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@Jeffrey said:
No they have a different interpretation of shunyata. Rangtong and Shentong.
I've studied both lineage teachings and I see no difference in teaching on shunyata.
Both lineages teach Rangtong AND Shentong. I don't see either school as being exclusively one way or the other.
Maybe I'm missing something, but seeing as you brought Rangtong Shentong up in a different thread and turned down a suggestion to start a new thread, I'm going to ask the same thing: seeing as you appear to be insistent on bringing up rangtong and shengton and now you're adding it to a discussion of differences between two seperate lineages, I thing you SHOULD start a thread on the matter. I think you should begin by offering your definition of rangtong and shentong and then offer how that applies to differences - this "thing" you mentioned earlier - and let's discuss it.
Someone linked an article and I didn't want to read it if it was Rangtong view so that I don't get confused. My teacher specifically said that they draw definitions differently all down the line.
Hello
Well, the whole thing is discussed pretty thoroughly in Buddha Within. I cant remember whether you have studied this or not. I am giving lectures on the book at the Hermitage each week to try to draw out more of the issues. It is an important debate - it reflects on our whole approach to the path - what makes it so complicated is that each system defines all the Buddhist terms in a way that supports its own interpretation of the Buddhist experience. So you are best advised to learn one system or the other to start with and when you have got the hang of one - you can spot what is going on with the other. Otherwise you end up having one circular argument after another trying to understand one system and its arguments with the other when each system is using the terms differently all the way down the line - although still claiming to be using the same scriptural sources. Its fascinating!
Good luck and my sympathies
Much love
You say that they teach both. That's true and false. My teachers teacher has in his career taught on Rangtong viewpoints such as the two truths. That teaching is appropriate for a lot of people and Khenpo Rinpoche teaches it to reach those people. Personally I don't study either. I study emptiness of skhandas which is the shravaka view and predated Nagarjuna. I find that easier to understand (for me) than prasangika (Rangtong) or Shentong. Indeed I have no idea about Shentong other than the fact that my teachers view, being a teacher of Shentong specifically, is 'interwoven' and based on her own understanding. I haven't read the scholarly material and sutras. I tried to read her book and I did not understand it because I don't have the background. If you are interested in the sutras that the shentong view draws from I recommend Ratnagotravibhāga and Shrimaladevi sutras. I practice Shravaka view so I don't read those.
On the side of it being false there exists a Rime movement to reconcile differences in Rangtong and shentong. The Rime movement though is not universal and many teachers do not subscribe to the Rime movement. My teachers teacher teaches all levels of emptiness, but he believes that the Shentong view is the most powerful and true to the nature of mind. My guru wrote a book called the Buddha Within which is full of polymics (counter arguments) to dissect the differences between the two. Granted that, I could be mistaken, but I don't think she is part of the Rime movement.
For these reasons it is true that teachers do teach multiple method, but false that they don't believe one view is most sublime.
I personally don't want to debate Rangtong versus Shetong for the reason that I practice the Shravaka level of emptiness. I am studying to become a 'hearer' which means that I want basic morality along with intellectual understanding of emptiness which for me that is gonna be the shravaka view unless anything changes.
Khenpo Rinpoche if I recall did say in his book that you can attain enlightenment (or perhaps just make oodles of progress) with any view including the shravka view.
If you want a good book to study all the variations of emphasis I recommend 'Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness' by Khenpo Gyamptso Tsultrim Rinpoche. It talks about the Shravaka, Cittamatra (often confused with Shentong, but predates Nagarjuna), Sautantrika, Prasangika, and Shentong.
Again in this thread I was just commenting to @lobster that I didn't want to read the bergins archives because I didn't want to be confused.
The 'thing' between them is based on when my teacher travelled to New York the guy who I got in contact with to find out where I could meet her said that there was some challenge because she was going to go to a Gelug sangha and talk. You see, there is some difficulty giving a talk to people who are of a different view. Again:
Otherwise you end up having one circular argument after another trying to understand one system and its arguments with the other when each system is using the terms differently all the way down the line - although still claiming to be using the same scriptural sources. Its fascinating!
If you want to learn about Rangtong and Shentong views you could start a thread and I could contribute if it wasn't too big an argument. Unfortunately I haven't studied other than hearing the teachings 'woven into' my teachers class that I took. Nonetheless I will chose not to read the Bergin Archive because I feel it would be additionally confusing and, as my teacher said, I don't want to go in circular arguments.
