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Joking About Death
ThailandTom
Veteran
Why do some people find it really offensive or negative to joke about death? I don't mean to make fun of a recently dead person, but say joke about me dying tomorrow or a friend in a plane journey? Joking about someone who has passed is widely looked down upon, but I have heard Ajahn Brahm say how him and his fellow monk who conduct funerals would walk to the ceremony happy and even maybe crack a joke about the thing, whereas everyone else is understandably sad. Death is just another part of life, so why is it such a taboo thing to joke about? Especially here in Thailand, it I joke about it I can get into pretty serious arguments.
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Because everyone reacts and responds to things different. No matter what the topic, to make questionable jokes you have to know your audience...and know them well. I can joke about it pretty often, but not with everyone, and that's ok. I don't get to tell them how to feel. If I had recently lost a spouse or a child, I might or might not be as funny about making death jokes as I can be now. Just depends on the person, like always. Death causes the most pain to people in the world, and not everyone deals with it well. Parents who lose children, wives who lose husbands in war (or vice versa), friends who lose friends to suicide, and so on. And sometimes, it's just too soon for jokes, like the plane jokes are sensitive to a lot of people because they haven't even found the plane yet and it feels, to them, like their missing loved one is now a punchline, and that hurts them. Some people see it is disrespect for the dead. Which, from a Buddhist point of view is kind of funny. But not everyone is Buddhist.
I'm sure you won't die tomorrow, Tom. Now, day after tomorrow, I'm not so sure. LOLOLOLOLOL.
I remember a discussion we had about your fear for your mother dying. Remember? How do you think you would feel about a joke about that?
Namaste,
I'm not quite sure how I feel about this to be honest. It never bothered me before either way. Now that I know it's coming sooner rather than later, I sometimes crack jokes about my own death as a coping mechanism or to lighten the mood. But I'm always mindful of other people's feelings.
In metta,
Raven
Most people have not yet developed a sense of dispassion or nibbida yet. They feel that thinking about it creates negativity. Another reason is that some cultures are highly superstitous and they fear that mentioning it or joking about it creates a bad omen.
Indeed but it is difficult because people are triggered by different things. For example the skull and bones is a wonderful deep symbol, used by pirates (allegedly), Templars and tantrikas. To me it is a symbol of life (strange as that may seem).
I notice you have a naughty sense of humour (me too). Some people are deeply offended by sexual innuendo or other areas . . . and so in the interests of bad taste . . .
Of course you have to be mindful of how you might offend someone. No matter what you say, someone will take it the wrong way. For instance @Chaz gets upset when anyone uses Namaste or Metta in a comment, drives him to take it out on his cushion.
However, as death is the great illusion, it needs to be seen with a sense of humour, or life can be just miserable.
Very broadly, jokes and laughter I think are social cues / responses that have varied purposes within a social structure. I've found for myself for example that laughter arises say from a surprise correlation but this is not everything - there are a myriad of causes and effects.
For these purposes, say that there seem to be broadly two types of joke; say one that is shared and one that isn't.
I personally don't find the 'isn't' category to be useful for social cohesion.
In a way, sharing a joke and a laugh with someone is a lapse to unthreatening behaviour and it serves as a type of bond.
Laughing at someone seems somewhat the opposite, an unshared correlation is much more akin to a threat.
When approaching such a subject as death, it is challenging assessing where all the correlations sit and which strings they're pulling.
I think therefore that in these situations, one needs to tread carefully when pulling surprises to be sure that the correlation is shared; That the laughter is mutual rather than a subtle (even in others' subjectivity) condescension.
one simple word.. Fear
and ignorance I would suggest
@Jayantha nailed it right on the head.
Humans have been trying to cope with death for ages, and like the development of elaborate religious systems motivated by fear of the inevitable I think joking about it is just another way or part of coping as well.
true, fear stems from the ignorance
yes it is, but for a much smaller part of the population. I think it's probably fairly healthy in many ways to joke about death as opposed to what most do. The rest are content to never think about death unless they are FORCED to, ie when someone they know dies.
I suppose it's partly based on experience, I still can't imagine someone being 50 years old and still having their parents and grandparents alive, but it happens. Then you have the opposite end of the spectrum where people lose everyone very early in life. Both can be dangerous. I had a fairly continuous every few years stream of death starting from Age 10 with my grandfather to my wife 8 years ago that definitely helped to shape my view on death and life. I saw how everyone around me treated death throughout the years and it never felt right to me, I always felt it was better to celebrate someone's life then cry over their death.
