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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
It SHOULD be mandatory, but as I stated, RCs like to move the goalposts. It was once part of doctrine that meat should be abstained from on Fridays (the day Christ died) but then, they let fish in, because a fish has no limbs. (oh, really....?!) Then that rule too, has been relaxed. See, The RC church doesn't want to be seen as overly officious, but it still has 'rules' which would make a mute scream.....
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Your links are very interesting, by the way, thank you: particularly the second document, which I will take time to read. So I will not comment on something not yet read, but again, thanks for finding them!
In my country I think some people respected the fasting days but I never noticed since eating an overfilled dish of meat or fish is the same, and I liked both.
Orthodox on the other hand have more serious fasting habits, they go vegan one third of the year. But the Desert Fathers went even further some did absolute fast sevral days a week, others lived only on bread. John Cassian explains that, and he also aknowledges more extreme dietary practices are not suitable to everyone nor excessive days of fasting that can lead to glutony when interrupted.
About the links you are welcome, to be honest though I love the Quest for the Holy Grail from the vulgata cycle I find medieval mysticism too emotional and mentaly deranged.
@WanMin said:
Besides reading your comment of Christianity I understand you are also misinformed about that tradition
The link I posted was the transcription of an article dealing with the tradition of fasting and self-denial in the different religious beliefs.
As @federica very rightly pointed out, it is the transcription of an article, therefore someone else's opinion, in the case of Buddhism, a Tibetan lama, not mine.
I posted it because besides dealing with fasting, it mentioned self-denial in passing.
As to being misinformed about Christianity, big mistake.
I grew up in a Catholic household and was educated for twelve years in a Catholic school.
Can hardly be misinformed about Christianity.
@zenguitar said:
But is it true that all suffering is bad? Maybe some suffering is necessary in order to spur us on to greater achievements. After all, the Buddha didn’t leave his cushy palace to seek enlightenment until he witnessed the suffering of old age, sickness, and death.
It's worth observing that suffering is the connecting link between dependent origination and transcendental dependent arising.
This is from the Upanisa Sutta: "Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply."
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SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
@dharmamom said:
I grew up in a Catholic household and was educated for twelve years in a Catholic school. Can hardly be misinformed about Christianity.
My experience from friends who come from a similar background is that this is about the best way to become "misinformed about Christianity".
Jesus said:
Go and learn what this means, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice."
Matthew 9:13
Yes, self-control is preached in the Epistles (eg Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:9 and Galations 5:23 - combined with gentleness and Peter in 2 Peter 1:6) but this is not the same as self denial. Jesus taught that it is not what is put in to one's mouth that matters but what comes out of it (Mark 7:14-15 and Matthew 15:15-18).
The only reference I can find to self denial in the New Revised Standard Version is in Leviticus 23:29. Christians rejoice in a New Covenant, a promise of love.
@SarahT, believe me, I grew up in a very democratic, free-thinking Catholic environment, and had plenty of education and exposition to the Christian doctrine, also through authors who were not Catholic, like Norman Vincent Peal and Joyce Meyer, to name a couple.
But I chose Buddhism because it has always resonated with me far more than Christianity. And I'm not even sure it was a choice, actually. It's like Buddhism chose me because I've been a Buddhist all my life despite Christian winds blowing all over my environment.
Why have I posted that link on the tradition on Lent and self-denial? Partly because I found the part on self-denial interesting as viewed from a Buddhist perspective, especially because the term was mentioned several times.
And mostly because I've had enough of certain characters trying to use a warped view of Buddhism to justify a deeply personal hysteric and neurotic approach to pleasure and the good things in life.
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I grew up in a similar situation... in fact as many know, it was my good RC mother who introduced me to Buddhism... but I DO get what @SarahT means about religion 'misinforming about Christianity'.... And I think in a whole host of cases, it's probably an accurate observation. You and I @dharmamom, may be the exceptions to the rule....
1
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
A wonderful Rabbi friend of mine conducts marriage services between Jews and non-Jews. He has been thrown out of the so-called "Liberal Association of Rabbis" for doing this. Love, love, love the fact that he is too liberal to be a member of this association!
Anyway, my point is that even he, as a fully observant Jew, preaches that life should be enjoyed. At his ceremonies, he instructs his audience to ignore their doctors and go out and live life to the full.
His interpretation is that the first commandment is to "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). Sounds a good basis for enjoying life to me!
I know this site is not about other spiritual practices but it seems to me that there is wisdom in each and every one of them - usually why they have each survived for so long - and it saddens me to see any wisdom dismissed. I do not consider myself religious. But I do need faith in my life. Yes, for me it happens to be Christianity but when I am shown wisdom in Buddhism, Judaeism, Islam, facebook or wherever, I welcome it with open arms. And I hope the same can be reciprocated.
Grateful to have discovered the exceptions proving the rule that an RC background may give a grounding in "religion", the "doctrine" that has grown up around the New Testament, but rarely seems to have thrown much light on what the NT itself says
Regarding food restrictions in Christianity we have different influences I believe, the biblical one of Jesus who fasted for forty days and Genesis where it is writen that God, having not wanted any crature to die or suffer, initialy made every being a vegetarian including man. Actually it is only writen the last part but the rest is implied. The traditional aspects, like James the brother of Jesus being allegedly a vegetarian. Also maybe the Greek influence since Greek philosophers seemed to have been adepts of vegetarianism.
Finaly I believe there are the practical aspects. Both John Cassian and Aquinas mention the relation between food and lust. Thislast would be a pragmatic approach of the problem.
However I find interesting to find in oriental philosophies and I believe it comes from Buddhism that a person who does not eat natural foods cannot become enlightened. I find this very interesting. If I was able to create topics it would be a question I might put to the forum.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
The discipline of meditation is the only thing that has helped me towards this mastery.
:clap: .
There is always a way in . . .
My way in was partly through martial arts, which is mastering our body and that of others. Martial Arts are a conflict based paradigm. In the higher aspects of training, avoidance and minimum suffering of ones opponent, means either focus on deflection/redirection and/or mind training . . .
Meditation is a life practice, just as being a martial artist is an attitude of constant jihad.
This aspect of overcoming/mastery/change through struggle, needs to be let go of constantly.
Let me offer an illustration: Walking through busy streets one is sometimes aware of people who feel their body space is more worthy of you giving way. Normally I am happy always to give way. Sometimes I reflect their aggressive posture and at the last instant side step and walk on. They had intended to not give way but bump into me. However I have offered them no obstacle, nothing to conflict with. They are left with nothing but their own belligerence.
In a similar way we sometimes try to grab our mind/dukkha/hindrances to overcome or master. If we step aside. Nothing.
Comments
It SHOULD be mandatory, but as I stated, RCs like to move the goalposts. It was once part of doctrine that meat should be abstained from on Fridays (the day Christ died) but then, they let fish in, because a fish has no limbs. (oh, really....?!) Then that rule too, has been relaxed. See, The RC church doesn't want to be seen as overly officious, but it still has 'rules' which would make a mute scream.....
Your links are very interesting, by the way, thank you: particularly the second document, which I will take time to read. So I will not comment on something not yet read, but again, thanks for finding them!
In my country I think some people respected the fasting days but I never noticed since eating an overfilled dish of meat or fish is the same, and I liked both.
Orthodox on the other hand have more serious fasting habits, they go vegan one third of the year. But the Desert Fathers went even further some did absolute fast sevral days a week, others lived only on bread. John Cassian explains that, and he also aknowledges more extreme dietary practices are not suitable to everyone nor excessive days of fasting that can lead to glutony when interrupted.
About the links you are welcome, to be honest though I love the Quest for the Holy Grail from the vulgata cycle I find medieval mysticism too emotional and mentaly deranged.
The link I posted was the transcription of an article dealing with the tradition of fasting and self-denial in the different religious beliefs.
As @federica very rightly pointed out, it is the transcription of an article, therefore someone else's opinion, in the case of Buddhism, a Tibetan lama, not mine.
I posted it because besides dealing with fasting, it mentioned self-denial in passing.
As to being misinformed about Christianity, big mistake.
I grew up in a Catholic household and was educated for twelve years in a Catholic school.
Can hardly be misinformed about Christianity.
It's worth observing that suffering is the connecting link between dependent origination and transcendental dependent arising.
This is from the Upanisa Sutta: "Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply."
My experience from friends who come from a similar background is that this is about the best way to become "misinformed about Christianity".
Jesus said:
Yes, self-control is preached in the Epistles (eg Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:9 and Galations 5:23 - combined with gentleness and Peter in 2 Peter 1:6) but this is not the same as self denial. Jesus taught that it is not what is put in to one's mouth that matters but what comes out of it (Mark 7:14-15 and Matthew 15:15-18).
The only reference I can find to self denial in the New Revised Standard Version is in Leviticus 23:29. Christians rejoice in a New Covenant, a promise of love.
As @SpinyNorman quotes:
Suffering is what makes my faith grow and what has shown me the power of meditation.
In love - Sarah
I grew up in a Catholic household and was educated for twelve years in a Catholic school. Can hardly be misinformed about Christianity.
>
I had to read this a couple of times, before coming to the conclusion that you may just have a point....
.
@SarahT, believe me, I grew up in a very democratic, free-thinking Catholic environment, and had plenty of education and exposition to the Christian doctrine, also through authors who were not Catholic, like Norman Vincent Peal and Joyce Meyer, to name a couple.
But I chose Buddhism because it has always resonated with me far more than Christianity. And I'm not even sure it was a choice, actually. It's like Buddhism chose me because I've been a Buddhist all my life despite Christian winds blowing all over my environment.
Why have I posted that link on the tradition on Lent and self-denial? Partly because I found the part on self-denial interesting as viewed from a Buddhist perspective, especially because the term was mentioned several times.
And mostly because I've had enough of certain characters trying to use a warped view of Buddhism to justify a deeply personal hysteric and neurotic approach to pleasure and the good things in life.
I grew up in a similar situation... in fact as many know, it was my good RC mother who introduced me to Buddhism... but I DO get what @SarahT means about religion 'misinforming about Christianity'.... And I think in a whole host of cases, it's probably an accurate observation. You and I @dharmamom, may be the exceptions to the rule....
A wonderful Rabbi friend of mine conducts marriage services between Jews and non-Jews. He has been thrown out of the so-called "Liberal Association of Rabbis" for doing this. Love, love, love the fact that he is too liberal to be a member of this association!
Anyway, my point is that even he, as a fully observant Jew, preaches that life should be enjoyed. At his ceremonies, he instructs his audience to ignore their doctors and go out and live life to the full.
His interpretation is that the first commandment is to "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). Sounds a good basis for enjoying life to me!
I know this site is not about other spiritual practices but it seems to me that there is wisdom in each and every one of them - usually why they have each survived for so long - and it saddens me to see any wisdom dismissed. I do not consider myself religious. But I do need faith in my life. Yes, for me it happens to be Christianity but when I am shown wisdom in Buddhism, Judaeism, Islam, facebook or wherever, I welcome it with open arms. And I hope the same can be reciprocated.
Grateful to have discovered the exceptions proving the rule that an RC background may give a grounding in "religion", the "doctrine" that has grown up around the New Testament, but rarely seems to have thrown much light on what the NT itself says
In love - Sarah
Regarding food restrictions in Christianity we have different influences I believe, the biblical one of Jesus who fasted for forty days and Genesis where it is writen that God, having not wanted any crature to die or suffer, initialy made every being a vegetarian including man. Actually it is only writen the last part but the rest is implied. The traditional aspects, like James the brother of Jesus being allegedly a vegetarian. Also maybe the Greek influence since Greek philosophers seemed to have been adepts of vegetarianism.
Finaly I believe there are the practical aspects. Both John Cassian and Aquinas mention the relation between food and lust. Thislast would be a pragmatic approach of the problem.
However I find interesting to find in oriental philosophies and I believe it comes from Buddhism that a person who does not eat natural foods cannot become enlightened. I find this very interesting. If I was able to create topics it would be a question I might put to the forum.
Why can't you create a topic?
Sorry I didn't notice I could.
Good, I see you have. I thought for a moment we had a technical glitch.....
Just found this quotation, which seems to have relevant wisdom in it to me:
but in the mastery of hardships. ~ Helen Keller
The discipline of meditation is the only thing that has helped me towards this mastery.
:clap: .
There is always a way in . . .
My way in was partly through martial arts, which is mastering our body and that of others. Martial Arts are a conflict based paradigm. In the higher aspects of training, avoidance and minimum suffering of ones opponent, means either focus on deflection/redirection and/or mind training . . .
Meditation is a life practice, just as being a martial artist is an attitude of constant jihad.
This aspect of overcoming/mastery/change through struggle, needs to be let go of constantly.
Let me offer an illustration: Walking through busy streets one is sometimes aware of people who feel their body space is more worthy of you giving way. Normally I am happy always to give way. Sometimes I reflect their aggressive posture and at the last instant side step and walk on. They had intended to not give way but bump into me. However I have offered them no obstacle, nothing to conflict with. They are left with nothing but their own belligerence.
In a similar way we sometimes try to grab our mind/dukkha/hindrances to overcome or master. If we step aside. Nothing.
Hope that is helpful
:wave: .