The Rimé movement was a movement involving the Sakya, Kagyu and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism, along with some Bön scholars.[1]
Having seen how the Gelug institutions pushed the other traditions into the corners of Tibet's cultural life, Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and Jamgön Kongtrül Lodrö Thayé compiled together the teachings of the Sakya, Kagyu and Nyingma, including many near-extinct teachings.[2] Without Khyentse and Kongtrul's collecting and printing of rare works, the suppression of Buddhism by the Communists would have been much more final.[3] The Rimé movement is responsible for a number of scriptural compilations, such as the Rinchen Terdzod and the Sheja Dzö.
snip
Rimé was initially intended to counteract the novel growing suspicion and tension building between the different traditions, which at the time had, in many places, gone so far as to forbid studying one another's scriptures. Tibetan Buddhism has a long history of vigorous debate and argumentation between schools and within one's training. This can lead a practitioner to believe that one's school has the best approach or highest philosophic view and that other lineages have a lower or flawed understanding. The Rimé approach cautions against developing that viewpoint, while at the same time appreciating that the debate and discussion is important and that arguing which views are higher and lower is still valid discourse.
The movement began within a large context of increasing domination by the Gelug lineage. Beginning in the 17th century, the Gelug view and politics increasingly dominated in Tibet and the minority lineages were at risk for losing their traditions.[14] At its founding, the Rimé movement was primarily non-Gelugpa teachers and at times the movement has appeared critical of Gelug views. Professor Georges Dreyfus suggests this argumentation was less to create further division but was to bolster minority views that had been marginalized by Gelug supremacy. Nonetheless, philosophic commentaries by early Rimé writers tend to criticize Gelugpa tenets.**
snip
The movement's achievements have been successful in the 20th century where taking teachings and transmissions from different schools and lineages has become the norm amongst many monastic students, lamas, yogis as well as lay practitioners. This has mainly been due to the proactive support of many lineage holders and various leaders such as the 13th and 14th Dalai Lamas, the 15th and 16th Karmapas, Sakya Trizin, Dudjom Rinpoche, following the "eclectic" approach of the 5th Dalai Lama "who blurred the lines between traditions":[5]
In the West, where so many different Buddhist traditions exist side by side, one needs to be constantly on one's guard against the danger of sectarianism. Such a divisive attitude is often the result of failing to understand or appreciate anything outside one's own tradition. Teachers from all schools would therefore benefit greatly from studying and gaining some practical experience of the teachings of other traditions.[19]
I posit that if there is a Rime movement then there obviously must be those who disagree and just believe they need to keep the purity of their own teachings because they believe that mixing traditions would not be advisable. Or they might simply want to advocate their own teachings which they feel are better.
A strawman to illustrate a point would be if you agreed that the flat earth society was not a good view and you said that your view of a globe is the best view and should be protected and promoted.
Again in this thread I was just commenting to @lobster that I didn't want to read the bergins archives because I didn't want to be confused
The clarity of your thinking, dedication to your teacher is fine. Ask what she recommends or reading her recommends is working out for you. No worries, sometimes other people need general introductions without the detailed nuances . . .
Hello, everyone! I'm back from the Long Life initiation (Könchog Chidü) and teaching with his Eminence, the 7th Dzogchen Rinpoche.
It was a very moving ceremony. I got up at 4 am in order to be able to be at the other end of Switzerland by 8:30 am.
Look @Jeffrey, I don't know much about differences and I don't quite care. My teacher is Gelug but I might be joining this Dzogchen group. I don't marry with lineages, I just welcome every path that leads to Dharma, and keep my head open as to schools.
For the time being, after two teachings with his Eminence, my first impression is (and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) is Dzogchen makes things more simple.
I mean, his Eminence has explained certain ideas in very simple language and I could actually see what he meant. I feel like I have to empty myself of many ideas that I took for granted. I have not delved any deeper yet in Dzogchen but @Jeffrey mentioned this zen anecdote and I feel Dzogchen is similar to Zen in some aspects. I'm probably lacking in sleep and rambling?
But only to those with experience in the Higher Yoga Tantras.