I applaud that joke.. because it makes you think about death when you are trying to avoid it, the person hearing the joke may lash out at the joke teller, but his reaction is based totally on his sheltered mind having a much needed shock that will hopefully teach the person to appreciate their mother more. It's not the most skillful way to go about it, but I don't see it as very unskillful either.
Anytime you joke about another persons loss, it is unskillful, and it's supremely arrogant to think that you have the right to try to teach someone that way.
I friend of mine who is 72 has been struggling with cancer for a couple of years now. We can joke about his death. He said that I can have her new car and half the house if I marry his wife when he's gone. Lol.
Should I be teaching him by joking about his sister's death? Or about his children? Never!
This man has not been sheltered from death. He spent his life in the fishing and logging industries.
Interestingly, both of his parents are still alive.
Joking about death in general can be acceptable. Joking about an individual's death and grieving is only for people who know each other intimately.
Its been my experience that people who have actually faced death and lived to tell the tale, generally don't joke about it. They also don't find peoples jokes about it very funny, either. They seem to see it as egregiously stupid. I can relate. I should have been dead twice .. actually thought death was inescapable. Walking away from that is sobering to say the least. I also have cancer.. one that is probaly incureable. Death is a very real and serious matter.
You wanna joke about death? You honestly have no idea or are in complete denial.
Feel free to offer tasteless jokes, though.Remember, cruel can be funny too.
@ThailandTom
Meditation is eventually our acceptance of life and death within each moment. How this contrasts with our tenacious grasping after self (for practitioners) easily becomes the fodder for humor for how truly ludicrous we all can be about it. This humor is often a reminder of a spiritual fearlessness that is part of selflessness as opposed to the more common worldly fear of a loss of self.
Determining when this humor can be** shared** and when it can't is called skillful means.
If you are not sure which situation you are in, then the potential for compassion, love and wisdom can simply result in greed, hate or delusion. This is a place where anyone who cares for others should tread carefully.
The response said how would YOU feel about the joke and i made the response based on how id feel, has nothing to do with others. Admittedly when dealing with people and their loss directly its not necessarily a good thing to joke about.
Considering others as sheltered or ignorant is an interesting concept which will inevitably lead to conflict especially where no responsibility is taken for each participant's role in the process. Passive aggressive behaviour modification on the unsuspecting doesn't sit well - it feels like an unnecessary judgement, a self imposed condition which serves no purpose when we're all human doing our human thing. In a sense I feel one is running the risk of laughing at oneself without a chance of recognising it.
Yes facing death death can be a very sobering experience @Chaz, I have faced my fair share of it, and we all have to face it alone eventually. So don't play that card; like you are the only one who has insight. Your response is grounding, and it evokes compassion for your predicament. You have a diagnosis and time to make peace with yourself, family, friends and enemies. Some people do not.
Some of your comments, not necessarily about death, but about other things have also at times been interpreted as cruel and insipid, but I don't want you to feel bad about that. I dealt with it, just like I am dealing with my death, with seriousness and always with a sense of humour. View is important here.
Of course, expressing a view will inevitably disturb emotions in people, based on what they are experiencing at that time be it there own mortality, a loved ones death, a family pet being run over etc. However, turning in on these feelings and understanding why they are causing these emotions is probably more productive than flinging out that energy to incite and agitate others.
The OP asked about joking about death. Death should be viewed seriously, but like life there are also other views to consider.
The way I see it a good joke is always welcome and a bad joke is an insult no matter what it is about.
But for a good joke timing is important and proper dosage. Also I think in humor human emotions are taken very, very seriously.
There’s a beautiful paradox here: it takes great sensitivity to get away with an insensitive joke. It’s an art, making people laugh instead of making them angry or depressed, when it’s often such a close call.
So (imho) joking about death is not wrong or disrespectful or something. It’s just extremely difficult to get it right.
I almost never make jokes; I'm not good enough.
And that is all about understanding. Don't joke about something unless you feel confident of your intention and approach to being reproached, or worry about being broached. I won't defend what I say 'in infinitum', but I will defend my good will and intent to you all, with a sense of humour. Live and let die!
Mettha
Why did the Buddhist mortician get fired?
Because he always listed the cause of death as birth.
