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There are fundamental reasons why the Buddha did not embrace the Jain ideals of his day. Those interested in pursuing karmic sainthood for themselves should check out Jainism.
I do not see the Buddhist path towards the cessation of suffering being aided by the clinging to any ideals, even ones representing harmlessness.
Yes, we should minimize suffering where possible as the manifestation of compassion for all sentient life but equally need to see that each moment of existence anywhere is harmful to life. (whether for self or other).
Each breath, each footfall, is simply another expression of harm that either softens or intensifies suffering's cause.
@how said:
Your neighbors make the neighborhood what it is.
One bad neighbor can sour what another good neighbor can grace and vise versa.
A neighbor who understands ceasing from evil, doing only good and purifying their heart/mind sounds fine to me.
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I have a neighbor who keeps several horses, which means the whole neighborhood has mice. I have a Coon Cat who deals with the mice and her own karma. Win/win for everyone! The neighbors enjoy their horses. I enjoy a mouse free home, and the cat enjoys doing what cats do, catching mice and beating the hell out of my wife's Beagle. Life is good.
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It's easy for us westerners to sit upon a moral high horse in regards to not killing. But, what if your are a practicing Buddhist in a third world country supporting a family on a thousand or two per year? Do you really selfishly worry about your karma? Do you let your children go hungry if you can catch a fish or two or kill a chicken to feed them? There's a whole lot of the planet Earth without the safety net that most Western countries have. It's relatively easy for Americans or Europeans to embrace a no kill/vegetarian lifestyle. Is there more harm in letting children suffer and go hungry to save an animal? Just tossing this one out there.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
And if you'll forgive me for saying so, it's actually not a valid argument.
They HAVE to kill; we don't.
It may not even be the same 'flavour' Buddhism practised there; for example, Buddhism in Thailand (I believe) is also heavily peppered with local folklore, superstition, and other factors we would deem inappropriate as a component....
It's like comparing poverty; it's all relative.
A poor person in Africa may have been born into what we would classify as a pitiful state, but that may well be the prevalent situation, known to have existed for some period of time.
A person launched into a state of poverty in a particularly affluent country, will actually feel it, and experience it more desperately.
So comparisons of that kind, while understandable, are not supportive of the 'home' argument....
Actually, I believe it is valid. There's an awful lot of killing that goes on behind the scenes that westerners participate in unknowingly. Your dollars or pounds or euros do harm. We're very removed from it, but it occurs. There's a lot of killing that has to occur in AgriBiz.
Let's go back to the third world. If your a vegetarian rice farmer, do you let the rats eat the crop that feeds your family? Do you kill them? Who gets to suffer and die?
tough love or forcefulness can be needed. Ruthlessness is another thing altogether and best avoided when dealing with anyone. When I thin of ruthless, I think more Ghenghis Khan level...conquering for the point of conquering and destroying all along the way. Growing up, my dad always told us that in every situation you have the choice to construct or destroy. Choosing the former is always better.
There are certainly ways to train animals, dogs especially, to get them to listen to you without being aggressive or forceful. It requires some patience and time which it seems a lot of people are not willing to accept when they get a dog. To be a good parent, you have to understand your child. Not force your will on them. Having a good relationship with your pets (in my experience) is much the same. Our dog understands her place in the family quite well, and we never had to be forceful with her by any means. Since we couldn't expect her to think like a human, we sought out ways to think like a dog (which I believe is a lot of what @federica does) and work with that instead of against it. It works quite well.
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
Do what you need to do, and not more. Most of us kill needlessly without consideration... and that's what we need to work on.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Shak said:
Actually, I believe it is valid. There's an awful lot of killing that goes on behind the scenes that westerners participate in unknowingly. Your dollars or pounds or euros do harm. We're very removed from it, but it occurs. There's a lot of killing that has to occur in AgriBiz.
Yes, fine, but that is an entirely different topic altogether, and that's not being discussed here, so let's keep it to the matter in hand.
I'm not saying it isn't a good subject to discuss; quite the contrary, actually, I do see the point.
but I for one would be happy for you to tackle that subject in a new thread...
Let's go back to the third world. If your a vegetarian rice farmer, do you let the rats eat the crop that feeds your family? Do you kill them? Who gets to suffer and die?
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You would have to do whatever you felt necessary. What 'you' would do, in any circumstances, would be 'your' choice. And decision to live with.
A group of Hare Krishnas I know were donated an old house which they later discovered hosted a family of rats. They bought three cats and the rats simply vanished overnight. So no bad karma was at risk for anyone involved.
My house looks to the suburbs on one side, and to the country on the other.
My husband adores animals and insects that make a positive contribution to the environment. He's not a Buddhist but would never lift a hand against any creepy-crawly that chooses to stay outside the house. Once inside the house, it's "no country for old bugs" law. We rescue and deport any creature that crawls, but anything flying that faintly resembles a fly, a moth or a mosquito falls under his swat. He has no qualms about his karma.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Well there you go...
About ten minutes ago, I had to go into the pantry/laundry room in the house we rent - and the floor was swarming with flying ants, and their wingless nest co-inhabitants... The floor was black... and I knew, with the main door out to the garden a good 20 yards away, and no window either, this was going to be a nightmare.