In contrast to some other teachers who will teach without requiring preliminaries. Such as Chnn for example who numbers Catholic monks and nuns, and at least one Sufi teacher, among his students.
The teachings are the same ..the difference is in process..Not outcomes.
@dharmamom I am in no way against the Gelug. The reason I even mentioned it was to explain that I didn't want to get confused by studying my teachers view and the Gelug view.
For me it has nothing to do with schools being right or wrong. It only has to do with my not going in circles and being confused. I respect Gelug students even if our organizations have differences.
@Jeffrey, hope you didn't take my comment the wrong way.
Just wanted to mention that I like to navigate freely between different schools and I now can see why one is always advised against it: different schools, different views. It can get rather confusing.
Are you doing the online course, by the way? Do you recommend it?
Hi @dharmamom, no worries in fact I was just worried you thought I criticized your practice so I tried to clarify that what I said in previous post was not against Gelug.
I really enjoyed, and I feel benefited, from the Discovering the Heart of Buddhism (DHB) with Lama Shenpen Hookham. She is her own teacher with her own pointing out instructions, but she has some things in common with Trungpa (in teachings not behaviour), Pema Chodron, and her husband Rigdzin Shikpo, who is Nyingma and head of the longchenpa foundation involving dzogchen.
Her course is accessible to the beginner, but you can continue studying the course on and on, because it is a spiral learning that reveals deeper and deeper in my meditation and my viewpoint. I am now taking a course Trusting the Heart of Buddhism (THB) and there are other mini courses such as on specific dharma books or topics. The most recent mini group course was on the 5 precepts which is interesting because we are always hearing implied (exagerating for rhetoric) how tantric practitioners just willy nilly abandoning the 5 precepts.
So I can recommend the DHB course and it is worth the money though it is an expense. I'd much rather have taken her course than upgrade my computer, pay for a smartphone monthly cost, or update my wardrobe.
I am not sure how to interpret ' she is her own teacher ' @Jeffrey..her teacher is the famous Yogi Khenpo Tsultrim...and Shikpo was empowered to teach by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who was also Shenpen's first teacher.
Incidentally my wife went on retreat in Nepal which involved a three day trek up to a cave which is associated with the great Guru of the Kali Yuga, Padmasambhava..
When they reached the cave they discovered Khenpo Tsultrim, just by happenstance, who sang them the songs of Milarepa..
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I'm sorry, I had visions of a 'cavern' like nightclub there, with him sitting on a stool, in a smoky atmosphere, clutching an old acoustic guitar, a la 'Jake Thackeray'...
From what she told me @federica it wasn't that far off..but no guitar, and the smoke was Tibetan incense.
Khenpo Tsultrim is a very jolly old cove..lots of laughter.
At one point he danced a ritual dance for them..
Which reminds me of another story..I'm ramblin'.
I was at the Buddhist Society's celebration of Wesak. The Buddhist Society in those days was ultra-stuffy.
Lots of scholars and lots of eccentric older people.
Chogyam Trungpa ( still a monk then, in his 20's ) had been invited to contribute..
What he did before the surprised faces of the scholars and blue rinses was a beautiful traditional dance. He danced completely unselfconsciously, with great grace.
@Citta said:
I am not sure how to interpret ' she is her own teacher ' Jeffrey..her teacher is the famous Yogi Khenpo Tsultrim...and Shikpo was empowered to teach by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who was also Shenpen's first teacher.
Incidentally my wife went on retreat in Nepal which involved a three day trek up to a cave which is associated with the great Guru of the Kali Yuga, Padmasambhava..
When they reached the cave they discovered Khenpo Tsultrim, just by happenstance, who sang them the songs of Milarepa..
@Citta
It's probably a misunderstanding due to my grammar. I meant that she has her own personality in her teachings. She did receive teachings but she teaches in her own 'flavor' and is not a walking carbon copy of Khenpo Rinpoche.
Comments
I've studied both lineage teachings and I see no difference in teaching on shunyata.
Both lineages teach Rangtong AND Shentong. I don't see either school as being exclusively one way or the other.
Maybe I'm missing something, but seeing as you brought Rangtong Shentong up in a different thread and turned down a suggestion to start a new thread, I'm going to ask the same thing: seeing as you appear to be insistent on bringing up rangtong and shengton and now you're adding it to a discussion of differences between two seperate lineages, I thing you SHOULD start a thread on the matter. I think you should begin by offering your definition of rangtong and shentong and then offer how that applies to differences - this "thing" you mentioned earlier - and let's discuss it.