Jim grabbed his suitcase off the luggage carousel and headed outside to hail a taxi. A taxi promptly picked him up and they were on there way. Twenty minutes into the ride Jim had a question for the taxi driver, “Excuse me sir” said Jim tapping the driver on the shoulder. “AHHHH
HHH” screamed the taxi driver swerving the taxi across three lanes of traffic finally stopping the car on the opposite shoulder. “What the heck was that all about?” demanded Jim thoroughly shaken. “I’m sorry,” said the taxi driver, wiping his brow, “this is my first day on the job, I’ve been driving a hearse for the last fifty years!”
Embrace death, embrace life. People are land 'mines'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kisa_Gotami
Death is an emotive subject that nobody escapes. @how advises well about treading carefully. People get angry when they feel people are not of good will and intention. Many of us have faced our mortality or those we care about.
We were passing a hospice in the car. They were having a fund raising, with bunting and flags over the railings. My comment was, 'seems like they are celebrating, another bed has become free'.
Tasteless, no doubt. Not something I would share with strangers . . .
People are entitled to their fear and ignorance as mentioned, this must be taken into account in a world of angry and death avoiding people . . .
We my friends, are on a Buddhist forum. Death is welcome here, fear and ignorance is welcome, many of us are new or wannabe Buddhists . . . be patient with us . . .
and yes Mr Cushion - I did 'think of the children' . . .
There is a story about Ven Dr. K Sri Dhammananda's doctor who reported that when he told the venerable he had terminal cancer he burst out laughing and this was the only patient who had ever done that.
And of course Ajahn Brahm's story of when he was a young monk in Thailand and he was in the hospital very sick with malaria. Ajahn Chah came to visit him and Ajahn Brahm talks about how excited and honored he was that his teacher visited him. He said that Ajahn Chah came in, said " Brahm, you will either get better, or you'll die" and then he walked out.
Brahm also said when his father died, he did not feel sad and neither did he cry, because he remembered the good memories and thought of their time together like a concert. When a concert is over, you do not cry because it has finished. Those were his words paraphrased anyway. It boils down to how much attachment and ignorance we have IMO
My wife and I finally got around to seeing a lawyer to get a will put together (boy, are the grown kids going to be surprised). But when we started talking about the value of insurance policies, etc, we couldn't help joking about if I disappeared now, she'd be a suspect because I was worth more dead than alive, and she said that she'd probably be guilty anyway but they still had to prove it, etc. I told the lawyer he'd probably heard all the jokes before, and he said everyone jokes a bit when it gets to dealing with death. I guess it's just human nature.
Do these examples address making jokes about death and offending others?
When my father passed away, me, my mom and my sister were talking with the funeral home director about arrangements. We started to talk about the type of casket we wanted and my mom says, "Do you have any coupons?". We all smiled at that as my dad was a dedicated bargain shopper. It also let the director know he wasn't going to be able to "guilt" us into a top-of-line product.
They are stories where death is laughed at/about. So id say yes. Ajahn brahm also tells a story about doing a funeral and starting to talk about the grandmother who died but it was the grandfather who died and the woman was right there. He tells that story laughing and i think its hilarious.
Then there is another funeral story he tells about how the husband loved kayaking and they made a wooden one for the body to be in as it went into the incinerator or some such ajd he laughingly describes a scene of the kayak getting stuck and the wife and family trying to push it in.
Someone in this thread before made a comment to the extent that of youve experienced death or your own mortality via almost dieing, that you take it more serious.
I agree and disagree, the more you understand death, the less you fear it, and lack of fear allows you to laugh at these kinds of stories. Taking it seriously doesnt have to mean being offended about it but rather truely understanding it leads to greater appreciation of life and not having time to be offended.
A mixture of watching Ajahn Brahm joke about death and talk about death, coupled with the people around me with their views and reactions to death encouraged me to bring it up here.
from as early as I began to learn about how various cultures handled death, around age 12 maybe, I always liked the concept of the irish propping up the corpse and giving it a beer.. Im not sure if thats a REAL thing or not, but I always liked the concept, celebrating instead of grieving.
growing up italian and going to all the funerals I went to growing up, I had to listen to the "whalers" do their thing each time... oi..
I cannot remember who said this, it may had been Brahm, but they said that funerals are for the living, not for the dead. This is very true.
As for the Irish corpse deal, I personally have never heard about it. But that being said the Irish tend to have one hell of a wake, quite like the Thais do actually, they get really really smashed and celebrate.
By the way where in Italy if you don't mind me asking?
I'm first generation American on my mother's side. She was born in a little town on a hill called parlamiti in Calabria, came to America when she was 5 with her family in 1955.
On my dad's father's side i'm 3rd generation, they were from Naples.
Oh right, thanks I was just curious if you grew up in a place where I knew someone, but you obviously did not. Anyway back t thread if you have anything to add
I am glad we can talk about death in a positive way, all joking aside.
When my children's father died, the kids each brought something for him, a note and a special treat of his to put in the casket. The oldest, who was 12 at the time, brought him a big bag of Fig Newtons, and then said "well, at least you won't get diarrhea from them now." It was a much needed light-hearted moment. And a joke his dad would have well appreciated.
My Dad died of ALS when I was 17. It was a long drawn out affair of discomfort at home despite the morphine. He was not particularly religious with thoughts about what followed death even though he was the son of a Scottish Presbyterian Minister.
So after he died, my mom, sister, his mom and I were sitting in our car outside of the crematoria before the ceremony each in their own sad story.
There was a vague conversation going on about where Dad might be now.
A big German Shepperd bounced up out of nowhere, pawed furiously in the garden bark mulch right in front of us, came up with a very long bone and ran off.
There was a moment of stunned silence in the car before everything erupted in helpless side splitting laughter at what seemed like the sacrilegious humor of it all.
What followed was a funeral where none of us could even catch each others eye or we'd have lost it again in the same way.
I survived 3rd stage cancer at 21 and at almost 39, I'm facing it for sure with a terminal illness. I also have no idea how long I have left and how quickly I will go downhill before I die (I'll make sure my wheelchair is hotted up though).
I joke about death all the time. It's my way of coping and black humour can be a release for plenty of people (including myself). I worked in the emergency dept of the Children's Hospital for six months when I was in my first year at Uni. If you heard the jokes some of the drs and nurses cracked, you'd object quite strongly I feel. However, it was a release to help them cope with the needless deaths of people so young, and also to cope with 12-18 hour shifts full of death.
Thanks but you don't know me, or the people you are judging. Tread carefully whilst doing that.
Humor as a way to cope with stress is one thing. But joking about death (especially when it involves others) would be in poor taste. There's a difference, and I am sorry you can't see it.
No @betaboy , there's really not a difference.
xxx you guys . . .
Now @lobster I got no gif just your xxx. As much as I adore you, ain't no xxx action going on between me and you. You might pinch me in the wrong place......... XD
Yes, I got XXX from Lobster, too. Made me kinda nervous.
Yeah kinda kinky LOL
My apologies @ThailandTom for hijacking your thread, the crustacean made me do it :P
its a pic of a little cute guy hugging the air saying I'll pretend to hug you until you get there... its a very Lobster-ish post
nono don't worry, I am one of the people that doesn't really consider it thread-jacking, it is just the natural flow of conversation, IRL people move form subject to subject in conversation, so why not on the internet? I wish you all the best and admire your attitude by the way :thumbsup:
hug me when you are enlightened
Now you made me puke.
So id say yes. Ajahn brahm also tells a story about doing a funeral and starting to talk about the grandmother who died but it was the grandfather who died and the woman was right there. He tells that story laughing and i think its hilarious.
Then there is another funeral story he tells about how the husband loved kayaking and they made a wooden one for the body to be in as it went into the incinerator or some such ajd he laughingly describes a scene of the kayak getting stuck and the wife and family trying to push it in.
Someone in this thread before made a comment to the extent that of youve experienced death or your own mortality via almost dieing, that you take it more serious.
I agree and disagree, the more you understand death, the less you fear it, and lack of fear allows you to laugh at these kinds of stories. Taking it seriously doesnt have to mean being offended about it but rather truely understanding it leads to greater appreciation of life and not having time to be offended.
I agree and disagree, the more you understand death, the less you fear it, and lack of fear allows you to laugh at these kinds of stories. Taking it seriously doesnt have to mean being offended about it but rather truely understanding it leads to greater appreciation of life and not having time to be offended.
Yes - they are stories where the subject of death and jokes co-exist however they do not address the matter of offending others by your deliberate actions.
Not sure I'm with you on 'more' understanding and/or 'less' fear - are they not all or nothing thresholds? Either there is understanding/fear or not, how can there be more or less?
When someone takes offence they are reacting to both you and themselves - the answer here that it is due to their fear / isolation / ignorance and that on your part there is some superior knowledge is, in my opinion, the error.