I brushed up as many as I could in a dustpan, but the blighters kept crawling and flying off... moving them outside was going to be impossible, so I did the only thing I could.
@federica said:
zenff, people, yes.
Dogs, I'm absolutely 110% convinced this is completely and utterly unnecessary.
They can't communicate on our level.
most dogs are artificially 'kept' (by breeding practices) at the equivalent age of that of a toddler/young child. Simply because we have a scale of chronological development and can say, for example, that a 7-year-old dog is between 45 and 50 years of age in "human" terms, that does not in any way reflect their mental age.
Therefore, in the vast majority of cases, you're dealing with a 2 - 4 year-old child.
Just to put things in perspective, I’m not the Great Dictator. And it is our daughter who has a dog. They don’t live with us but we see them often. We get along just fine; the daughter and the dog and me.
The dog is just playing most of the time –the way I see it. Sometimes the dog keeps playing a game when I’m serious. It doesn’t stop until I’m close to losing my patience and something in my voice (probably also getting louder) tells it the game is over. And then it listens. That’s “being forceful” in my understanding. I talk louder and the tone changes and people (or dogs) get the message: that as far as I’m concerned the game is over.
I’m no dog-behaviorist and my social skills are average – I hope. Just being soft and quiet (like I’m most of the time) doesn’t always work. That’s not such a spectacular theory is it?
Living with 5 people and a dog (plus other animals) if everyone felt the need to raise their voice to get their point across, there would be nothing but yelling/raised voices all the time. Thanks to spending the time and effort to train her we can tell her to put her toys away, and she will, 99% of the time. We try to reserve raised voices and sharp "NO!" for things that are mostly safety related so that it is noted and listened to, as opposed to doing it every time we get inpatient so they (dog or child) learns to ignore it because it's often not that important.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited June 2014
@zenff said:The dog is just playing most of the time –the way I see it. Sometimes the dog keeps playing a game when I’m serious. It doesn’t stop until I’m close to losing my patience and something in my voice (probably also getting louder) tells it the game is over. And then it listens. That’s “being forceful” in my understanding. I talk louder and the tone changes and people (or dogs) get the message: that as far as I’m concerned the game is over.
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I’m no dog-behaviorist and my social skills are average – I hope. Just being soft and quiet (like I’m most of the time) doesn’t always work. That’s not such a spectacular theory is it?
The thing is, it's important to understand that a dog that has had adequate conditioning and training - shouldn't need telling more than once, or at the very most, twice.
Let me stick my neck out here - would you like to have a look at my dog-behaviourist website?
Lastly, ever heard of Cesar Millan?
Don't even think of touching him with a 20ft barge-pole.
Ok, maybe that's wrong.
Make it 30ft...
That man has done more to damage the relationships between dogs and their owners, than anyone else I'd care to mention....
Thanks for the comments, which are educational and makes life interesting ....
"It easy to wear a smile and be pleasant when ones life flows along like some sweet song-
But the person worthwhile is the one who can still wear a smile when things in their life go all wrong!"
Over the years (due to my profession) I've had to deal with many "unwelcome guest" problems, even did a Buddhist temple kitchen for rodents, it involved proofing, humane cage trapping, which seemed to reduce the population, but not enough to satisfy the local environmental health officer, so with the temple's reluctant permission I had to use a rodenticide (This was as a last resort after exhausting all other humane avenues of control) ...
None of us are really immune to an infestation of some kind, be it in the form of vertebrate (rodents) or invertebrate(ants, cockroaches, fleas flies, mozzies)...However ones intention behind ones actions(ie, I bear you no ill will, I'm doing this for the greater good, and not out of fear and hatred towards you other sentient beings- kind of intention and if genuinely felt), must in some way lessen the karmic blow so to speak...not eliminate it all together but soften its impact....
And speaking of karma & rebirth...this is where it gets interesting.. according to some Buddhists, that rat you are about to kill could have been ones mother in a past life or we could have been its mother in a past life...
So I have no anger, hatred or ill will in my heart and do what needs to be done to reduce or eliminate the so called inconvenience....
But in the long run we will do what we will do but we must take responsibility for our actions, ie, hold our "selves" responsible.....
@federica I would like to have the link to your dog behavior site...as the keeper of a strongheaded standard poodle, and someone who occasionally fosters homeless dogs.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
edited June 2014
@Citta said:
I am hoping that someone else might be interested in the dilemma that the Samye-Ling monks found themselves in.
They bought an old house..ironically it was an old Hunting Lodge..
They bought it as a base for retreats for lay people.
Opening it to the public, and in particular providing meals, meant that it had to comply to UK Health And Safety Laws and had to be inspected before being opened to the public.
They discovered that there was a well established rat colony in the main house.
When food was put out during ritual pujas the rats would pour out en masse..
Would would you have done if you were them ?
I would have had them exterminated professionally. Spare me from the pious hand wringing, but I too would have felt TERRIBLE for the rats and that's just the way it is here in samsara. The following is what I did do in a similar sitch:
I live in a converted garage. It is remarkably spacious and I like it. "It" is, in the end, a garage, and not sealed up as well as a house from the foundation on up.
