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Current conflict Israel
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@Jason, I'd be very interested in reading nonbiased material about Hamas. You're right, what I have dug up (and dug around quite a bit) is quite of the opinion Hamas is a terrorist group that obtained clout as a political party.
Before I 'dug in' to do some of my own looking, I was firmly against Israel's control of Gaza's airspace/land and water access, and wondering along with the rest, "So how can they say they AREN'T occupying Gaza?" It is a humiliating thing to a proud people to have their electricity and clean water under the control of their historical enemy, and I blame Israel for that. The fact that the home-made bombs of Hamas have killed a relative handful of Israelis compared to the US manufactured and funded armaments Israel uses to kill Palestinians is an atrocity. So I see your point that it is 'good' for Hamas in more ways than simply to put Hamas 'back in the great game'.
I just can't imagine CARING what good Hamas has done in the face of how they use the Gazan civilians. The way they treat the people in desperate times says more to me about the fundamentals that guide them -- never mind this or that benefit they have produced in the past. Of course I don't KNOW what good Hamas as done, so I can't speak to it very well. A person can dress their baby in the finest clothes and feed it until it is roly poly with fat but spank the baby a la Michael Pearl with a piece of plumbing pipe -- it's the latter that says far more about the intentions because during adversity are any of us stressed to the point we PRIORITIZE ruthlessly. That old saying that you know who your friends really are during adversity seems quite accurate wherever you look, not to mention in one's own life.
The Wikipedia page on Hamas seems fairly balanced...at least as balanced as pretty much any source will be.
It's hard to find 'unbiased' info, but there are academics and journalists out there who are less prone to propagandizing everything and putting things into perspective. Most of the stuff you're going to see on the news or posted online is likely going to be biased one way or the other, however; and it's up to you to research them and separate the wheat from the chaff. As for some of the things you've said about Hamas, they may be true, but I think a lot of it is exaggerated. For example, I don't know how accurate this article is, but it counters some of these assertions, e.g.:
They have some links to back it up from organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, but I can't vouch for their objectivity or accuracy. I've only just skimmed them. Either way, I'm not saying anyone has to care about Hamas. I'm more concerned about the average person living in Gaza caught in the middle of this conflict, and I think this helps people in the west understand why they tend to support Hamas as their only line of defense.
Reading her Facebook page, I hardly see her (Noura Erakat) as unbiased.
I think it is a shame people blame this issue on God. The state of Israel is being erected against both Christian teachings and Orthódox Judaism. Gandhi who also believed in God, even though with a different understanding of God's nature, was also opposed to it and called its creation a "crime against humanity".
The one thing this teaches is how political and financial interests distort religions and use them to their advantage making war and slaughtering people. It has been the history of the world.
A. I never said she was unbiased. (I never said I was, either.) B. Her bias doesn't mean that what she's written isn't true. Biases in and of themselves aren't necessarily bad things. As I've mentioned before, to have a bias is to essentially make a distinction. We all our have own biases, such as what views we have and what we based those views on. Instead of eschewing our biases, I think it's better (and more realistic) to try to be open-minded about things while also being as rigorous as possible in forming our biases, making sure that our sources are reliable. Why not tackle the reports from AI and HRW rather than simply accusing the author of having a bias?
"Accusing" her of bias makes it sound so negative. I'm not doing that. She's clearly an intelligent, well-educated professional person...with a bias. Bias is natural...we all have biases...but they're still biases. And you said you didn't know how accurate the article was, and I'm simply pointing out that the author of the article has a very clear POV.
Well, to be honest, the way you worded it makes it seem negative to me. Out of everything I wrote (like, "Most of the stuff you're going to see on the news or posted online is likely going to be biased one way or the other, however; and it's up to you to research them and separate the wheat from the chaff") and what the excerpt said, all you responded with was, "Reading her Facebook page, I hardly see her (Noura Erakat) as unbiased." In that context, it seems more dismissive to me than anything.
Most of what others have written really resonates with me, here. And maybe it is all about bias. Nicest name I ever heard was "Pleasant Byas." Unforgettable name and a very nice paradigm for hospitality.
I privately got so fed up with several of my family members recently, including a sister who just got back from her first trip to what she calls "the Holy Land." All the e-mails about how close they were at points during the day to a bomb shelter, etc. --twice daily sometimes-- were just so much drama. I was lucky that they were sent to my land-based account and I could only reply with some difficulty from my computer downstairs!
I think we need to change the hearts and minds of people so that they StoP thinking that "precious" way about such egregiously disputed territories. (I realize that's asking a lot to expect people will be able to suspend their idolatries, superstitions, and hero cults.)
Boycott Israel, Israeli goods, and take it off reputable lists of places either to travel or make pilgrimmages to. Santiago de Compostela would be a much more profitable sojourn for a Christian, for one. Certainly some NGO could sponsor such a boycott.??
Ah, there we go . . . hiding armaments in schools and hospitals is propaganda I just sort of 'bought'. But international humanitarian groups have investigated this both in Lebanon and Gaza, and found it to be false.
Well, Hamsaka, I don't trust ANY organization involved in ANY way to tell the truth about what is happening in the ME. Human Rights Watch has been accused of being bias in favor of the Arab cause based on large contributions from Saudis. I have no idea the truth of that.
But I am to the point I believe nothing that anyone says about the ME.
Yes, they have. This doesn't mean, of course, that they never do it (possibly even with the consent of people who want to help). But the claims of such are likely being exaggerated, in my opinion.
I think that's a fair comment.
You should read about history. Since its creation Islam was historicaly more tolerant to Christians and Jews than the opposite. In fact Jews were protected and respected in Islamic countries until Zionists decided to take over the land of the Palestinians. If someone was trying to create a new and independent state inside of your country stealing land and killing your relatives you would probably have a different opinion. Much of the image we have of Islam is a consequence of irresponsible and stupid western policies in the Middle East, and one of the worse was supporting the Zionists.
That's understandable. I suppose HRW could accept large monetary contributions from Saudis AND 'tell it like it is' -- once. Then no one would capable of making large monetary contributions WOULD lest their own funny business (actual or feared) be exposed. It's similarly difficult to trust statistical assertions, 'research' and so on.
But somewhere in there the 'truth' lurks, maybe with crap smeared on it or a halo
depending upon who you're listening to.
HRW and the like are probably going to give us a clearer picture, just as a third party trying to live up to its own name, than Israel or Hamas. I'm more likely to rest my own bias on their accounts than I am on Israel or Hamas, mostly because my choices are limited.
Excuse me. How the heck can you judge how much history I have read?
And just where would you have put the Jews? Or are you one who believes they had no right to a homeland?
You are correct: "Much of the image we have of Islam is a consequence of irresponsible and stupid western policies in the Middle East." But it is also true that much of the image we have of Islam is a consequence of the actions of groups of Muslims. And how many ethnic groups have suffered the threat of extinction more than the Jews?
I agree with most of what you wrote. But here I disagree. Saying "the truth" implies that there is one truth. There are, IMHO, many truths that are pieces of the puzzle.
That's a tricky question. I mean, if we're going to make an argument from that standpoint, then there are a lot of people who deserve a homeland, from Jews and Palestinians to Native Americans and Tamils. There are plenty of ethnic and religious groups throughout the world who deserve a homeland. And then there's the problem of what to do with the people already living where the proposed homeland will be. Walling them up and bombing them when they get too rambunctious?
I agree. That's why when I see people suggesting the simple response that one side is right or wrong, or that the answers to the various questions involved in the conflict are easy...I just sigh because some of those same people can't remember to put gas in their car, forget to pick up their dry cleaning, or can't remember to change the filter in their furnace.
Similarly, I can't even imagine a solution to the Indian issue in the U.S. ... that will actually "work".
It's why I am not as quick to criticize world leaders and politicians on all the problems they can't solve.
Oh thank goodness, I thought this had turned into "Current confict NewBuddhist.com".
I read somewhere, a comment thrown out by someone in a comment section of an article, that the Ottoman Turks 'sold' the land that later became Israel to the Jews. It turns out there is some 'truth' in that, land was bought and sold, by people who had 'colonized' it out from beneath the native peoples (Palestinians). Gee, what does this remind us of?
But Jewish people have settled and homesteaded in the general area of what was once only Palestine (and now is Israel) for centuries. It's not like one day a bunch of Jewish folks wrote checks for parcels of land and 'bought' Israel . . . or was it?
It's still pretty clear that the Palestinian people had the land they'd lived on for the last couple of millenia 'sold' out from underneath them in so many words. Did they previously 'own' the land they lived on any more or any less than the Native Americans? Could they show up with deeds and titles to stop the 'sale' of 'their' land?
Even from Israel's beginning, it stinks, and so does the country I was born into. But you'd THINK the US would in the very least demonstrate it's contrition (I know, ha ha) on the international scene but NOOOOOOOO, the good ole USA was the lone voice of dissent when the UN human rights council voted to investigate Israel for war crimes. We wipe out the Taliban and Saddam Hussein (ostensibly) to replace them with a nice modern democracy but refuse to spot check Israel, our dear little narcissistic son who can do no wrong.
