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Form in Five aggregates

we (forgive me if you should not be included within we) all take it for granted that we know what is meant by 'form' in Buddha's Teaching

could you explain what do you take as 'form'

before answer, take few moments to think over it, please

Comments

  • The physical material, make-up, and appearance of objects and things...from my understanding.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    It is the aspects of 'the world' that are considered material.

    So my computer and my mouse and my body have form. The sky and a clock has form. The sound waves of music are form nature of sound. My mind that hears and interprets/labels the music is not form.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    Nothing to think about.

    http://buddhism.about.com/od/whatistheself/a/Sunyata-Or-Emptiness.htm

    . . . or to put it another way, an answer without a question.

    Chaz
  • Form is that which is nourished by food, feels heat/cold/itch/pain ie. the physical body.

    At Savatthi. "Monks, any brahmans or contemplatives who recollect their manifold past lives all recollect the five clinging-aggregates, or one among them. Which five? When recollecting, 'I was one with such a form in the past,' one is recollecting just form.

    "And why do you call it 'form' (rupa)? Because it is afflicted (ruppati), thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.079.than.html

    CittapommesetorangesJeffreyupekka
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran

    I believe that form (ruupa) is not quite like "matter" in the Western scientific way, as much as it's referring to anything having some kind of materiality which is also able to be perceived. In that sense, I believe, even intangible or even abstract things such as some generic "fruit" or such things as human rights and laws would be included.

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Kia Ora,

    Anything that 'matters'

    Metta Shoshin :)

    howlobster
  • xabirxabir Veteran

    "In the Pali literature, the mahabhuta ("great elements") or catudhatu ("four elements") are earth, water, fire and air. In early Buddhism, the four elements are a basis for understanding suffering and for liberating oneself from suffering. The earliest Buddhist texts explain that the four primary material elements are the sensory qualities solidity, fluidity, temperature, and mobility; their characterization as earth, water, fire, and air, respectively, is declared an abstraction—instead of concentrating on the fact of material existence, one observes how a physical thing is sensed, felt, perceived.[8] The Buddha's teaching regarding the four elements is to be understood as the base of all observation of real sensations rather than as a philosophy. The four properties are cohesion (water), solidity or inertia (earth), expansion or vibration (air) and heat or energy content (fire). He promulgated a categorization of mind and matter as composed of eight types of "kalapas" of which the four elements are primary and a secondary group of four are color, smell, taste, and nutriment which are derivative from the four primaries." (Wiki)

    "You just supposed to rest in the experience of whatever element you are encountering, not get involved in "is it limpid, wet, etc." Anyway, when you look at your floor, it is not so hard to understand it is an manifestation of earth. Anyway, don't overthink things." (Loppon Malcolm)

    "first empty it...there is no object...then the intensity of luminosity as the hardness, softness, wetness..." (Thusness)

    lobsterJeffreyEarthninja
  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @Shoshin said:
    Anything that 'matters'

    :buck: seems about right to me. It is the stuff (a technical term) both mental and physical that we form around. My body, my problems, my experience, my world, my tea cup.

    As we loosen the grip of form, in essence see it as empty, our suffering around what matters, becomes loosened.


    N.B. Don't stay for the musical finale, not sure what it is . . .

    Shoshin
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @lobster said:
    N.B. Don't stay for the musical finale, not sure what it is . . .

    Kia Ora,

    Thanks for the youtube clip...

    As a 'matter' of fact I liked the chanting at the end --:D ::

    Metta Shoshin :)

  • CittaCitta Veteran

    @upekka said:
    we (forgive me if you should not be included within we) all take it for granted that we know what is meant by 'form' in Buddha's Teaching

    could you explain what do you take as 'form'

    before answer, take few moments to think over it, please

    It usually translates Rupam.

    Rupam is specific. Its Sanskrit/Pali meaning is ' that which occupies space ' Or that which resists occupation by another rupam '

    So, thoughts are not Rupam, Feelings are not Rupam..

    Your body is Rupam. Your PC is Rupam...

    Incidentally A Buddha image or statue is more properly called a Buddharupa...

    Rupam is one of the five Skandhas.

    I will leave you to google the others.

    Jeffrey
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I can think of a few people whose thoughts - or lines of thinking - are definitely "Rupam".. Fixated, springs to mind...

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited May 2014

    Their thoughts might be like Rupam @federica, but they are still Samjna (Sanskrit ) or Sanna ..( Pali )

  • CittaCitta Veteran

    I have corrected the bolding three times...it won't have it.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2014

    There must be no spaces between the bolded words and their asterisks, but a clear space between the asterisks.and words or punctuation preceding or following them...

