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Some of the responses make me think we are supposed to be full on samadhi all the time or something. That we shouldn't contemplate, inquire, think at all. Perhaps I'm mistaken in my interpretations though. Here's a jon Kabot-Zinn quote I am reminded of. Bob
"The experience of deep samadhi is very pleasant. In attending to the breath with onepointed concentration, everything else falls away—including thoughts, feelings, the outside world. Samadhi is characterized by absorption in stillness and undisturbed peacefulness. A taste of this stillness can be attractive, even intoxicating. One naturally finds oneself seeking this peacefulness and the simplicity of a state characterized by absorption and bliss.
But concentration practice, however strong and satisfying, is incomplete without mindfulness to complement and deepen it. By itself, it resembles a state of withdrawal from the world. Its characteristic energy is closed rather than open, absorbed rather than available, trancelike rather than fully awake.What is missing is the energy of curiosity, inquiry, investigation, openness, availability, engagement with the full range of phenomena experienced by human beings.This is the domain of mindfulness practice, in which onepointedness and the ability to bring calmness and stability of mind to the present moment are put in the service of looking deeply into and understanding the interconnectedness of a wide range of life experiences."
Mindfulness reveals the qualities of mind that are true rather than delusions. So definitely, @MeisterBob, we want the qualities of curiousity, inquiry, etc. Openness is the nature of mind. When times are rough we face them with openness. When times are good we take wonder of how our mind is and see its nature.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@how said: The practice is the offered understanding with the you in the questions or answers simply background noice.
>
I therefore take it that 'practice' includes Right Speech? The question is rhetorical. Something to ponder, @how...
@MeisterBob said:
Some of the responses make me think we are supposed to be full on samadhi all the time or something. That we shouldn't contemplate, inquire, think at all. Perhaps I'm mistaken in my interpretations though. Here's a jon Kabot-Zinn quote I am reminded of. Bob
"The experience of deep samadhi is very pleasant. In attending to the breath with onepointed concentration, everything else falls away—including thoughts, feelings, the outside world. Samadhi is characterized by absorption in stillness and undisturbed peacefulness. A taste of this stillness can be attractive, even intoxicating. One naturally finds oneself seeking this peacefulness and the simplicity of a state characterized by absorption and bliss.
But concentration practice, however strong and satisfying, is incomplete without mindfulness to complement and deepen it. By itself, it resembles a state of withdrawal from the world. Its characteristic energy is closed rather than open, absorbed rather than available, trancelike rather than fully awake.What is missing is the energy of curiosity, inquiry, investigation, openness, availability, engagement with the full range of phenomena experienced by human beings.This is the domain of mindfulness practice, in which onepointedness and the ability to bring calmness and stability of mind to the present moment are put in the service of looking deeply into and understanding the interconnectedness of a wide range of life experiences."
"First the mountains are mountains and the trees are trees. Then the mountains and not mountains and the trees are not trees. Then the mountains are mountains again, and the trees are trees again."
@MeisterBob said:
Some of the responses make me think we are supposed to be full on samadhi all the time or something. That we shouldn't contemplate, inquire, think at all. Perhaps I'm mistaken in my interpretations though.
I don't think anyone said that. I dare think we're all for contemplation and thinking, though probably skillful contemplation and right thinking.
So, no, I think it's probably your interpretation.
Sort of I guess. I mean being present allows me to experience the fullness and richness of everything I may have ignored. Im awake,alive and exploration, curiosity, questioning, contemplating,examining the things we take for granted is wonder- full. Ive gone down the samadhi almost zombie-like path before and it was intoxicating but I wasnt living either if you know what I mean. It was incomplete as JK-Z puts it.... I like questioning things like like what is reality? Dont know! But reality is more wonderful being unknowable in my opinion. @dharmamom-Probably just thrown off by not following the replies closely enough.
There is relative and there is absolute-at least for me. In the absolute sense nothing is knowable or truly understood but perhaps that is the understanding in itself...It doesnt stop me from glazing at Hubble shots or reading about quantum mechanics though. lol! Bob
@MeisterBob, I like what you are doing noticing beauty and other positive things. Imagine how could it be that there is a mind that can do this. Open to the beauty. Does it say anything? Where do you feel it? Who is feeling it?
Don't feel bad for feeling good. .
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Cinorjer said:"First the mountains are mountains and the trees are trees. Then the mountains and not mountains and the trees are not trees. Then the mountains are mountains again, and the trees are trees again."
>
Reminds me of the Donovan song, "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is..."
@Jeffrey said:
MeisterBob, I like what you are doing noticing beauty and other positive things. Imagine how could it be that there is a mind that can do this. Open to the beauty. Does it say anything? Where do you feel it? Who is feeling it?
Don't feel bad for feeling good. .
Right!- that resonates with me. Who? -don't know! ... I caught some nice Red-tailed hawk shots today...wonder-full! Bob
Someone specifically directed a question to me, the root of which they've asked repeatedly here before. Despite witnessing a plethora of answers offered to the OP about variations on this question over the last couple of years, the same question reappears from the OP as though no answer was ever received.
My response was simply saying that it is in the meditation practice itself that a Dharmic answer can best manifest and be understood without being limited by the grasping's and avoidance's that a mere mentality can offer. This is especially true when that mentality is self labeled as a Hindu who (IMO) consistently seems unable to hear Buddhist answers.
In such a case, "right speech" is also pointing out that a Buddhist understanding, has as it's foundation, fundamental teachings that have separated it from Hinduism for 2600 years.
The OP's questions that I hear are really only his challenge to the Buddhas rejection of his particular path, and while understandable, is the real rhetorical question here.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Given the Op's tendency to over-think the majority of answers received, it is doubtful that any amount of meditation will be of any help to him whatsoever. It my well be that indeed, until he stills his mind and ruminates while calmly abiding, he will never find the answers that will give him solace and serenity.
If we cannot provide the answers he seeks, and it vexes us that his questions persist, it is perfectly acceptable to refrain from responding at all, and leaving him to pin the tail on the donkey, at his leisure, even though he is not blindfolded.....
@how, I perfectly understand your point of view. Some people have a tendency to ask variations of the same question time and time again.
But don't forget some answers are harder for some people to come by, and that the 80,000 suttas are 80,000 variations of a single teaching.
We're all in different stages of development.
I also suspect that when someone is too much on the theory, they keep stumbling over their own ideas, so I agree with you that @misecmisc1 could probably increase his practise.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I say that a consistent meditation routine is worth a thousand suttas.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
if we try to be in here and now, then since the present moment is so small that it cannot be held, the question which arises is - can something be understood if we try to be in here and now? logically thinking the answer comes as no, because for understanding, thinking is needed and where is the time to think in here and now. may be i am asking a stupid question, but will like to know that if we try to be in present moment, then can something be understood?
moreover, how will wisdom arise, if we are in the present moment - without thinking anything? how will we know what is skillful and what is not skillful without thinking? can being in here and now be really practiced through even just half a day completely in reality, or may be even 1 hour - is it possible?
any ideas, please. thanks in advance.
Hello, Misemisc1.
First, I think it's ok to ponder these things as long as we don't get too attached to any outcome. Now, you say the present moment is so small that it cannot be held but there is a small problem with this premise... And it turns into a big problem, hehe.
@Jeffrey is right when he says there is no smallest increment but that is not to say that the present moment is very small because the present moment is literally all there is!
Using relative terms, it's actually very big.
With math, the smallest increment cannot be found without finding the largest increment. Say the largest number was 12 000... The smallest increment would be 1/12 000. The problem is that like the horizon, the largest keeps getting bigger the closer we get to glimpsing it. For instance if we try to half 1/12 000 we get 1/24 000 which makes the largest number 24 000 and on-and-on we go.
It isn't a bunch of little moments passing us by, it's one ever-changing moment that we keep trying to nail down before its due.
Also you suggest that thinking is needed for understanding but I understand it is the other way around... I think.
Try thinking your way into catching a ball as opposed to being in the zone and letting it fall into your hand
Also, if I accidentally put my hand on a hot stove, I understand immediately... No thinking needed.
I believe Buddha woke up with understanding. After understanding the path, he was then able to think of how best to illuminate it for the rest of us.
Comments
The practice is the offered understanding with the you in the questions or answers simply background noice.
Some of the responses make me think we are supposed to be full on samadhi all the time or something. That we shouldn't contemplate, inquire, think at all. Perhaps I'm mistaken in my interpretations though. Here's a jon Kabot-Zinn quote I am reminded of. Bob
"The experience of deep samadhi is very pleasant. In attending to the breath with onepointed concentration, everything else falls away—including thoughts, feelings, the outside world. Samadhi is characterized by absorption in stillness and undisturbed peacefulness. A taste of this stillness can be attractive, even intoxicating. One naturally finds oneself seeking this peacefulness and the simplicity of a state characterized by absorption and bliss.
But concentration practice, however strong and satisfying, is incomplete without mindfulness to complement and deepen it. By itself, it resembles a state of withdrawal from the world. Its characteristic energy is closed rather than open, absorbed rather than available, trancelike rather than fully awake.What is missing is the energy of curiosity, inquiry, investigation, openness, availability, engagement with the full range of phenomena experienced by human beings.This is the domain of mindfulness practice, in which onepointedness and the ability to bring calmness and stability of mind to the present moment are put in the service of looking deeply into and understanding the interconnectedness of a wide range of life experiences."
Mindfulness reveals the qualities of mind that are true rather than delusions. So definitely, @MeisterBob, we want the qualities of curiousity, inquiry, etc. Openness is the nature of mind. When times are rough we face them with openness. When times are good we take wonder of how our mind is and see its nature.
>
I therefore take it that 'practice' includes Right Speech? The question is rhetorical. Something to ponder, @how...
"First the mountains are mountains and the trees are trees. Then the mountains and not mountains and the trees are not trees. Then the mountains are mountains again, and the trees are trees again."
Is that what you mean?
I don't think anyone said that. I dare think we're all for contemplation and thinking, though probably skillful contemplation and right thinking.
So, no, I think it's probably your interpretation.
Sort of I guess. I mean being present allows me to experience the fullness and richness of everything I may have ignored. Im awake,alive and exploration, curiosity, questioning, contemplating,examining the things we take for granted is wonder- full. Ive gone down the samadhi almost zombie-like path before and it was intoxicating but I wasnt living either if you know what I mean. It was incomplete as JK-Z puts it.... I like questioning things like like what is reality? Dont know! But reality is more wonderful being unknowable in my opinion.
@dharmamom-Probably just thrown off by not following the replies closely enough.
There is relative and there is absolute-at least for me. In the absolute sense nothing is knowable or truly understood but perhaps that is the understanding in itself...It doesnt stop me from glazing at Hubble shots or reading about quantum mechanics though. lol! Bob
@MeisterBob, I like what you are doing noticing beauty and other positive things. Imagine how could it be that there is a mind that can do this. Open to the beauty. Does it say anything? Where do you feel it? Who is feeling it?
Don't feel bad for feeling good.
.
>
Reminds me of the Donovan song, "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is..."
Right!- that resonates with me. Who? -don't know! ... I caught some nice Red-tailed hawk shots today...wonder-full! Bob
@federica
Someone specifically directed a question to me, the root of which they've asked repeatedly here before. Despite witnessing a plethora of answers offered to the OP about variations on this question over the last couple of years, the same question reappears from the OP as though no answer was ever received.
My response was simply saying that it is in the meditation practice itself that a Dharmic answer can best manifest and be understood without being limited by the grasping's and avoidance's that a mere mentality can offer. This is especially true when that mentality is self labeled as a Hindu who (IMO) consistently seems unable to hear Buddhist answers.
In such a case, "right speech" is also pointing out that a Buddhist understanding, has as it's foundation, fundamental teachings that have separated it from Hinduism for 2600 years.
The OP's questions that I hear are really only his challenge to the Buddhas rejection of his particular path, and while understandable, is the real rhetorical question here.
Given the Op's tendency to over-think the majority of answers received, it is doubtful that any amount of meditation will be of any help to him whatsoever. It my well be that indeed, until he stills his mind and ruminates while calmly abiding, he will never find the answers that will give him solace and serenity.
If we cannot provide the answers he seeks, and it vexes us that his questions persist, it is perfectly acceptable to refrain from responding at all, and leaving him to pin the tail on the donkey, at his leisure, even though he is not blindfolded.....
Nice!
@how, I perfectly understand your point of view. Some people have a tendency to ask variations of the same question time and time again.
But don't forget some answers are harder for some people to come by, and that the 80,000 suttas are 80,000 variations of a single teaching.
We're all in different stages of development.
I also suspect that when someone is too much on the theory, they keep stumbling over their own ideas, so I agree with you that @misecmisc1 could probably increase his practise.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I say that a consistent meditation routine is worth a thousand suttas.
@misecmisc1 said:
Hello, Misemisc1.
First, I think it's ok to ponder these things as long as we don't get too attached to any outcome. Now, you say the present moment is so small that it cannot be held but there is a small problem with this premise... And it turns into a big problem, hehe.
@Jeffrey is right when he says there is no smallest increment but that is not to say that the present moment is very small because the present moment is literally all there is!
Using relative terms, it's actually very big.
With math, the smallest increment cannot be found without finding the largest increment. Say the largest number was 12 000... The smallest increment would be 1/12 000. The problem is that like the horizon, the largest keeps getting bigger the closer we get to glimpsing it. For instance if we try to half 1/12 000 we get 1/24 000 which makes the largest number 24 000 and on-and-on we go.
It isn't a bunch of little moments passing us by, it's one ever-changing moment that we keep trying to nail down before its due.
Also you suggest that thinking is needed for understanding but I understand it is the other way around... I think.
Try thinking your way into catching a ball as opposed to being in the zone and letting it fall into your hand
Also, if I accidentally put my hand on a hot stove, I understand immediately... No thinking needed.
I believe Buddha woke up with understanding. After understanding the path, he was then able to think of how best to illuminate it for the rest of us.
.