I didn't have any cats, and the rats that called this place home before me were fearless and huge. I poisoned them. They would crawl out into the middle of the floor and die right in front of me. I found them dead behind the washing machine, beneath the sink where they were desperate for water to quench the thirst of the poison. I found them everywhere. It was hideous and I am very, very, very sorry I had to do it that way. I'll take it in the ass for that one.
Then I got a couple of cats, plugged the holes and only little mice can get in and so far, so good with the cats except when they leave an entire mouse digestive apparatus on the kitchen rug. Apparently mouse entrails are not tasty.
I don't see you 'arguing for the sake of argument', @Citta. We aren't talking about dictating how other people enact the precepts in their lives. Too much going round and round about 'words' and crap is a convenient distraction from living the precepts, in my opinion. Get out there and LIVE it, quit whining about abstractions @seeker242, it's OK to have missed Citta's point, hell, we aren't geniuses and there's nothing to WIN, hello! Arguing abstractions is a cop out, a way to avoid committing to a life of tough decisions and their consequences.
About ten minutes ago, I had to go into the pantry/laundry room in the house we rent - and the floor was swarming with flying ants, and their wingless nest co-inhabitants... The floor was black... and I knew, with the main door out to the garden a good 20 yards away, and no window either, this was going to be a nightmare.
I brushed up as many as I could in a dustpan, but the blighters kept crawling and flying off... moving them outside was going to be impossible, so I did the only thing I could.
Out came the 'ant and bug-killer' spray can.
I'm still crying now. .
I've used an electric leaf blower inside and towards the open door with success but that's seldom a tool a landlord has around for tenants to use. I have also had folks tell me that a canister vacuum with the bag removed and another vacuums flexible hose attached to the exhaust is a workable bug pick up and deliver system.
(Just to offer a possible a next time with less tears)
It sounds like it's the nuptial flight season in your part of the world, and depending on the species of ant, they can be living/nesting in the wall cavities of the laundry room, quite possibly close to an heat source eg hot water piping...
Here's a few tips on controlling invading ants : Set out some lure baits to attract the ants so has to see the direction they are coming from ie, their entry point/s...
Then you have two options
1) you gradually start to position the lure baits away from the area you don't want the ants in (you could end up drawing them outside-this would involve the Buddhist practice of patience . .. ) Once they are no longer inside then get some vaseline and smear it over the entry points-this will stop ant from entering through that particular point, you might have to carry out this procedure a few times...
2) this is not as humane as number (1) but it's better than using a pesticide... You carry out the same lure baiting procedure as in (1) then get one of those half a litre plastic trigger sprayers (you know the kind ones uses to spray the indoor plants) fill it with hot water and add a couple of drops of washing up liquid shake and mist spray the invading ants, it will kill them instantly, the washing up liquid helps to remove the waxy cuticle protection and they dry out and die... after which just just seal off the points of entry as in (1)...
It not nice nor easy to take the life of any sentient "conscious" being, but at times one is left with no other practical option...
But I guess if one is wealthy enough (more money than sense) they could always move house every time some unwelcome guests took up abode, but I don't see this happening very often.... . ..
Hmm this is a hot topic, I really agree that in some cases it is necessary to kill animals. But I do feel there is definitely a karmic impact.
@Citta, I know some animals are not native to a country but is that cause to kill them? We humans destroy more than anything else on this planet. Are we native to our environment? Not anymore.
I'll leave you guys with some food for thought! I read an article on Buddhism that said. A momentary flash of life is no more or less important than a longer flash of life. Everything is the short and the long arm of Buddha. There is fundamentally no difference between you, an elephant or a mosquito.
@Earthninja said:
Hmm this is a hot topic, I really agree that in some cases it is necessary to kill animals. But I do feel there is definitely a karmic impact.
Citta, I know some animals are not native to a country but is that cause to kill them? We humans destroy more than anything else on this planet. Are we native to our environment? Not anymore.
I'll leave you guys with some food for thought! I read an article on Buddhism that said. A momentary flash of life is no more or less important than a longer flash of life. Everything is the short and the long arm of Buddha. There is fundamentally no difference between you, an elephant or a mosquito.
So, the brown tree snake that was accidentally introduced into Guam, which has devastated the MAJORITY of the native bird population -- that's okay with you.
And a dengue fever carrying mosquito in SE Asia is of equal worth to you as a 4 year old child in SE Asia.
@vinlyn read my first paragraph. I don't see the life of a child equal to the life of a mosquito. I'd have no qualms killing the insect to protect my child or a child for instance! That's just how I've been raised right?
But the universe as a whole is different. What makes humans superior than other creatures? Why of they have a right to decide what dies and lives?
We destroy more animals than any other species in the world, we cause destruction to all environments? It's the year 2014 and we continue on to dominate Mother Nature.
All I'm trying to do is not put out how I personally feel about things, but a different point of view from some of the teachings I've read.
We have cane toads here that cause tremendous damage to the environment. It was humans who brought them here. It's not the toads fault for being itself.
I just feel sorry for all those people setting the toads on fire and hitting then with golf clubs because they are an introduced species. It's not going to stop the toads. It's only going to bring karmic manifestations to those killing them.