Have at it.
Someone linked an article and I didn't want to read it if it was Rangtong view so that I don't get confused. My teacher specifically said that they draw definitions differently all down the line.
You say that they teach both. That's true and false. My teachers teacher has in his career taught on Rangtong viewpoints such as the two truths. That teaching is appropriate for a lot of people and Khenpo Rinpoche teaches it to reach those people. Personally I don't study either. I study emptiness of skhandas which is the shravaka view and predated Nagarjuna. I find that easier to understand (for me) than prasangika (Rangtong) or Shentong. Indeed I have no idea about Shentong other than the fact that my teachers view, being a teacher of Shentong specifically, is 'interwoven' and based on her own understanding. I haven't read the scholarly material and sutras. I tried to read her book and I did not understand it because I don't have the background. If you are interested in the sutras that the shentong view draws from I recommend Ratnagotravibhāga and Shrimaladevi sutras. I practice Shravaka view so I don't read those.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratnagotravibhāga_(text)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śrīmālādevī_sūtra
On the side of it being false there exists a Rime movement to reconcile differences in Rangtong and shentong. The Rime movement though is not universal and many teachers do not subscribe to the Rime movement. My teachers teacher teaches all levels of emptiness, but he believes that the Shentong view is the most powerful and true to the nature of mind. My guru wrote a book called the Buddha Within which is full of polymics (counter arguments) to dissect the differences between the two. Granted that, I could be mistaken, but I don't think she is part of the Rime movement.
For these reasons it is true that teachers do teach multiple method, but false that they don't believe one view is most sublime.
I personally don't want to debate Rangtong versus Shetong for the reason that I practice the Shravaka level of emptiness. I am studying to become a 'hearer' which means that I want basic morality along with intellectual understanding of emptiness which for me that is gonna be the shravaka view unless anything changes.
Khenpo Rinpoche if I recall did say in his book that you can attain enlightenment (or perhaps just make oodles of progress) with any view including the shravka view.
If you want a good book to study all the variations of emphasis I recommend 'Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness' by Khenpo Gyamptso Tsultrim Rinpoche. It talks about the Shravaka, Cittamatra (often confused with Shentong, but predates Nagarjuna), Sautantrika, Prasangika, and Shentong.
Again in this thread I was just commenting to @lobster that I didn't want to read the bergins archives because I didn't want to be confused.
The 'thing' between them is based on when my teacher travelled to New York the guy who I got in contact with to find out where I could meet her said that there was some challenge because she was going to go to a Gelug sangha and talk. You see, there is some difficulty giving a talk to people who are of a different view. Again:
If you want to learn about Rangtong and Shentong views you could start a thread and I could contribute if it wasn't too big an argument. Unfortunately I haven't studied other than hearing the teachings 'woven into' my teachers class that I took. Nonetheless I will chose not to read the Bergin Archive because I feel it would be additionally confusing and, as my teacher said, I don't want to go in circular arguments.
Here's more about the Rime movment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimé_movement
snip
snip
snip
In the West, where so many different Buddhist traditions exist side by side, one needs to be constantly on one's guard against the danger of sectarianism. Such a divisive attitude is often the result of failing to understand or appreciate anything outside one's own tradition. Teachers from all schools would therefore benefit greatly from studying and gaining some practical experience of the teachings of other traditions.[19]
I posit that if there is a Rime movement then there obviously must be those who disagree and just believe they need to keep the purity of their own teachings because they believe that mixing traditions would not be advisable. Or they might simply want to advocate their own teachings which they feel are better.
A strawman to illustrate a point would be if you agreed that the flat earth society was not a good view and you said that your view of a globe is the best view and should be protected and promoted.
The clarity of your thinking, dedication to your teacher is fine. Ask what she recommends or reading her recommends is working out for you. No worries, sometimes other people need general introductions without the detailed nuances . . .
Hello, everyone! I'm back from the Long Life initiation (Könchog Chidü) and teaching with his Eminence, the 7th Dzogchen Rinpoche.
It was a very moving ceremony. I got up at 4 am in order to be able to be at the other end of Switzerland by 8:30 am.