I thought this was fascinating; Noam Chomsky has compared Israel's treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories as WORSE than South African apartheid ever was.
I would agree with that.
You could put them in the US since they get along just fine with the natives, Palestine is not so big after all you just needed to give the Jews a strip of your country to create an independent state of Israel there and the land would probably be more fertile. And to be honest this shows you haven't read much history, since Palestine was occupied and densely populated prior to the Jews start moving there and expeling the natives.
Jews never faced extinction, and in a great deal thanks to Islamic countries that throughout history gave them shelter when Christians were persecuting both, and they also accepted and protected Christians, unlike the last, and now got the payback I guess. Indian tribes and indigenous from other lands certainly were closer to extinction or even in some cases became extinct.
Actually Wan Min, while overlooking your provocativeness, it would be rather difficult to say who -- historically -- should control the land that was Palestine. The ancient Egyptians, the Canaanites, the Israelites, the Turks, the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Sunnis, the Shia, the Kurds? You could even, I suppose, make the case for the British via the Crusades.
And further, your ridiculous suggestion that the US give a strip of our land -- the Jews probably came out of Canaan, which included land which is now part of Palestinian territory, not out of Maine, or Alabama, or Iowa, or Arizona, or Oregon.
Jews in Yemen have been threatened with extinction, Hitler murdered 6 million of the 9 million Jews in Europe, and Ayatollah Khomeini has repeatedly called for Israel to be wiped off the map and the cities of Tel Aviv and Haifa to be "annihilated".
Of interest to anyone?
@federica, I found the section on exile and dispersion interesting. Although since it is from a Jewish source, I cannot speak to it's objectivity.
Also the "few in number" section is interesting to ponder.
Thanks for posting it. I will read more of it tomorrow morning.
The whole issue is so very, very complex.
If Jews deserved a country of our own because of the Holocaust, why didn't the Roma get one too?
The Jews deserved a country of their own as much as the displaced native denizens in all the other conquered lands. I suspect the United States NEEDED the Jews to have a country of their own, otherwise they wouldn't have the one they do.
Now that our reliance on ME oil is lessening, and trending toward non-oil based sources of power, will the US at some point say "Oh, hey, y'all are right. Sorry Israel, sucks to be you!" you know, kind of like we've done to a number of other regimes we've set up and knocked back down as the need arose . . .
I agree, there is some serious resilience in the collective ethic of the Jew.
What we tell ourselves are stories, and stories are told in retrospect, which means only certain points are re-told and then in changing context with emphasis and de-emphasis of story bits that also shift with the changing context in order to make certain points of the story come forward.
I get it that Jews have survived in spite of 3000 years or so of oppression, genocide, scattering -- but so have many other ethnic groups. Jews aren't the only minority group, but they ARE the only minority group who call themselves God's Chosen People. They strike me as grossly entitled, and that is in spite of my full awareness of the atrocities they've endured. It's just that they are by far not the only peoples who have survived massacres and pogroms.
Simply surviving for so long does not ENTITLE them or anyone to get what they need by doing what was done to them to others, even others who oppressed them in the first place. I get a little nauseated when the victim card gets pulled. If you speak up about the misplaced entitlement, then you are anti-Semetic. No, I'm anti-entitlement, I'm anti-bad behavior. Being Jewish or African American or whoever doesn't exempt you from the shame of being an asshole. Being a historical victim doesn't gift you with special dispensations. If you take it too far, as Israel has, the historical victim has become the contemporary bullying oppressor, that is what always happens with victims who refuse to outgrow victimhood.
The Jews that start occupying Palestine in the 20th century came from Russia, Eastern Europe, Germany, US and many other countries. Jews in Palestine were a minority prior to the occupation. Palestinians have been the indigenous people of the land for many centuries, probably descendents of some of the people you mentioned including Canaanites and Jews. Nevertheless most of the people you name governed the land but they were usualy a rulling minority.
I don't exactly see where you get that idea that the Jews are entitled to Palestine and to expel the people who were there for centuries. Please explain me that?
You don't want them in your country but you believe the Palestinians are entitled to accept them and forsake their territory, and that Egypt should accomodate the Palestinians.
Jews are a religion they spread around the world and migrate they were at some point in the Middle Ages expelled from England and then from Spain and Portugal but that doesn't apply as being extinct since they migrated to other countries. In fact Jews have been extremely numerous throughout history despite of the persecutions.