Sometimes we cannot help what's already done, all I'm saying is that people look differently at a mosquito and a tiger. Me included. It is a biased opinion I have. Not necessarily reality
Sorry about the novel and please don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to save the world or impart my personal opinion. Just an interesting outlook.
@Hamsaka said:
quit whining about abstractions seeker242, it's OK to have missed Citta's point, hell, we aren't geniuses and there's nothing to WIN, hello! Arguing abstractions is a cop out, a way to avoid committing to a life of tough decisions and their consequences.
I don't think not putting yourself in a tough place to begin with, is any kind of "abstraction", it's just the most effective way to keep the precepts. That is the advice of The Buddha himself
But as far as tough decisions go, I would have made the tough decision and would have abandoned that house before killing hundreds of beings. Their life is worth more than any house. But the question, for me, is moot. I would not even have had to make that decision to begin with, because I would not have moved into that house to begin with! To me, "Living the precepts" means making the tough decisions and actually keeping them. Just killing them is the easy way out.
@seeker242 said:
But as far as tough decisions go, I would have made the tough decision and would have abandoned that house before killing hundreds of beings. Their life is worth more than any house.
That’s very noble of you @seeker242.
If all people would be like you; all our houses would belong to the rats and the humans would be living in the sewers.
So let's see, seeker, you've put your life savings into a house and you would simply discard it, take the huge financial loss of those life savings, and become a street person. Okay for you.
The actual situation is possibly even worse @vinlyn
You are a Tibetan monk with only limited English, you are driven from your home when your country is invaded...you travel first to India and then to the UK.
A group of well wishers form a trust and buy you a centre...
It opens and you move in, and find a colony of rats is in situ..
So you tell the trust to keep it. And make yourself homeless...lol.
@vinlyn said:
So let's see, seeker, you've put your life savings into a house and you would simply discard it, take the huge financial loss of those life savings, and become a street person. Okay for you.
Not exactly. I would not invest in a house that was already infested with rats to begin with. Nor would I accept one as a donation if doing that meant I had to kill hundreds of rats just to use it. If someone gave me a house infested with hundreds of rats, I would say "No thank you!". I would check to make sure it was not infested first, before putting any money into it. That is just the smart thing to do!
The way to protest your investment, in the money as well as precepts vows, is to not let it become overrun by rats to begin with. If I put my life savings into a house, I would not let it become infested with rats.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited June 2014
well, it's a great theory.
but I would love to see what you would do if indeed you definitely were made homeless, had to flee your home country, familiarity, language and climate and go to a strange new land, and someone offered you a house.
I honestly don't believe you would stand so hard and fast by those rather rigid principles, to be honest with you...
As one who has had to swallow her pride more than once of late, trust me. Flexibility is the answer to many personal entrenched beliefs.
The abbott, later to become one of the most famous Buddhist teachers in the world, searched his heart for days..Eventually with many a sigh, he phoned Rentokil.
They dealt with the problem.
Samye -Ling is now the biggest and most well known Tibetan Buddhist Monastery and Retreat centre in Europe, it 'seeds' monks and nuns who spread the Buddha's Dharma all over the world.
The original old house still stands but is dwarfed by a huge traditionally built monastery.
Nearby is a retreat centre.
It hosts literally dozens of people doing the 3 year 3 month retreat at any one time.
It is also Europe's largest centre for Tibetan medicine, and Thanka painting.
During the period between the monastery opening and the rats , cough...departing, things were sometimes interesting.
It was common during pujas when food was presented on a kind of altar to see and hear the rats scurrying around with bits of banana or apple in their mouths.
They could be heard squealing under the floors and behind the walls..
It was extraordinary..the air would be filled with the deep sonorous sound of Tibetan chanting, while under your feet ..squeak squeak squeal and the sound of little feet.
@Citta said:
During the period between the monastery opening and the rats , cough...departing, things were sometimes interesting.
Please, nobody think I don't feel sorry for the poor rats, but @Citta, this comment is so full of English humour, I could almost picture Stephen Fry or David Walliams telling it.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Oh wait a minute.... I can see how this thread is going...... we're finding the level.....
I guess the conclusion could be, your neighbourhood goes to shambles or is Desperate-Housewives spic-span, depending on what sort of Buddhist person lives next door.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I never ever saw a single episode of 'Desperate Housewives' (or 'Sex in the City', for that matter) but from what I understand, underneath all those beautifully coiffed, perfectly manicured, delightfully dressed exteriors, lay an interior of high anxiety, angst and insecurity.
@federica said:
well, it's a great theory.
but I would love to see what you would do if indeed you definitely were made homeless, had to flee your home country, familiarity, language and climate and go to a strange new land, and someone offered you a house
I honestly don't believe you would stand so hard and fast by those rather rigid principles, to be honest with you...
Honestly, I do believe that I could and that I would! I don't see them as "rigid principals". To me, they are not "dogma", they are not "strict rules". They are just the proper way to live life... I'm a staunch vegan, hardcore animal rights activist! To people like me, there is no flexibility when it comes to not killing animals! Especially cute little rats! I love rats! They're adorable!
But honestly, I don't understand why, on a Buddhist forum, people are criticized for saying they would keep the precepts? That makes no sense! You would think keeping the precepts would be encouraged on a Buddhist forum... Is this still even a Buddhist forum??? I don't know!!
In situations like this (when it comes to keeping the "do not kill" precept) I guess for many it's a case of "I would if I could-but I can't so I won't/don't !"...And who am I to judge...
Metta Shoshin
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
First of all, there is a vast difference, sadly, between domestic pet-bred rats and sewer rats. My daughter has rats; always has had, and they are remarkable, intelligent, affectionate creatures with an extremely acute sense of loyalty and fun.
Sewer rats are simply NOT the same at all. They don't behave or react in the same way. 'Cute' is honestly not a term I would use for them. They're devious opportunists and are quite ruthless in their approach to getting food (another good reason to not leave partially eaten dog-food down on the floor, in its bowl!) They have been known to inflict bites on children and have carnivoral tendencies when very hungry. They give off a very nasty pungent smell, and have been known to attack domestic animals such as rabbits or guinea pigs kept outside in hutches or enclosures.
Your sentiments are extremely noble, But I still don't believe, if you were truly devastated by personal tragedy, that you would be so dismissive of the kindness and charity of others, even if it meant going against your principles.
And we're laypeople. we do our best to adhere to the principles we hold dear.
But if ordained monks have had to make drastic decisions of that ilk, I don't see why we should be held to task for wishing to safeguard our environment in the same way.
Comments
Sorry @federica you've lost me there.....
Weird. That's the second time you have quoted me as @Citta
There are fundamental reasons why the Buddha did not embrace the Jain ideals of his day. Those interested in pursuing karmic sainthood for themselves should check out Jainism.
I do not see the Buddhist path towards the cessation of suffering being aided by the clinging to any ideals, even ones representing harmlessness.
Yes, we should minimize suffering where possible as the manifestation of compassion for all sentient life but equally need to see that each moment of existence anywhere is harmful to life. (whether for self or other).
Each breath, each footfall, is simply another expression of harm that either softens or intensifies suffering's cause.
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I have a neighbor who keeps several horses, which means the whole neighborhood has mice. I have a Coon Cat who deals with the mice and her own karma. Win/win for everyone! The neighbors enjoy their horses. I enjoy a mouse free home, and the cat enjoys doing what cats do, catching mice and beating the hell out of my wife's Beagle. Life is good.
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Well said @how
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Oh all right, all right... we all make mistakes, said the hedgehog climbing off the scrubbing brush....
I meant @robot.....
It's easy for us westerners to sit upon a moral high horse in regards to not killing. But, what if your are a practicing Buddhist in a third world country supporting a family on a thousand or two per year? Do you really selfishly worry about your karma? Do you let your children go hungry if you can catch a fish or two or kill a chicken to feed them? There's a whole lot of the planet Earth without the safety net that most Western countries have. It's relatively easy for Americans or Europeans to embrace a no kill/vegetarian lifestyle. Is there more harm in letting children suffer and go hungry to save an animal? Just tossing this one out there.
And if you'll forgive me for saying so, it's actually not a valid argument.
They HAVE to kill; we don't.
It may not even be the same 'flavour' Buddhism practised there; for example, Buddhism in Thailand (I believe) is also heavily peppered with local folklore, superstition, and other factors we would deem inappropriate as a component....
It's like comparing poverty; it's all relative.
A poor person in Africa may have been born into what we would classify as a pitiful state, but that may well be the prevalent situation, known to have existed for some period of time.
A person launched into a state of poverty in a particularly affluent country, will actually feel it, and experience it more desperately.
So comparisons of that kind, while understandable, are not supportive of the 'home' argument....
Actually, I believe it is valid. There's an awful lot of killing that goes on behind the scenes that westerners participate in unknowingly. Your dollars or pounds or euros do harm. We're very removed from it, but it occurs. There's a lot of killing that has to occur in AgriBiz.
Let's go back to the third world. If your a vegetarian rice farmer, do you let the rats eat the crop that feeds your family? Do you kill them? Who gets to suffer and die?
tough love or forcefulness can be needed. Ruthlessness is another thing altogether and best avoided when dealing with anyone. When I thin of ruthless, I think more Ghenghis Khan level...conquering for the point of conquering and destroying all along the way. Growing up, my dad always told us that in every situation you have the choice to construct or destroy. Choosing the former is always better.
There are certainly ways to train animals, dogs especially, to get them to listen to you without being aggressive or forceful. It requires some patience and time which it seems a lot of people are not willing to accept when they get a dog. To be a good parent, you have to understand your child. Not force your will on them. Having a good relationship with your pets (in my experience) is much the same. Our dog understands her place in the family quite well, and we never had to be forceful with her by any means. Since we couldn't expect her to think like a human, we sought out ways to think like a dog (which I believe is a lot of what @federica does) and work with that instead of against it. It works quite well.
Do what you need to do, and not more. Most of us kill needlessly without consideration... and that's what we need to work on.
Yes, fine, but that is an entirely different topic altogether, and that's not being discussed here, so let's keep it to the matter in hand.
