to here and to wherever next, a short passage in time.
Also what? lol seriously what made you want to puke? Tom Cruise?
My cousin Terry died young a few years after his sister Jean who also died young.
I was sitting in the pub with Terry's widow and Jean's widower.
The subject got round to the subject of their ashes ...they were planning to inter the ashes in the same plot.
' We should do it soon ' said Terry's widow. ' They are in the airing cupboard at the moment. and Terry always hated the heat '.
Yup.
@Citta I love that. See, any joke based around something can be good for all at a certain time, if put into words well. Objectively speaking, joking about death is no different to joking about birth or eating your breakfast
Carlton?
LOL. Okay, I feel better.
I think we need to take a good look at what we mean by 'joke'.. this has been commented on already but I think it is crucial to point out that a joke can be light hearted and playful or malice and cruel.
Obviously we cannot for the most part enter the consciousness of an enlightened being, or even a very wise one, lets exclude Lobster for a sec. This goes back to Brahm and I wish I could remember which talk it was when he stated he was laughing and joking with a monk seconds before a funeral sermon. It is just LIFE, that is all it is, a passageway from there to here and to wherever next, a short passage in time.
Again, I think you're concentrating on how you see it rather than taking responsibility for your part in the equation.
I'm not sure on the context of the Brahm example - did he mention that someone else was offended as a result and what then as a result of the offence?
I don't think I'd need to enter anyone's consciousness to see that if my actions cause friction such as offence then there is an issue and as is often with these things of cause and effect, there is a cause for which I am responsible; an equal fear/isolation/ignorance of sorts.
Better to deal with that than cause/contribute to more friction/entanglement.
I forget now but he was very merry and laughing about it, knowing the people of that funeral could be watching.. His joke I don't think was snide or offensive, i just think it was a frame of mind to have during such a time? I cannot remember and must find a source.
I did not make this thread based upon my own take on how death should be handled and neither did I make it as a means to make fun of death, so within your first sentence I think you and I have our wires crossed..
Like @robot said....I think it's about being sensitive to the other person and if/when they are ready to laugh about it.
Yes, it all boils down to fear....but laughing AT someones fear and them going through the acceptance of death may not be the most skillful ....
It can happen as described by the previous funeral stories...but just telling a joke about death or that person should be about them. Deep listening might be able to tell you when the time is right.
@Vastmind that brings a lot of clarity into the conversation, thank you
I know that those closely involved in the industries of 'preserving life' and 'dealing with death' can occasionally demonstrate macabre traits in their humour.
A good friend of mine is an ER nurse and regularly attends scenes of carnage as a medic with the ambulance. She tells me the sense of humour she and her colleagues have, helps them to cope with the horror of what they often witness.
The only factor of their job they have a hard time finding anything remotely 'funny' to joke about, is when children are involved....
The Neighbour I had when I lived in Aldershot was actually a mortician. You really don't want to know to what levels of humour he and his colleagues descended. But again, it was to 'level the playing field', and he was extremely blase, and matter-of-fact about the whole deal.
One of the tenants we share our current abode with, is a Scotsman whose mother lived in NYC. He lost her to the 9/11 tragedy.
He tears up just talking about it. Would I try to lighten the mood, in any way? Absolutely not.
My father died in 2010, and I was present during his 'passing'. (I began a thread about it, if some of you recall....) I can find humour in the situation, for myself. My Mother still mourns, misses and grieves for him, and no, I would never crack a joke about it, ever. Unless, of course, she does so first....
I think you have to be receptive to how other people are comfortable (or otherwise) processing and digesting the fact of Life and Death, and act accordingly.
@federica nice to hear from you since it has been a while..
You have (in my opinion), given a very unbiased and objective point of view on the subject, which is a good thing lol. Also you seem to basically say what @Vastmind said but with detail and personal experiences.
I would like so much to take away the ignorance of those who grieve, this is maybe the thing in life that annoys me the most but I try to shut up about it. When people are clearly being ignorant of the dharma, this is not their fault as through conditioning there are that way, but you care for someone and they just do not listen. Like my mum who is being stretched to the limits as a teacher in the UK, she cannot even get an early retirement and she is already 56, but she is and always has been ignorant in this sense. She is anxious about trivial things, tries her best for others but does not care much for herself, and operates in a very unwise way according to the 8 fold path. I try to help in a subtle way but she is stubborn.
People like this, i.e about 95% of the population are wrapped up in attachment, ignorance and greed. Again, it is not their fault, these are common lay people, or as the Buddha said 'average people'.
I agree with what you and vastminds have said, you both speak a similar tone.
Death is just another part of life, so why is it such a taboo thing to joke about?
My point was as a balance to the notion that offence is taken by some because they're fearful or ignorant and therefore to point out that equally this plays both ways when an interaction is propagated.
I suppose it's a proposition to resolve the issue within that cause annoyance or the view that others are ignorant or if they are that it is possible to be more ignorant somehow other that just mutual ignorance.
To thus seek to avoid this quandary:
this is maybe the thing in life that annoys me the most but I try to shut up about it.
When people are clearly being ignorant of the dharma, this is not their fault as through conditioning there are that way, but you care for someone and they just do not listen.
Like my mum who is being stretched to the limits as a teacher in the UK, she cannot even get an early retirement and she is already 56, but she is and always has been ignorant in this sense. She is anxious about trivial things, tries her best for others but does not care much for herself, and operates in a very unwise way according to the 8 fold path. I try to help in a subtle way but she is stubborn.
People like this, i.e about 95% of the population are wrapped up in attachment, ignorance and greed. Again, it is not their fault, these are common lay people, or as the Buddha said 'average people'.
Thank you, that has answered a question I didn't even know I already had asked myself subconsciously
For what little part I played, glad to be of assistance.
At one end of the spectrum the degree of levity is inverted in relation to the degree of separation. The further it is away, the worse we feel about it. This also includes missing people. Is the sense of loss comparable? Never knowing and always being in the dark, not being able to touch a loved one? I think it is usually the case of not knowing what we have until it is gone. We often can't stand being around one another, but suddenly add a few aeons or some measure of space/time separation and we can't wait to greet one another.
At the other end of the spectrum the degree of levity is somewhat proportional to the level of separation, in other words how comfortable we are around 'perceived' risk. Take that big glowing thing in the sky, for example: "haha! I am the sun. No-one can touch me. Step back puny humans!" We're all like: "How far away shall we step back O fiery ball of doom? Is 90,000,000 miles ok? You cool with that?" And the sun is like:_ "Yes, that is sufficient, you may continue!"_
So, yeah, proximity is something to think about. We're all content with stuff whizzing around so long there's a bit of control there. It's when stuff collides that everything goes haywire; when something is broken and/or missing. The whole experience is variable.
Being a descendant of Immagrant Slavonic anthracite coal miners, joking about death was commonplace. Even today we do, and it's come as no suprise that some are a bit taken aback. Why? Don't know, all I can say is why fear the only thing we have to do in this life time. But, consideration must be made to those who fear, as for me . . . I'm an organ donar, take what what you need, cremate the rest and throw the ash in the face of the Pennsylvania governor. Hey!, the only way I know I can actually show him my love. :coffee: