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Although preventing ISIS from forcing their goals might very well require guns blazing. And yes, there are certainly tons of things that could go wrong...but I'm not sure it would be more wrong than the way it is going now.
0
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
The difficulty of delivering solutions is the inability to target the central problem -- the central problem lies within the perspective of individuals. They can be forced and stopped but what drives them isn't something that CAN be addressed, except by the individual.
An analogy is you have a person who is very irritable, quick to anger and physical violence when angered. Clearly this person needs to get a grip on their anger management issue.
If the person with the anger problem AGREES they have a problem, recognize the consequences as being bad for their loved ones and themselves, great, you have a solution. If the angry person feels entitled to their angry displays, feels justified in them, there is no solution except to get away from them, get out of their line of fire depending on how dangerous they are.
The groups in the current conflict believe they are ultimately justified, by Allah or God. They believe they are entitled to do whatever it takes. Murder is a means to an end, and the means can be whatever they choose.
It's pretty f*cked up.
Check out the human interactions among your family and friends. You see hints and flashes of the same human dynamic in arguments at work. It sure does show itself at both a micro and macro level -- an individual 'self' as well as a collective 'self'.
Long term solutions including the eradication of ignorance (aka evil) take centuries. Advanced alternatives such as the http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Earth_Battalion
are possible for Buddhists to help set up, train in and join.
For now we can step up our ripple effect, which personally does not include waving fingers or bombs at any demonic evil imaginings.
The army of peaceable dervishes, may help our fine efforts. Doing something may inspire us. Personally I am inspired to continue with doing Nothing.
Time to join the elite forces of whirling dervishes . . .
Too hard eh?
Sadhguru said "There is no good or evil wars, just people fighting about beliefs"
He also said that the people fighting truly believe in what they are doing. They risk their lives for their beliefs.
I'm going to upset a lot of people here and say. Don't get involved if it's out of ignorance. Which any violence is. The soldiers we send over suffer. They cause suffering. The pass the suffering on.
My theory is the ONLY way we can do anything is by spiritual awakening. If everybody turned inward we wouldn't have a problem.
Goenka said :" being a buddhist does not mean your a vegetable waiting to be cut"
But he further said that you should never try and change anyone. You can't. You can only change yourself
If we fight then it's another war of total suffering. Everybody suffers.
In the Doa Te Ching it is said that only as an ultimate final option to take up arms, and when you do do so like your going to your own family members funeral.
War is terrible, it's absolute human ignorance that causes it. I know of a solution to ignorance but I can't make people do it...
Very very hard topic. A solution to this war? I don't think there is one I'm afraid. Just help the people who don't want to fight I guess.
May all beings be free from suffering!
1
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
edited August 2014
Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Such understanding takes two. If one side is determined that it and only it is right, has no respect for the other, peace just ain't gonna happen. But I don't have to let that destroy my inner peace.
how can the Buddha's path to suffering's cessation help those who face terrible people wishing them great harm?
It seems to me that the only way to help such people is to show them how to avoid suffering. Whether their lives or the lives of those they love can be saved, I don't know. But there is a way to avoid suffering whatever the circumstances - the way taught by the Buddha. Others have found it through other routes but, as far as I can see from my understanding of Buddhism so far, it all comes down to the same principles - compassion, the discipline of meditation, integrity, growth etc.
I can feel compassion towards individual members of an institution - be it IS, the PLO, whoever - without feeling compasson towards that institution itself. To me, it is right to feel anger towards any institution that oppresses others. My understanding is that the urge to "flock", to become subsumed within an institution, is a stress response. Stress relief? The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha.
For me, it's a question of walking the walk. That's pretty much all I can do. I can't make anyone else see how my suffering is alleviated or make them choose to alleviate their own suffering if they don't want to. But I can give them the option by maintaining my inner peace and hoping it will shine through.
1
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
Amazing how often I post something somewhere and then find an email that seems directly relevant. In this case, it is the following:
Do not wait until some deed of greatness you may do,
Do not wait to shed your light afar;
To the many duties ever near you now be true,
Brighten the corner where you are.
Brighten the corner where you are!
Brighten the corner where you are!
Someone far from harbor you may guide across the bar;
Brighten the corner where you are!