Look @Jeffrey, I don't know much about differences and I don't quite care. My teacher is Gelug but I might be joining this Dzogchen group. I don't marry with lineages, I just welcome every path that leads to Dharma, and keep my head open as to schools.
For the time being, after two teachings with his Eminence, my first impression is (and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) is Dzogchen makes things more simple.
I mean, his Eminence has explained certain ideas in very simple language and I could actually see what he meant. I feel like I have to empty myself of many ideas that I took for granted. I have not delved any deeper yet in Dzogchen but @Jeffrey mentioned this zen anecdote and I feel Dzogchen is similar to Zen in some aspects. I'm probably lacking in sleep and rambling?
It is no secret that HHDL teaches Dzogchen.
But only to those with experience in the Higher Yoga Tantras.
In contrast to some other teachers who will teach without requiring preliminaries. Such as Chnn for example who numbers Catholic monks and nuns, and at least one Sufi teacher, among his students.
The teachings are the same ..the difference is in process..Not outcomes.
@dharmamom I am in no way against the Gelug. The reason I even mentioned it was to explain that I didn't want to get confused by studying my teachers view and the Gelug view.
For me it has nothing to do with schools being right or wrong. It only has to do with my not going in circles and being confused. I respect Gelug students even if our organizations have differences.
@Jeffrey, hope you didn't take my comment the wrong way.
Just wanted to mention that I like to navigate freely between different schools and I now can see why one is always advised against it: different schools, different views. It can get rather confusing.
Are you doing the online course, by the way? Do you recommend it?
Hi @dharmamom, no worries in fact I was just worried you thought I criticized your practice so I tried to clarify that what I said in previous post was not against Gelug.
I really enjoyed, and I feel benefited, from the Discovering the Heart of Buddhism (DHB) with Lama Shenpen Hookham. She is her own teacher with her own pointing out instructions, but she has some things in common with Trungpa (in teachings not behaviour), Pema Chodron, and her husband Rigdzin Shikpo, who is Nyingma and head of the longchenpa foundation involving dzogchen.
Her course is accessible to the beginner, but you can continue studying the course on and on, because it is a spiral learning that reveals deeper and deeper in my meditation and my viewpoint. I am now taking a course Trusting the Heart of Buddhism (THB) and there are other mini courses such as on specific dharma books or topics. The most recent mini group course was on the 5 precepts which is interesting because we are always hearing implied (exagerating for rhetoric) how tantric practitioners just willy nilly abandoning the 5 precepts.
So I can recommend the DHB course and it is worth the money though it is an expense. I'd much rather have taken her course than upgrade my computer, pay for a smartphone monthly cost, or update my wardrobe.
I am not sure how to interpret ' she is her own teacher ' @Jeffrey..her teacher is the famous Yogi Khenpo Tsultrim...and Shikpo was empowered to teach by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who was also Shenpen's first teacher.
Incidentally my wife went on retreat in Nepal which involved a three day trek up to a cave which is associated with the great Guru of the Kali Yuga, Padmasambhava..
When they reached the cave they discovered Khenpo Tsultrim, just by happenstance, who sang them the songs of Milarepa..
I'm sorry, I had visions of a 'cavern' like nightclub there, with him sitting on a stool, in a smoky atmosphere, clutching an old acoustic guitar, a la 'Jake Thackeray'...
"The next song I want to sing you...."
I'm sure it wasn't like that at all....
From what she told me @federica it wasn't that far off..but no guitar, and the smoke was Tibetan incense.
Khenpo Tsultrim is a very jolly old cove..lots of laughter.
At one point he danced a ritual dance for them..
Which reminds me of another story..I'm ramblin'.
I was at the Buddhist Society's celebration of Wesak. The Buddhist Society in those days was ultra-stuffy.
Lots of scholars and lots of eccentric older people.
Chogyam Trungpa ( still a monk then, in his 20's ) had been invited to contribute..
What he did before the surprised faces of the scholars and blue rinses was a beautiful traditional dance. He danced completely unselfconsciously, with great grace.
Saluted them and sat down.
Zorba the Buddha.
@Citta
It's probably a misunderstanding due to my grammar. I meant that she has her own personality in her teachings. She did receive teachings but she teaches in her own 'flavor' and is not a walking carbon copy of Khenpo Rinpoche.
_/_