Ayatollah Komeini is dead for a long time and Islamic hate for Israel was a reaction to the creation of the state of Israel and its invasion of Arab territory. Tell me how would you and Americans in general react if Mexicans start occupying New Mexico, Texas, California, expeling Americans, and wanted to make these independent states. Would you be calling for equanimity? Or for Canadians to lodge the American refugees there?
Just a friendly word: The current conflict in the Middle East, I can do nothing about. Conflict here is much easier for me to manage.
Comments can be made without resorting to jibes, hidden or otherwise.
Hopefully, I need say no more.
Thank you.
@WanMin, in your zeal to put forth your agenda about Israel, you are attempting to paint me as pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian. You are wrong. I am pro-international law. And international law -- faulty as it may always be -- at this point in time, recognizes Israel as a sovereign nation.
When Israel breaks international law -- as in my opinion they have often done -- they should suffer consequences. When Hamas breaks international law -- as in my opinion they have often done -- they should suffer consequences. (And in a karmic sense, they do).
In reality, it is rather useless to attempt to base homelands on historical "ownership", because no one can quite agree on what period of time to stop the clock. Nevertheless, and whether or not you agree with them, there are historical arguments for having a Jewish homeland where it now is. There is no logical historical argument for having a Jewish homeland in the Western Hemisphere, Africa, or Asia. You might be able to make a case for a Jewish homeland in some parts of Europe, again depending on when you want to stop the clock.
I have said before, and will say again, at this point in history I am more sympathetic toward the Palestinian plight than I am toward Israel. But both sides persistently break international law and moral codes. To a large extent they create their own hell on earth...I guess on this forum we would say that's karma.
I am as much for a nation of Palestine as I was for a nation of Israel. And there's the problem -- 2 nations that in my opinion are equally entitled to exist (or equally not entitled to exist) attempting to exist in the same location. As I have said before, albeit in slightly different words -- an unsolvable problem. And every player in the game pushes their pawns -- and make no mistake, the Palestinians and the Jews are both pawns on this chessboard -- around to the chess masters' advantages. And the chess masters pay their karmic price, as well. Unfortunately, the United Nations is just a part of that chessboard.
Vinlyn I understand your point and apologise if I got carried away and got personal about it. It's just that to me the problem is simple: the Jews were expeled by the Romans 19 centuries before Zionists decided to claim the land and also there is an invader and an invaded. Besides as I have researched there are many Orthodox Jews that opose the creation of the state of Israel because of the Three Oaths. According to them from what I understand Israel should be miraculosly formed by the Messiah without violence or effort and untill then they should remain exiled spreading a message of love to mankind.
An Arab family owns a gas station near my house. For years they helped me fix my bicycle. Now I buy their gasoline. I did not know that they had come from Palestine until one day I heard them talking about it. The rage was as visible as it was audible.
I have a Iranian friend, my Persian cutie. He does not seethe with rage like my friends at the gas station, but I know he feels like he's caught in the middle of this conflict because my school has teachers who are immigrants just like him, but they represent the other side.
I think watching the emotions at play even here, where as a Buddhist board it's not like we have a personal stake one side or another, we can see why that little patch of rock, sand and olive trees seems destined to be fought over long as there's people wanting to live there. It's not like the battles only started with the creation of modern Israel.
When I consider the ongoing conflict, I just feel sad and helpless. I hate seeing what the people of Israel are doing to themselves, I hate knowing the conditions the Palestinians have to live under with no real change possible, and I wish the innocent people of both sides were not caught in the middle of two factions that hate each other so much, they simply don't care who they hurt anymore.
There are people on both sides who would be happy to see the entire population of their enemy dead. There are many people on both sides, as well as most people in the world, who just want the fighting to end. But then, I don't care who lays claim to that little patch of dirt. If I lived there, I'd most likely not have the same attitude.
I often think that the best thing that I can do about these representations of the hell realms is to be mindful of the only thing that is within my perview to change for the better.
...Namely trying to be mindful for how my own judgements perpetrate the same underpinning adversarial stances that allow any of these hell realms to continue.
I love that @How. I have no ethnic or religious bone to pick in this war but I definitely see 'human nature at work' with the same maneuvers on the macro scale as the micro. I guess that is the only reason this fascinates me, because it IS so representative of the day to day BS available for purview by any old body who cares to look.
On one hand, you have a flawed tiny democracy surrounded by totalitarian regimes which has on occasion voluntarily given up its own territorial gains in pursuit of an elusive peace. A country invaded no less than 3 times by all of its bordering neighbors. Whatever the merits of its creation, the fact is that it currently exists and reserves the right to continue. A country
On the other hand, you have a known terrorist organization masquerading as a political party. A group whose solely stated purpose is the destruction of Israel. An organization that executes men for the "crime" of homosexuality and has been known to crucify people sentenced to death. An organization that builds tunnels past its neighbor's border so as to kidnap and ransom its citizenry.
For those of you who are gay or of some minority (non-Islamic) faith, which place would you rather live?
Is "neither" a choice?
Horrible, horrible and more horrible!
My heart breaks over this, nonetheless I think picking a side here is wrong. I constantly see people blaming either "group" but the notion that you should support either one to be against the massacre of innocent people is insane IMO. It's sad that this is possible to happen in this world and I hope it doesn't catalyze conflict on global scales....
I doubt Israel counts on any 'peace' with Hamas running the Palestinian government. The evidence is that they continue to remain in strict control (but not occupy! hack hack) of Gazan air space/land and water access, power and clean water. Moving out 8000 Israeli settlers (who owned 40% of the arable land in Gaza) and calling that 'non occupying' insults the world's intelligence. On the other hand, with Hamas as a neighbor, who wouldn't be kinda nervous?
Well, hamas is of zero threat as most of it is bombed to the ground despite what the propaganda war is showing. US is not interfering because this is what they want. They armed israel
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xpa1/v/t42.1790-2/10507717_10152163196151135_1748343992_n.mp4?oh=5d1f2d34f7b34255c4a2b10d2d31cef7&oe=53D69477
I'm wondering for all those who live comfortably in some coastal hovel here in the US, what your reaction would be to living a few miles from a city that continually bombarded your neighborhood with rockets, who kidnapped your neighbors, and who executed its own citizens for homosexuality while your own gay citizenry lived free. How many of you would urge "restraint" and "understanding" and not picking sides?
And of course no one has armed the other side. They make all their weapons out of dirt in their basements.
Precisely @vinlyn!
Everyone's got to get past the point of regarding these lands as desirable. It's not "the" holy land.
The easiest distinction that clears things up is to ask one question: if left completely to their own desires with nothing to deter their power, what would each opposing side do?
For the Israeli side, this is easily answerable since their is no immediate power that can check anything the Israelis wish to do. Aside from international outrage, nothing prevents the Israeli army from razing Gaza and murdering all of its inhabitants. So what prevents them? Primarily because they are a representative democracy that does not espouse genocide as a cornerstone of its policy. A government that would cease all offensive efforts if only its neighbors would seek pursuing violent efforts to destroy it. And a military that takes the greatest pains to avoid civilian casualties.
For the Hamas side? Well we have an organization that wants nothing short of the genocide of its neighbor. A terrorist cabal that uses children and women as human shields, intentionally places civilians in harms way so as to celebrate their deaths and gain international support. Does anyone for a minute believe that Hamas would not murder every last Israeli if it had the power and establish a theocratic regime ala ISIS.
How anyone can support a gangster regime of religious terror over basically a secular democracy lives in a world of moral relativism that I can never understand.
Left to their own devices, Israel blamed Hamas for something they didn't even do by their own admission and razed Gaza, killing mostly civilians. My heroes.
>
I have friends in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Gaza. I have heard firsthand from each of them of what's going on there which is why I say here that unless anyone is LIVING THERE bluntly, you really know sweet FA of what's going on.
Exactly what I was thinking, it would be impossible to not pick sides, especially if one of the sides belonged to me and my children/family.
But the objective point of view is very important, too. I don't have Hamas as a next door neighbor, and I certainly wouldn't tell Israeli citizens what to do or think!
But I am a human being, this is a human problem, and this war isn't the only war that will affect my species. What I have to say here on this forum means diddly squat on any level relevant to those who are living (hopefully) through this war, and it never occurred to me to even dream I had anything remotely relevant to say to them. This war affects us all and to that level of experience, we all have something to say and it does good to discuss it amongst ourselves, if nothing else to challenge our own presuppositions and prejudices. If no one but the people directly experiencing this have the right to discuss this there wouldn't be a hope of anything remotely redeeming to come out of it.
Hardly, if you compare the civilian dead of Palestine against that of Israel.
There is a lot of propaganda in this last bit, and I was bought into it for a while there, too. The emotional extremity of your statement is the first clue. I am not in love with Hamas and them being a branch off of the ole Muslim Brotherhood tree is enough info for me to know they deserve no pity. And if you clean up the propaganda from the Israeli side, their military and leaders deserve no more.
If I'm going to pick sides, it's with the civilians of both governments who don't have a choice in this.