Just above are clouded skies that you may help to clear,
Let not narrow self your way debar;
Though into one heart alone may fall your song of cheer,
Brighten the corner where you are.
Brighten the corner where you are!
Brighten the corner where you are!
Someone far from harbor you may guide across the bar;
Brighten the corner where you are!
Here for all your talent you may surely find a need,
Here reflect the bright and Morning Star;
Even from your humble hand the Bread of Life may feed,
Brighten the corner where you are.
Brighten the corner where you are!
Brighten the corner where you are!
Someone far from harbor you may guide across the bar;
Brighten the corner where you are!
As a former soldier I can see the value of limited fire missions to destroy the heavy artillery and mortars from former Iraqi army depots. The humanitarian mission is more complex. The medical needs of the wounded will require the efforts of more than the US. As well as the security issues to establish a safe haven.
It is my understanding that one of the targeted groups are polytheists. That adds an added dimension to the security issues. They are more likely to be killed than Christians which are people of the book.
To go in with guns blazing is more a long term strategic solution. Which would be counter productive.
Actually, I do have a serious thought on this matter. I just came back online after a move to a marvelous luxury home equipped with running water AND electricity. However, prior to the move I lived across the yard from my mentally ill landlady who a few months ago decided that she no longer needed to take her psych meds. It was about the same time she moved her daughter, daughter's boyfriend and grandchild to the property. The grandchild is not allowed to speak to us and the landlady's daughter simply opted not to - never responding to our greetings for three months.
The boyfriend has spoken to us though. At best, passive-aggressive but usually insulting, sneers, jeers and always hostile. Three days before we moved he offered to take me into the woods and kill me while playing with his balisong and striking an intimidating pose. We're very rural and on 60 acres.
I walked away. If necessary, I would have run. People can get hurt in such altercations. Three days later I discovered keystroke for keystroke spyware on my computer, installed thirteen days earlier when I took my wife to he bus station so she could go see her dying father. We begin moving. It's slow; the heat and my disability prevent me from doing too much. We went back to get the last load and my cat. The cat is dead - a bullet through its head.
I think, if anyone asked me what to do in this Middle East situation, I would suggest that they do the same. Help everyone who is willing to run away to do just that. Get the countries together who are willing to offer sanctuary to refugees and divide up the population. Those who insist on staying and dying are welcome to their choice.
By removing the population, you remove the infrastructure. Without an infrastructure, you spend your days finding water and food and there is a lot less time, energy and other resources left to built bombs and kill. Besides, all the people they wanted to kill have either chosen to leave by then or are a diminishing 'resource' for their hate.
Whatever the people leave behind is just stuff - lives would be saved.
By removing the population, you remove the infrastructure. Without an infrastructure, you spend your days finding water and food and there is a lot less time, energy and other resources left to built bombs and kill. Besides, all the people they wanted to kill have either chosen to leave by then or are a diminishing 'resource' for their hate.
Whatever the people leave behind is just stuff - lives would be saved.
But even such a humanitarian impulse requires a massive undertaking that only a large military force could assist in. Even if you were to desire the evacuation of innocents and no one else, only an army could accomplish replete with gunships and close air support. Something that would make the Berlin airlift and evacuation of Saigon look like child's play. We are talking potentially millions of refugees that are defenseless in the face of the IS onslaught.
@Frozen_Paratrooper - clearly your are right in that it would require a massive military presence. But there is a chance that it actually ends it and does so with minimal loss of life, and minimal financial resources compared to an otherwise intractable problem that will continue (perhaps hopping imaginary border lines occasionally) for decades. Fifty-six million refugees found new homes during the Indochina crisis. My home town of 100,000 received 30,000 of them in two years. I think we both have military backgrounds and so I am going to guess that you have some idea of the logistics of such a move in the middle east - but it beats working out the logistics of explaining to some young widow in Kansas why her husband isn't coming home again some Spring morning in 2032.
@vinlyn - I agree. I suggest only giving them the option of leaving their own homes. If they choose to leave, we help. They chose to stay, we accept their right to do so.
There seems to be a third option. According to youtube, "Sheik Ahmed" living in Sweden on wellfare, says, that people can choose to convert, leave their homes or pay tribute to IS.
But then he also threatens all Swedes and Europeans to believe in Allah or prepare to fight. No third option there...
Sorry found no English translation. Please bear in mind that there is no way to validate these claims.
I think the Arab League has a lot of soul-searching to do here.
I think there should be a World Muslim Council of some sort gathering somewhere in the world and seriously redefining what the main points of their religion are, what belongs in their dogma and beliefs, and what should/should not be considered as a Muslim Ethos and conduct.
If Islam is a religion of love and peace, people who adhere to an ISIS, an Al-Qaeda and a Hamas simply should have no right to call themselves Muslim.
Claiming that you are entitled to kill anyone who does not agree with your beliefs in the name of God, threatening with a Jihad every time someone makes a cartoon of Mohammed, beheading a Christian child and feeding him to the dogs, do not belong in a religion of love and peace.
This is a case of "dirty laundry between four walls." It is for the Muslims to do their dirty laundry at home, and for the world to find whatever solution stops the massacre when the domestic problem is carried beyond their four walls.
What can we do as Buddhists? Work on ourselves, and spread Buddhism with our example.
And basically, spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism...
Let's outnumber hatred with a real example of peace and loving-kindness.
@Frozen_Paratrooper said:
This begs the question, for those of us who champion secular human rights, what is to be done in the face of such implacable evil?
Join organisations that champion human rights, make donations to organisations that are providing humanitarian belief. Beyond that I'm not sure.
What can we do as Buddhists? Work on ourselves, and spread Buddhism with our example.
And basically, spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism...
Let's outnumber hatred with a real example of peace and loving-kindness.
True. It is really difficult to find a solution to every possible problems under the sky.
Ideals are great and grand. But I've yet to meet the person whose idealism fails to fly out the window when they encounter ideas or persons they don't understand.
@DhammaDragon said:
I think the Arab League has a lot of soul-searching to do here.
I think there should be a World Muslim Council of some sort gathering somewhere in the world and seriously redefining what the main points of their religion are, what belongs in their dogma and beliefs, and what should/should not be considered as a Muslim Ethos and conduct.
If Islam is a religion of love and peace, people who adhere to an ISIS, an Al-Qaeda and a Hamas simply should have no right to call themselves Muslim.
Claiming that you are entitled to kill anyone who does not agree with your beliefs in the name of God, threatening with a Jihad every time someone makes a cartoon of Mohammed, beheading a Christian child and feeding him to the dogs, do not belong in a religion of love and peace.
This is a case of "dirty laundry between four walls." It is for the Muslims to do their dirty laundry at home, and for the world to find whatever solution stops the massacre when the domestic problem is carried beyond their four walls.
What can we do as Buddhists? Work on ourselves, and spread Buddhism with our example.
And basically, spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism...
Let's outnumber hatred with a real example of peace and loving-kindness.
I agree with your suggestions for the Muslim world.
I heartily disagree with your comment to "spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism"...at least as written, sounds like you're suggesting evangelizing, which to me is a very un-Buddhist concept. Perhaps I'm reading something into your post that's not there. Could you clarify?
0
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
Good point, it doesn't seem possible to 'spread' Buddhism.
@Victorious said:
The Dhamma is there to solve the problems of the Self.
It is not there to solve the problems of the World.
I think that is -- generally -- very good advice. Some Buddhist principles would make a better world, but thinking that "we" can get the whole world to adopt such thinking is unrealistic.
May I suggest, as the emotional aspect of this thread is reflecting the reality of the conflict, that we all just breathe, and remember that children and women and men have died in this conflict. Forget not the inner and outer elements of your being. How can you deal with this? compassion! This is the buddhist path after all.
3
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
edited August 2014
@Hamsaka said:
Good point, it doesn't seem possible to 'spread' Buddhism.
Spreading a way of being need not require "evangelism". OK, it may be slow, but it is possible to practice attraction and not promotion.
I am attracted to Buddhism not only by curiosity but by seeing that it works - for people with all sorts of backgrounds. Accepting the four truths does not require abandoning other beliefs such as Islam, Christianity or Judaeism (see the Dalai Lama in The Art of Happiness). The more I show compassion, the less I suffer. I respect others enough to think that they would also prefer not to suffer and seek a way to achieve that. Isn't acting by example, "walking the walk", my contribution - as well as the immediate benefits to me?