    I learnt the hard way....I was taught By @Linc ... ~shudder~

    Earthninja
  • CittaCitta Veteran

    I thoughts that's what I did..I'll try again..

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @upekka said:
    could you explain what do you take as 'form'

    Traditionally it's represented by the four great elements - earth, wind, fire and water.

    I think "materiality" is a reasonable translation of rupa.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2014

    @Citta said:
    I thoughts that's what I did..I'll try again..

    >

    You left a space after a word, but before the two final asterisks, samjna in one case, and when you typed "..(Pali)" you left no space between the asterisks and the '..'
    .

  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    Kia Ora,
    I could be wrong but I was under the impression (I'm feeling a bit under the impression at the moment) ...--:D __

    Physical or mental...when things take shape they 'form' hence "Anything that matters "

    !) That which occupies space....2) A subject or situation under consideration.

    Metta Shoshin:)

  • CittaCitta Veteran

    I suggest that you look at Rupam in the context of the Skandhas..

    Your "anything that matters " may have resonance for you. But I do not see anything resembling it in the Buddhas teaching

  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited May 2014

    thanks friends for contribution

    i learned a lot from them

    according to Buddha's Teaching sound, taste, smell, tactile are form (rupa) too

    rupa-rupa

    saddha-rupa

    gandha-rupa

    rasa-rupa

    spassa-rupa

    what do you think about them?

    how do you explain them as form?

  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    Form cannot be described without the contrast of emptiness, nothing, or whatever you want to call the thing that is no thing.

    In the non-dual state, where the mind rests free of any particular thought, they are observed as one and the same, at least in my field of awareness, feel free to challenge that, as I may be completely wrong.

    Regardless of which skandha is examined, there must be a contrast otherwise how can discrimination occur. You can't contrast black with black or ding with ding, you need white and dong, right or wrong? (... \ lol / ...).

    Earthninja
  • wangchueywangchuey Veteran
    edited May 2014

    @upekka said:
    thanks friends for contribution

    i learned a lot from them

    according to Buddha's Teaching sound, taste, smell, tactile are form (rupa) too

    rupa-rupa

    saddha-rupa

    gandha-rupa

    rasa-rupa

    spassa-rupa

    what do you think about them?

    how do you explain them as form?

    Interesting. Perhaps there are two types of form? Physical form and mental form? Or maybe rupa is similar to the word "thing" that we often use today. Just guessing.

  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @upekka said:
    according to Buddha's Teaching sound, taste, smell, tactile are form (rupa) too

    I'd be interested in the source for that. MN137 describes the 6 external sense-media, which could be said to arise in dependence on form.

    "'The six external sense-media should be known': thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile-sensation-medium, the idea-medium. 'The six external sense-media should be known': "

  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    @SpinyNorman said:
    "'The six external sense-media should be known': thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile-sensation-medium, the idea-medium. 'The six external sense-media should be known': "

    Diga nikaya- maha satipattana sutta - dhammanupassanawa - satta pabba -dukka samudaya arya satya

    In the upadanakkhandhas, visible objects... In the upadanakkhandhas, sounds... In the upadanakkhandhas, odors... In the upadanakkhandhas, tastes... In the upadanakkhandhas, tactual objects... In the upadanakkhandhas, mind-objects have the characteristic of being delightful and pleasurable. When this Craving arises, it arises there; when it establishes itself, it establishes itself there

  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    An attitude has the characteristics of ruupam, in that an attitude resists occupying the same 'space' as an attitude with a perceived contradictory nature.

    'Form' as that which can be perceived by the six senses is a helpful way to describe form, especially for this westerner who was brought up only giving credit to five senses :) That sixth sense (not the movie, thank you) sure was hard for me to ignore.

    Whatever can be 'established' has form. Whatever arises from conditions has a form.

    There is some deep wisdom about duality in modern quantum physics that would explain why attitudes of a contradictory nature cannot occupy the same space and remain with intact form.

  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited May 2014

    "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'

    Pañcavaggi Sutta: Five Brethren/Aggregates
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.than.html

    Form = rupam. In this context it clearly refers to the physical body.

    Rūpaṃ bhikkhave, anattā, rūpañca hidaṃ bhikkhave, attā abhavissa nayidaṃ rūpaṃ ābādhāya saṃvatteyya, labbhetha ca rūpe evaṃ me rūpaṃ hotu, evaṃ me rūpaṃ mā ahosī'ti. Yasmā ca kho bhikkhave, rūpaṃ anattā, tasmā rūpaṃ ābādhāya saṃvattati. Na ca labbhati rūpe "evaṃ me rūpaṃ hotu, evaṃ me rūpaṃ mā ahosī"ti.

