Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Yes, especially when they accuse me of doing something I didn't do Why shouldn't I be allowed to respond to such accusations?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
let me repeat this once, and once only:
I would advise you, as Moderator, to quit this tit-for-tat arguing, and just accept that however 'right' you believe yourself to be, what happened, happened.
Others also have a Right to think and act as they see fit, and neither you nor anyone else has the right to condemn them outright. Here and/or elsewhere.
Hopefully I've made the position abundantly clear.
And this also requires no response.
On the rats> Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply it included wild rats. I just found it interesting, and I'm sure on some level wild rats are probably capable of more than we think they are, even if their lifestyle is problematic for us, lol.
I have to say, reading through the posts over the past few hours, kind of makes me chuckle when considering the title. Indeed, this neighborhood has gone and blown up
@karasti said:
I have to say, reading through the posts over the past few hours, kind of makes me chuckle when considering the title. Indeed, this neighborhood has gone and blown up
At least, this neighbourhood is not overrun by rats.
I mean, how would we settle for a solution?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Apparently Hamelin was last seen in a feast of carnivorous sewage rats...
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
He who pays the piper calls the tune..... And currently, my salary stinks!! .
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Ugh....Full Moon on a friday 13th.
I wondered what the hell was going on in this forum....
you have to go aaaaall the way back to June 13th, 1919 to find a Full Moon that fell on a Friday the 13th in the month of June. This will next occur on June 13th, 2098.
I think that pursuing a path that embraces the Precepts is a noble undertaking, but it's also one that borders on futility. To keep the Precepts, fully, is nigh unto impossible.
What needs to be practiced is a method that acknowledges and accomodates failure.
I like my example of a Black Widow Spider infestation of a home. There's really no way around the problem that doesn't include killing every spider in the house. So, as a Buddhist committed to a path of the Precepts, what do you do about. How do you reconcile a failure to live up to a lofty ideal with the fact that failure was absolutely unavoidable.
I saw a film about a group of native people in Northern Canada that shot a pregnant moose. They performs a short, simple ceremony that, in effect, apologized to the spirit of the moose for having to kill it and it's unborn calf in order to feed their families. You might call it attonement. They believe that there is, at some level, something wrong with taking life. They also understand that there is necessity in taking life. They reconcile the two.
In Mahayana we have karma purification practices such as the Vajrasattva sadhana.
Ultimately what we must do, is accept the fact that our karma sux sometimes. We should own what we do without trying to justify or condemn it and don't let it distract us from our practice because that is what will eventually lead us to perfect practice.
The things I do in any given fishing season would give any self respecting Buddhist nightmares.
I'm not too concerned about how others view my activities. I've seen little evidence that fishing, when carried out safely and respectfully, adversely affects people's karma. Fishermen grow old and wise and happy like anyone else.
People can find a way to live in the world that works for them. Sometimes things get killed.
I'm sorry seeker got banned. I believe in him. Just a misunderstanding.
We can all think of theoretical situations that justify preceptual breakages however 99.9% of the time this doesn't come up personally for me as an issue, except in conversation.
The precepts are simply the sign posts pointing the most direct way along the path towards suffering's cessation. If some folks wish to stop and deify those sign posts then I wish them well in their encampment but my job is to just keep moving along the path.
5
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited June 2014
Baden-Powell was the founder of the Boy scout movement.
As a person brought up in the strict moral codes of a Victorian society, by a Mother who moulded him to never fail, Baden-Powell transmitted such values to the boys he mentored and coached, through his disciplinarian yet character-building system.
The Motto of the Boy Scout Movement is 'Be prepared'.
"Be Prepared in Mind by having disciplined yourself to be obedient to every order, and also by having thought out beforehand any accident or situation that might occur, so that you know the right thing to do at the right moment, and are willing to do it.
>
Be Prepared in Body by making yourself strong and active and able to do the right thing at the right moment, and do it."
>
There is a further promise of what the members are expected to uphold:
The Cub Scout Promise:
>
I promise that I will do my best
To do my duty to God and to the Queen
To help other people
And to keep the Cub Scout Law.
>
The Cub Scout Law:
>
Cub Scouts always do their best
Think of others before themselves
And do a good turn every day.
