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Karma and Perception.
Citta
Veteran
in Philosophy
We perceive the world in a particular way and then react according to that perception. That is what is meant by karma.
Nagkpa Chogyam.
4
Comments
That quote would probably benefit from some more context. Presumably he's not excluding the role of karma in the other four skandhas, but that's how I read it at first.
He is a Dzogchen teacher @fivebells. The skandhas/kandhas model does not really feature. Not excluded, but not featured.
A situation which mirrors that found in Soto Zen I believe.
I'm just saying presumably he means it's an example of what's meant by karma, rather than an a comprehensive account of what it means, because it doesn't cover the full meaning of the word even in a dzogchen context.
I think its pretty much the standard teaching from some Dzogchen teachers.
He is of a school which emphasises the lack of need for a Three Lifetimes model.
Subjective perception is being contrasted to Dzogchen's Original Mind.
It is clear in context that he considers that karma and vipaka have no existence beyond that of a convenient fiction. That they function as an upaya.
I thought it was decent, concise explanation.
Just sayin'
I'm a believer in Nagarjuna's two truths doctrine. So while the OP quote may be true from an ultimate perspective that doesn't negate the functioning of karma. So I think it is a step too far to say that karma and vipaka have no existence beyond a convenient fiction.
One man's maya is another man's ' convenient fiction..'
Fair enough, I'm not that fluent with Dzogchen language so as an outsider the wording maybe sounds more dismissive to me than it actually is.
Not dismissive...this becomes clear in context.
" All our visions are like dreams. and visions includes everything we see, smell, touch,and taste, it all arises in a dream ".
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Dream Yoga and the Way Of Light.
I think it would be nice if the people who adhere to certain traditions/lineages post a brief summary of the tacit points of that tradition or lineage that set it apart from in a thread dedicated to it. For instance, I am happy to briefly summarise Dzogchen and Zazen, and let the discussion define it further. I tried to do something similar with this post on mahayana buddhism. However, I know there are some people here with a greater knowledge and understanding of these than I do.
It would then be useful when someone makes a reference to a lineage/tradition/style of buddhism to reference that thread for further information on it and its nuances. @Citta seems well placed to write about Dzogchen; @Chaz about his Kagyu lineage, I know a few practice Soto Zen like @How I think etc. @Jayantha is entering a monastery soon (what tradition are you being ordained into? lol!) @lobster is making it up as he goes along, and I am sure his yum yum view will be accepted by someone, even if it is a stuffed cushion hiding away for fear for his life. What do you think @lincoln, any chance of making a subheading such as types of buddhism?
Just a thought
Metta
A problem @anataman...When taking Dzogchen Refuge we take a vow not to talk about it in any detail..that vow and a declaration of fealty to the teacher, takes the place of the Precepts.
Its not some kind of Masonic Silence..its just that without the necessary empowerments anything said is almost certain to be misleading.
No no no no no.... I see this all the time, everywhere. Even on American TV programmes, it's widely used.
"What goes around comes around."
:rolleyes:
Honest.
@anataman
Good luck in giving chaos that make over. Each standard that you define will be the discovery of endless exceptions.
He is defining reaction itself as karma, which I believe is ... well, better to say reaction creates karma or something of the sort.
Yes I get that @Citta, and my study of Dzogchen comes mainly from books, and listening to Dzogchen teachers, but other people don't, and thats why it can seem a little mysterious and/or secretive, which is why I said to elaborate on the tacit points.
Your one comment itself reveals the View of Dzogchen for what it is, the great perfection, the direct transmission of the original teachings from teacher to student, of the primordial nature of mind. That was what I was getting at, not an in-depth study of the practice, but what as a practitioner sets it apart from other traditions of buddhism.
Our own personal karma conditions and limits the way we perceive the world and how we react to it. We can only understand, therefore perceive, therefore react, within the limitations of what our personal arrangement of skandhas at a given moment allows us to perceive.
Sorry to mix literature with Dzogchen, but it reminds me of what writer Anaïs Nin said: "We perceive the world as we are, not as it is."
I find that phrase brilliant. Is it yours or someone else's?
I suppose not to react should be karma too.
exactly. Even 'non-Action' is Action.....