    Cittaupekka
  • ToraldrisToraldris   -`-,-{@     Zen Nud... Buddhist     @}-,-`-   East Coast, USA Veteran

    I'd say form means anything that isn't mental. That's why the Buddha said there are only two things, mind and form. Easy enough? Maybe. People are attached to form, but can also become attached to the formless; attachment to both must be transcended.

    upekka
  • CittaCitta Veteran

    Something that might be useful;

    " Its important to remember that that the kandhas ( skandhas ) are not separate little domains..they are active and interactive. They define each other. They are dynamic.
    We talk about them as separate for convenience, In reality they are an organic whole that comes together for a time then ends..."

    Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

    upekka
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited August 2014

    after the past few days (may be weeks or months) of meditation i came to (have the) following understanding today, early in the morning:

    in the four foundation of mindfulness

    I. THE CONTEMPLATION OF THE BODY
    the subtle body is the breath and if there is mindfulness of the body that means mindful of the form aggregate

    II. THE CONTEMPLATION OF FEELING
    to get a feeling it is necessary to have an internal form (ear etc.) , an external form (sound etc.) and a consciousness with previous skillful volition, unskillful volition or neither-skillful-nor-unskillful volition

    if there is previous skillful volition there is pleasure, if there is previous unskillful volition there is displeasure and if there is previous neither-nor-skillful/unskillful volition there is neither-pleasure-nor-displeasure

    this means mindful of the feeling aggregate

    III. THE CONTEMPLATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS
    observing the mind it can be seen there could be greed, hate, delusion or loving-kindness, compassion, wisdom

    when the consciousness arise during the contact (internal sense base and external sense base),

    if there is greed or hate or delusion then clinging to form and feeling happens and create new volitional activities (through mind, word or body)

    but if there is only loving-kindness or compassion or wisdom there is no clinging so no new volitional activities

    this means mindful of the consciousness aggregate

    IV. THE CONTEMPLATION OF MENTAL OBJECTS
    only unskillful objects( five-nievaranas, dukka, dependent origination) and skillful activities (eight-fold path, seven factors of enlightenment) are there

    this means mindful of the volitional activity aggregate

    when one comes to Noble Right View/ Stream Entry/ Stream winner/ sotapanna/ sovan one clearly knows perception is empty

    practicing Four Foundation of Mindfulness means practicing to be mindful of five aggregates where one can avoid clinging to five aggregate which is the cause of suffering (dependent origination)

    comments appreciate

    (here talking about Buddha' Teaching, not theravada, mahayana, tantrayana etc.)

    Jeffrey
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited August 2014

    @upekka‌

    Just to comment on feelings contemplation in terms of the 4NT.
    How are feelings to be viewed?

    Feelings(pleasant, painful and neutral) are to be viewed as just feelings that arise due to causes and conditions. Feelings remain as just feelings, as not I, mine or myself.

    Quote:

    "A pleasant feeling is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing.

    "Seeing this, an instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with pleasant feeling, disenchanted with painful feeling, disenchanted with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. From dispassion, he is released. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns, 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' A monk whose mind is thus released does not take sides with anyone, does not dispute with anyone. He words things by means of what is said in the world but without grasping at it."

    Dighanaka Sutta

    ‘This is the way it is. You detach. You let go. Whenever there is any feeling of clinging, we detach from it, because we know that that very feeling is just as it is. It didn’t come along especially to annoy us. We might think that it did, but in truth it just is that way. If we start to think and consider it further, that, too, is just as it is. If we let go, then form is merely form, sound is merely sound, odour is merely odour, taste is merely taste, touch is merely touch and the heart is merely the heart. It’s similar to oil and water. If you put the two together in a bottle, they won’t mix because of the difference of their nature.

    ‘Oil and water are different in the same way that a wise person and an ignorant person are different. The Buddha lived with form, sound, odour, taste, touch and thought. He was an arahant (Enlightened One), so he turned away from rather than toward these things. He turned away and detached little by little since he understood that the heart is just the heart and thought is just thought. He didn’t confuse and mix them together.

    ‘The heart is just the heart; thoughts and feelings are just thoughts and feelings. Let things be just as they are! Let form be just form, let sound be just sound, let thought be just thought. Why should we bother to attach to them? If we think and feel in this way, then there is detachment and separateness. Our thoughts and feelings will be on one side and our heart will be on the other. Just like oil and water – they are in the same bottle but they are separate.’

    ~ Ajahn Chah, The Training of the Heart in Food for the Heart, pp 157–8 (adapted)

    With metta

    upekkaBuddhadragonanataman
  • thanks @pegembara,

    i really like the following part

    @pegembara said:

    He turned away and detached little by little since he understood that the heart is just the heart and thought is just thought.

    Buddhadragon
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