>
Under scrutiny, this sounds very much the kind of thing a Buddhist would also promise.
It is to 'be prepared' and 'do your best'.
And there is no stringent command, no obligatory recommendation, other than to 'be obedient to every order' which, given that Baden-Powell based his code on the constructive principles he learnt in the army, would suggest that a good, sound sense of moral character is cultivated.
Maybe we should all consider the scout Movement's Motto, and compare it to the 5 precepts....
All we are required to be, is 'Prepared in Mind, and prepared in body'.
And to do our best.
1
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
I never would have considered living in (much less bought) a home with an aboriginal population of rats and mice until I did. I suspect there is a lot more left to your life than mine . . . stranger things have happened.
Maybe not in action, but in attitude, you seem to be making a common enough error; that we are made for the laws (precepts), when the laws (precepts) were made for us. The precepts are what we will NATURALLY 'be' and 'do' to the extent of our wisdom. It is easy to imagine and project, especially if you live in a country with a reliable infrastructure and modern sanitation. I'll bet the devout Buddhists who live in the slums outside of the Mumbai airport would laugh about this discussion (and then clean and cook the rats so their children have soup).
Killing a dozen or so rodents was excruciating, it was horrible, it was a rather dark week there until they were either dead or realized what was up and went to live in the feed shed (where their surviving generations still dwell alongside some ineffective rodent repellent).
I totally do admire your conviction, though. I share it, believe it or not. Your lack of experience is not your fault and it is not wrong. You just won't learn much if you believe you have it all figured out.
I truly hope you never have to make a decision where you have to choose basic sanitation over the lives of rats. I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
For some strange reason the system wouldn't let me start a fresh/new thread...( it kept saying category does not exist even though I had already clicked on a category "General Banter" ...) so I tacked this onto an old thread ...Which I guess is appropriate enough....the contents are similar....one could say the same thread.....So....
A Buddhist practice of "saving lives" can cause an ecological catastrophe in New Zealand, an environmental expert says.
Auckland Buddhists have been releasing live animals, including turtles in Western Springs, as part of an ancient ritual called "fang sheng" or mercy release.
But Dr Imogen Bassett, Auckland Council's biosecurity principal adviser, said the red-eared slider turtles are one of the world's 100 worst invasive species, and could wreak havoc on the ecosystems.
Buddhists the Herald spoke to said they have also been releasing eels and fish bought from restaurants and fish markets that are due to be slaughtered into rivers and the sea.
"While well intentioned, releasing captive animals into the wild is often not in the released animals' best interest and it can also harm our natural environment," Bassett said.
In this day and age things are different, change is happening (as always) and people are becoming more aware of ecological & environmental issues...
The above being a case in point... Good intentions.... Unwholesome results... ecology & environmentally wise...
It would seem that the first precept "Do no Harm" can be a bit of a sticky one at times.... Damning other species if you do and damned if you don't so to speak....
Have you ever saved/bought and or released 'live' captive animals (destined for the dinner table,) back into the wild ?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2019
Nope. Perhaps instead of being critical, the organisation could reach out to that Buddhist Community and reach an agreement about where, when and how a safe, ecologically-sound and commendable release could be managed?
ETA: I have always said, have I not, that even the most perfect, pure and well-intentioned Kamma will always somewhere, along the line, cause ot create a disadvantage elsewhere? It's the Balance of the Universe. If you pull, something else will push... Yin in Yang, Yang in Yin, that kind of thing.
University of Auckland senior medical lecturer Tony Fernando, a devout Buddhist, said there are other ways for Buddhists to earn their karma points.
"The freeing of animals is a noble tradition of compassion in action," Fernando said.
"But a more practical but definitely more difficult practice is to practice kindness in speech, thought and action consciously, on a daily basis, not just to animals, but also to family, colleagues, friends and strangers."
A while back a visiting Lama ( I think he is based in the US) came over to Auckland and through donations bought $10,000 NZ worth of sea creatures destined for the dinner table and along with a group of Buddhists from different schools and centres released them back into the wild... I guess the irony is many of these freed sea creatures will end up back in the fisherman's net and on the dinner table again...That's the swings & roundabouts of karma I guess ....