I'm not saying it isn't a good subject to discuss; quite the contrary, actually, I do see the point.
but I for one would be happy for you to tackle that subject in a new thread...
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You would have to do whatever you felt necessary. What 'you' would do, in any circumstances, would be 'your' choice. And decision to live with.
Fair enough.
A group of Hare Krishnas I know were donated an old house which they later discovered hosted a family of rats. They bought three cats and the rats simply vanished overnight. So no bad karma was at risk for anyone involved.
My house looks to the suburbs on one side, and to the country on the other.
My husband adores animals and insects that make a positive contribution to the environment. He's not a Buddhist but would never lift a hand against any creepy-crawly that chooses to stay outside the house. Once inside the house, it's "no country for old bugs" law. We rescue and deport any creature that crawls, but anything flying that faintly resembles a fly, a moth or a mosquito falls under his swat. He has no qualms about his karma.
Well there you go...
About ten minutes ago, I had to go into the pantry/laundry room in the house we rent - and the floor was swarming with flying ants, and their wingless nest co-inhabitants... The floor was black... and I knew, with the main door out to the garden a good 20 yards away, and no window either, this was going to be a nightmare.
I brushed up as many as I could in a dustpan, but the blighters kept crawling and flying off... moving them outside was going to be impossible, so I did the only thing I could.
Out came the 'ant and bug-killer' spray can.
I'm still crying now.
.
Just to put things in perspective, I’m not the Great Dictator. And it is our daughter who has a dog. They don’t live with us but we see them often. We get along just fine; the daughter and the dog and me.
The dog is just playing most of the time –the way I see it. Sometimes the dog keeps playing a game when I’m serious. It doesn’t stop until I’m close to losing my patience and something in my voice (probably also getting louder) tells it the game is over. And then it listens. That’s “being forceful” in my understanding. I talk louder and the tone changes and people (or dogs) get the message: that as far as I’m concerned the game is over.
I’m no dog-behaviorist and my social skills are average – I hope. Just being soft and quiet (like I’m most of the time) doesn’t always work. That’s not such a spectacular theory is it?
Living with 5 people and a dog (plus other animals) if everyone felt the need to raise their voice to get their point across, there would be nothing but yelling/raised voices all the time. Thanks to spending the time and effort to train her we can tell her to put her toys away, and she will, 99% of the time. We try to reserve raised voices and sharp "NO!" for things that are mostly safety related so that it is noted and listened to, as opposed to doing it every time we get inpatient so they (dog or child) learns to ignore it because it's often not that important.
>
The thing is, it's important to understand that a dog that has had adequate conditioning and training - shouldn't need telling more than once, or at the very most, twice.
Let me stick my neck out here - would you like to have a look at my dog-behaviourist website?
Lastly, ever heard of Cesar Millan?
Don't even think of touching him with a 20ft barge-pole.
Ok, maybe that's wrong.
Make it 30ft...
That man has done more to damage the relationships between dogs and their owners, than anyone else I'd care to mention....
I'll take a cat over a dog every time.
Yes, I try to be the calm assertive leader :cool:
I would be interested in your dog-behaviourist website.
If anyone has a site on how to deal with grandchildren going berserk, I'm also interested in that.
Also, if you need advice on how to handle drunken deckhands, I'm your man.
Kia Ora,
Thanks for the comments, which are educational and makes life interesting ....
"It easy to wear a smile and be pleasant when ones life flows along like some sweet song-
But the person worthwhile is the one who can still wear a smile when things in their life go all wrong!"
Over the years (due to my profession) I've had to deal with many "unwelcome guest" problems, even did a Buddhist temple kitchen for rodents, it involved proofing, humane cage trapping, which seemed to reduce the population, but not enough to satisfy the local environmental health officer, so with the temple's reluctant permission I had to use a rodenticide (This was as a last resort after exhausting all other humane avenues of control) ...
None of us are really immune to an infestation of some kind, be it in the form of vertebrate (rodents) or invertebrate(ants, cockroaches, fleas flies, mozzies)...However ones intention behind ones actions(ie, I bear you no ill will, I'm doing this for the greater good, and not out of fear and hatred towards you other sentient beings- kind of intention and if genuinely felt), must in some way lessen the karmic blow so to speak...not eliminate it all together but soften its impact....
And speaking of karma & rebirth...this is where it gets interesting.. according to some Buddhists, that rat you are about to kill could have been ones mother in a past life or we could have been its mother in a past life...
So I have no anger, hatred or ill will in my heart and do what needs to be done to reduce or eliminate the so called inconvenience....
But in the long run we will do what we will do but we must take responsibility for our actions, ie, hold our "selves" responsible.....
Metta Shoshin
Kia Ora@robert,
One does not take cats...they take/pick us/humans, we're their servants .
.. 
Metta Shoshin
@federica I would like to have the link to your dog behavior site...as the keeper of a strongheaded standard poodle, and someone who occasionally fosters homeless dogs.
I would have had them exterminated professionally. Spare me from the pious hand wringing, but I too would have felt TERRIBLE for the rats and that's just the way it is here in samsara. The following is what I did do in a similar sitch:
I live in a converted garage. It is remarkably spacious and I like it. "It" is, in the end, a garage, and not sealed up as well as a house from the foundation on up.
I didn't have any cats, and the rats that called this place home before me were fearless and huge. I poisoned them. They would crawl out into the middle of the floor and die right in front of me. I found them dead behind the washing machine, beneath the sink where they were desperate for water to quench the thirst of the poison. I found them everywhere. It was hideous and I am very, very, very sorry I had to do it that way. I'll take it in the ass for that one.
Then I got a couple of cats, plugged the holes and only little mice can get in and so far, so good with the cats except when they leave an entire mouse digestive apparatus on the kitchen rug. Apparently mouse entrails are not tasty.
I don't see you 'arguing for the sake of argument', @Citta. We aren't talking about dictating how other people enact the precepts in their lives. Too much going round and round about 'words' and crap is a convenient distraction from living the precepts, in my opinion. Get out there and LIVE it, quit whining about abstractions @seeker242, it's OK to have missed Citta's point, hell, we aren't geniuses and there's nothing to WIN, hello! Arguing abstractions is a cop out, a way to avoid committing to a life of tough decisions and their consequences.
I've used an electric leaf blower inside and towards the open door with success but that's seldom a tool a landlord has around for tenants to use. I have also had folks tell me that a canister vacuum with the bag removed and another vacuums flexible hose attached to the exhaust is a workable bug pick up and deliver system.
(Just to offer a possible a next time with less tears)
Kia Ora @federica,
It sounds like it's the nuptial flight season in your part of the world, and depending on the species of ant, they can be living/nesting in the wall cavities of the laundry room, quite possibly close to an heat source eg hot water piping...
Here's a few tips on controlling invading ants : Set out some lure baits to attract the ants so has to see the direction they are coming from ie, their entry point/s...
Then you have two options
1) you gradually start to position the lure baits away from the area you don't want the ants in (you could end up drawing them outside-this would involve the Buddhist practice of patience .
.. ) Once they are no longer inside then get some vaseline and smear it over the entry points-this will stop ant from entering through that particular point, you might have to carry out this procedure a few times...
2) this is not as humane as number (1) but it's better than using a pesticide... You carry out the same lure baiting procedure as in (1) then get one of those half a litre plastic trigger sprayers (you know the kind ones uses to spray the indoor plants) fill it with hot water and add a couple of drops of washing up liquid shake and mist spray the invading ants, it will kill them instantly, the washing up liquid helps to remove the waxy cuticle protection and they dry out and die... after which just just seal off the points of entry as in (1)...
It not nice nor easy to take the life of any sentient "conscious" being, but at times one is left with no other practical option...
But I guess if one is wealthy enough (more money than sense) they could always move house every time some unwelcome guests took up abode, but I don't see this happening very often.... .
..
Metta Shoshin
Hmm this is a hot topic, I really agree that in some cases it is necessary to kill animals. But I do feel there is definitely a karmic impact.
@Citta, I know some animals are not native to a country but is that cause to kill them? We humans destroy more than anything else on this planet. Are we native to our environment? Not anymore.
I'll leave you guys with some food for thought! I read an article on Buddhism that said. A momentary flash of life is no more or less important than a longer flash of life. Everything is the short and the long arm of Buddha. There is fundamentally no difference between you, an elephant or a mosquito.
So, the brown tree snake that was accidentally introduced into Guam, which has devastated the MAJORITY of the native bird population -- that's okay with you.
And a dengue fever carrying mosquito in SE Asia is of equal worth to you as a 4 year old child in SE Asia.
How cruel.
@vinlyn read my first paragraph. I don't see the life of a child equal to the life of a mosquito. I'd have no qualms killing the insect to protect my child or a child for instance! That's just how I've been raised right?
But the universe as a whole is different. What makes humans superior than other creatures? Why of they have a right to decide what dies and lives?
We destroy more animals than any other species in the world, we cause destruction to all environments? It's the year 2014 and we continue on to dominate Mother Nature.
All I'm trying to do is not put out how I personally feel about things, but a different point of view from some of the teachings I've read.
We have cane toads here that cause tremendous damage to the environment. It was humans who brought them here. It's not the toads fault for being itself.
I just feel sorry for all those people setting the toads on fire and hitting then with golf clubs because they are an introduced species. It's not going to stop the toads. It's only going to bring karmic manifestations to those killing them.
Sometimes we cannot help what's already done, all I'm saying is that people look differently at a mosquito and a tiger. Me included. It is a biased opinion I have. Not necessarily reality
Sorry about the novel and please don't misunderstand me.
I'm not trying to save the world or impart my personal opinion. Just an interesting outlook.
Okay, you seem realistic about it. Thanks for clarifying for me.
I don't think not putting yourself in a tough place to begin with, is any kind of "abstraction", it's just the most effective way to keep the precepts. That is the advice of The Buddha himself
But as far as tough decisions go, I would have made the tough decision and would have abandoned that house before killing hundreds of beings. Their life is worth more than any house. But the question, for me, is moot. I would not even have had to make that decision to begin with, because I would not have moved into that house to begin with! To me, "Living the precepts" means making the tough decisions and actually keeping them. Just killing them is the easy way out.
That’s very noble of you @seeker242.
If all people would be like you; all our houses would belong to the rats and the humans would be living in the sewers.
So let's see, seeker, you've put your life savings into a house and you would simply discard it, take the huge financial loss of those life savings, and become a street person. Okay for you.
The actual situation is possibly even worse @vinlyn
You are a Tibetan monk with only limited English, you are driven from your home when your country is invaded...you travel first to India and then to the UK.
A group of well wishers form a trust and buy you a centre...
It opens and you move in, and find a colony of rats is in situ..
So you tell the trust to keep it. And make yourself homeless...lol.
Not exactly. I would not invest in a house that was already infested with rats to begin with. Nor would I accept one as a donation if doing that meant I had to kill hundreds of rats just to use it. If someone gave me a house infested with hundreds of rats, I would say "No thank you!". I would check to make sure it was not infested first, before putting any money into it. That is just the smart thing to do!
The way to protest your investment, in the money as well as precepts vows, is to not let it become overrun by rats to begin with. If I put my life savings into a house, I would not let it become infested with rats.
well, it's a great theory.
but I would love to see what you would do if indeed you definitely were made homeless, had to flee your home country, familiarity, language and climate and go to a strange new land, and someone offered you a house.
I honestly don't believe you would stand so hard and fast by those rather rigid principles, to be honest with you...
As one who has had to swallow her pride more than once of late, trust me. Flexibility is the answer to many personal entrenched beliefs.
What actually happened was this.
The abbott, later to become one of the most famous Buddhist teachers in the world, searched his heart for days..Eventually with many a sigh, he phoned Rentokil.
They dealt with the problem.
Samye -Ling is now the biggest and most well known Tibetan Buddhist Monastery and Retreat centre in Europe, it 'seeds' monks and nuns who spread the Buddha's Dharma all over the world.
The original old house still stands but is dwarfed by a huge traditionally built monastery.
Nearby is a retreat centre.
It hosts literally dozens of people doing the 3 year 3 month retreat at any one time.
It is also Europe's largest centre for Tibetan medicine, and Thanka painting.
It is a huge powerhouse for Dharma.
During the period between the monastery opening and the rats , cough...departing, things were sometimes interesting.
It was common during pujas when food was presented on a kind of altar to see and hear the rats scurrying around with bits of banana or apple in their mouths.
They could be heard squealing under the floors and behind the walls..
It was extraordinary..the air would be filled with the deep sonorous sound of Tibetan chanting, while under your feet ..squeak squeak squeal and the sound of little feet.
But I digress..
uh oh what happened in the neighbourhood?
Oh it's a long story....
Please, nobody think I don't feel sorry for the poor rats, but @Citta, this comment is so full of English humour, I could almost picture Stephen Fry or David Walliams telling it.
Oh wait a minute.... I can see how this thread is going...... we're finding the level.....
Sorry..I'll shut up.
I guess the conclusion could be, your neighbourhood goes to shambles or is Desperate-Housewives spic-span, depending on what sort of Buddhist person lives next door.
as I said -- okay for you.
I never ever saw a single episode of 'Desperate Housewives' (or 'Sex in the City', for that matter) but from what I understand, underneath all those beautifully coiffed, perfectly manicured, delightfully dressed exteriors, lay an interior of high anxiety, angst and insecurity.
Or maybe I'm thinking of my VI form college....
Honestly, I do believe that I could and that I would!
I don't see them as "rigid principals". To me, they are not "dogma", they are not "strict rules". They are just the proper way to live life... I'm a staunch vegan, hardcore animal rights activist! To people like me, there is no flexibility when it comes to not killing animals! Especially cute little rats! I love rats! They're adorable! 
But honestly, I don't understand why, on a Buddhist forum, people are criticized for saying they would keep the precepts? That makes no sense! You would think keeping the precepts would be encouraged on a Buddhist forum... Is this still even a Buddhist forum??? I don't know!!
Kia Ora,
In situations like this (when it comes to keeping the "do not kill" precept) I guess for many it's a case of "I would if I could-but I can't so I won't/don't !"...And who am I to judge...
Metta Shoshin
First of all, there is a vast difference, sadly, between domestic pet-bred rats and sewer rats. My daughter has rats; always has had, and they are remarkable, intelligent, affectionate creatures with an extremely acute sense of loyalty and fun.
Sewer rats are simply NOT the same at all. They don't behave or react in the same way. 'Cute' is honestly not a term I would use for them. They're devious opportunists and are quite ruthless in their approach to getting food (another good reason to not leave partially eaten dog-food down on the floor, in its bowl!) They have been known to inflict bites on children and have carnivoral tendencies when very hungry. They give off a very nasty pungent smell, and have been known to attack domestic animals such as rabbits or guinea pigs kept outside in hutches or enclosures.
Your sentiments are extremely noble, But I still don't believe, if you were truly devastated by personal tragedy, that you would be so dismissive of the kindness and charity of others, even if it meant going against your principles.
And we're laypeople. we do our best to adhere to the principles we hold dear.
But if ordained monks have had to make drastic decisions of that ilk, I don't see why we should be held to task for wishing to safeguard our environment in the same way.
Get out the saddle. High horses don't suit you.