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
The key word in his comment, is 'Tradition'.
But -
..kindness in speech, thought and action consciously, on a daily basis, not just to animals, but also to family, colleagues, friends and strangers.
...Is daily, habitual practice and is a given.
As I said, constructive dialogue would help.
And while it's possible that those animals would go through the same experience again, some might not. But I agree, the tradition itself needs refining, and the Monks need 'educating'...
Comments
Even if they've asked you to quit?
That's a rhetorical question by the way, in case you had any doubts.
Yes, especially when they accuse me of doing something I didn't do
Why shouldn't I be allowed to respond to such accusations?
let me repeat this once, and once only:
I would advise you, as Moderator, to quit this tit-for-tat arguing, and just accept that however 'right' you believe yourself to be, what happened, happened.
Others also have a Right to think and act as they see fit, and neither you nor anyone else has the right to condemn them outright. Here and/or elsewhere.
Hopefully I've made the position abundantly clear.
And this also requires no response.
The insinuation that I have condemned anyone, is simply false.
On the rats> Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply it included wild rats. I just found it interesting, and I'm sure on some level wild rats are probably capable of more than we think they are, even if their lifestyle is problematic for us, lol.
I have to say, reading through the posts over the past few hours, kind of makes me chuckle when considering the title. Indeed, this neighborhood has gone and blown up
At least, this neighbourhood is not overrun by rats.
I mean, how would we settle for a solution?
Call Hamelin - 555 18.20.1.19
Apparently Hamelin was last seen in a feast of carnivorous sewage rats...
He who pays the piper calls the tune..... And currently, my salary stinks!!
.
Ugh....Full Moon on a friday 13th.
I wondered what the hell was going on in this forum....
>
Mercury is also retrograde
Until July 1st, lol.
Why did the term 'rectal thermometer' suddenly pop into my head....? :screwy: .
retrograde mercury in the rectal thermometer would NOT be good indeed!
Don't derail yourself, please. That comment belongs in the "I Pad or Paper" thread
To get back on topic (if you don't mind) ......
I think that pursuing a path that embraces the Precepts is a noble undertaking, but it's also one that borders on futility. To keep the Precepts, fully, is nigh unto impossible.
What needs to be practiced is a method that acknowledges and accomodates failure.
I like my example of a Black Widow Spider infestation of a home. There's really no way around the problem that doesn't include killing every spider in the house. So, as a Buddhist committed to a path of the Precepts, what do you do about. How do you reconcile a failure to live up to a lofty ideal with the fact that failure was absolutely unavoidable.
I saw a film about a group of native people in Northern Canada that shot a pregnant moose. They performs a short, simple ceremony that, in effect, apologized to the spirit of the moose for having to kill it and it's unborn calf in order to feed their families. You might call it attonement. They believe that there is, at some level, something wrong with taking life. They also understand that there is necessity in taking life. They reconcile the two.
In Mahayana we have karma purification practices such as the Vajrasattva sadhana.
Ultimately what we must do, is accept the fact that our karma sux sometimes. We should own what we do without trying to justify or condemn it and don't let it distract us from our practice because that is what will eventually lead us to perfect practice.
The things I do in any given fishing season would give any self respecting Buddhist nightmares.
I'm not too concerned about how others view my activities. I've seen little evidence that fishing, when carried out safely and respectfully, adversely affects people's karma. Fishermen grow old and wise and happy like anyone else.
People can find a way to live in the world that works for them. Sometimes things get killed.
I'm sorry seeker got banned. I believe in him. Just a misunderstanding.
@Chaz
We can all think of theoretical situations that justify preceptual breakages however 99.9% of the time this doesn't come up personally for me as an issue, except in conversation.
The precepts are simply the sign posts pointing the most direct way along the path towards suffering's cessation. If some folks wish to stop and deify those sign posts then I wish them well in their encampment but my job is to just keep moving along the path.
Baden-Powell was the founder of the Boy scout movement.
As a person brought up in the strict moral codes of a Victorian society, by a Mother who moulded him to never fail, Baden-Powell transmitted such values to the boys he mentored and coached, through his disciplinarian yet character-building system.
The Motto of the Boy Scout Movement is 'Be prepared'.
>
>
There is a further promise of what the members are expected to uphold:
>
To do my duty to God and to the Queen
To help other people
And to keep the Cub Scout Law.
>
>
Think of others before themselves
And do a good turn every day.
>
Under scrutiny, this sounds very much the kind of thing a Buddhist would also promise.
It is to 'be prepared' and 'do your best'.
And there is no stringent command, no obligatory recommendation, other than to 'be obedient to every order' which, given that Baden-Powell based his code on the constructive principles he learnt in the army, would suggest that a good, sound sense of moral character is cultivated.
Maybe we should all consider the scout Movement's Motto, and compare it to the 5 precepts....
All we are required to be, is 'Prepared in Mind, and prepared in body'.
And to do our best.
I never would have considered living in (much less bought) a home with an aboriginal population of rats and mice until I did. I suspect there is a lot more left to your life than mine . . . stranger things have happened.
Maybe not in action, but in attitude, you seem to be making a common enough error; that we are made for the laws (precepts), when the laws (precepts) were made for us. The precepts are what we will NATURALLY 'be' and 'do' to the extent of our wisdom. It is easy to imagine and project, especially if you live in a country with a reliable infrastructure and modern sanitation. I'll bet the devout Buddhists who live in the slums outside of the Mumbai airport would laugh about this discussion (and then clean and cook the rats so their children have soup).
Killing a dozen or so rodents was excruciating, it was horrible, it was a rather dark week there until they were either dead or realized what was up and went to live in the feed shed (where their surviving generations still dwell alongside some ineffective rodent repellent).
I totally do admire your conviction, though. I share it, believe it or not. Your lack of experience is not your fault and it is not wrong. You just won't learn much if you believe you have it all figured out.
I truly hope you never have to make a decision where you have to choose basic sanitation over the lives of rats. I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
For some strange reason the system wouldn't let me start a fresh/new thread...( it kept saying category does not exist even though I had already clicked on a category "General Banter" ...) so I tacked this onto an old thread ...Which I guess is appropriate enough....the contents are similar....one could say the same thread.....So....
Uh Oh There Goes The Neighbourhood "Part Two"
Buddhist animal welfare practice could spark ecological disaster
In this day and age things are different, change is happening (as always) and people are becoming more aware of ecological & environmental issues...
The above being a case in point... Good intentions.... Unwholesome results... ecology & environmentally wise...
It would seem that the first precept "Do no Harm" can be a bit of a sticky one at times.... Damning other species if you do and damned if you don't so to speak....
Have you ever saved/bought and or released 'live' captive animals (destined for the dinner table,) back into the wild ?
Nope. Perhaps instead of being critical, the organisation could reach out to that Buddhist Community and reach an agreement about where, when and how a safe, ecologically-sound and commendable release could be managed?
ETA: I have always said, have I not, that even the most perfect, pure and well-intentioned Kamma will always somewhere, along the line, cause ot create a disadvantage elsewhere? It's the Balance of the Universe. If you pull, something else will push... Yin in Yang, Yang in Yin, that kind of thing.
This is also mentioned...
A while back a visiting Lama ( I think he is based in the US) came over to Auckland and through donations bought $10,000 NZ worth of sea creatures destined for the dinner table and along with a group of Buddhists from different schools and centres released them back into the wild... I guess the irony is many of these freed sea creatures will end up back in the fisherman's net and on the dinner table again...That's the swings & roundabouts of karma I guess
....
The key word in his comment, is 'Tradition'.
But -
...Is daily, habitual practice and is a given.
As I said, constructive dialogue would help.
And while it's possible that those animals would go through the same experience again, some might not. But I agree, the tradition itself needs refining, and the Monks need 'educating'...
The roll of the karmic dice ....
Also I'm not sure how many local Kiwi Buddhists will be rushing to sign up for this....
Predator Free 2050
I guess for those who do, it will for them be a case of what they feel is the lesser of two evils....in an attempt to do the least harm possible....
Uhm.... wouldn't the major and worst predator to get rid of first, be... the human being?
We must be one of the most if not THE most destructive species on the planet. We are beginning to learn but are we in time to save our planet?