6
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
edited August 2014
REFLECTION FOR TODAY
It has been said, “As a man thinketh in his heart, so he is.” This is why a
hostile man lives in a hostile world and a loving man lives in a loving
world. It is the same world – it is how I perceive it that counts. I have
a choice, and herein lies my accountability. It has also been said, “As a
man sows, so shall he reap.” I must realize that thinking, feeling, or
acting negatively begets negative results. What I put out, I shall receive.
The effects of my words and acts have a profound impact in my world, and on
others as well as myself.
MEDITATION FOR TODAY
May [I] radiate calmness, trust, generosity, truth,
justice, forgiveness, acceptance, and love.
TODAY I WILL REMEMBER
Happiness and good come to me in their highest form, not because I seek to
absorb it, but rather, because I seek to radiate it.
@Victorious said:
The Dhamma is there to solve the problems of the Self.
It is not there to solve the problems of the World.
I was hoping to be contended a little bit more...
vinlyn is right. This is generally right. But the Buddha himself stopped wars. And there is a distinct dhamma for laypeople that is not intent on nibbana. And there are suttas that describe how a nation may achieve success...
So maybe not as clearcut as I promoted.
/Victor
0
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@lobster, if I read "we haz [plan]..." again, I'm going to throttle you..... and believe me, I could just do it....! We get the cushions. fine. But enough already of the childish blather....
@federica said:
lobster, if I read "we haz [plan]..." again, I'm going to throttle you..... and believe me, I could just do it....! We get the cushions. fine. But enough already of the childish blather....
federica haz plan! :clap:
4
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I'm going to throttle you..... and believe me, I could just do it....!
Indeed.
That is precisely what this thread is about. Not liking something. Labelling it and having the power to 'implement a solution'. Are you being evil? Of course not . . . must be me then being worthy of throttling . . .
I suppose the buck starts with examination of our potential . . . :scratch: .
The solution is us learning to accept that while we should do what ever we can to ease sufferings cause, the manifestation of such a possibility lies ultimately in the hands of each individual.
The solution is seeing that the first noble truth is true and that not having a solution to everyone's immediate suffering is part of that truth.
The solution is accepting that this suffering is what brought all of us closer to the solution that we might never have otherwise been interested in. That if another being could have resolved some of the sufferings that brought you to your present practice, would you have preferred such a life if it meant never experiencing such a practice?
Just because we don't like a solution, doesn't make it not the solution.
3
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@SarahT said:
I am attracted to Buddhism not only by curiosity but by seeing that it works - for people with all sorts of backgrounds. Accepting the four truths does not require abandoning other beliefs such as Islam, Christianity or Judaeism (see the Dalai Lama in The Art of Happiness). The more I show compassion, the less I suffer. I respect others enough to think that they would also prefer not to suffer and seek a way to achieve that. Isn't acting by example, "walking the walk", my contribution - as well as the immediate benefits to me?
Oh definitely!
When my Christian friend and I were just getting to know each other, we got to the point where she asked me if I went to church or whatever. I told her no, I'm more a Buddhist than anything else. She said "That's interesting because you are one of the most 'christian' people I know.' I took that as one of the top five life compliments I'll probably get this time around.
3
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@SpinyNorman said:
I thought the thread was about not having the power to implement a solution?
It is very tough to avoid concrete thinking in the face of so much suffering. Solutions versus no solutions is a variation of black and white thinking.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Hell @SpinyNorman, if it was that simple... wouldn't it be implemented by now? And sadly, those able to come to some kind of positive conclusion,a ren't sitting round the table that matters... furthermore, you can bet your bottom dollar - quite literally - that there's more at stake here than just stopping the bad guys and helping the good guys. Politics, diplomacy, world finance.....
In a way it's like a married couple who get to the point of irreconcilable differences, divorce, but due to alimony and the children cannot totally walk away from each other. There are relationships involved, whether they like it, or not.
@federica said:
Hell SpinyNorman, if it was that simple... wouldn't it be implemented by now? And sadly, those able to come to some kind of positive conclusion,a ren't sitting round the table that matters... furthermore, you can bet your bottom dollar - quite literally - that there's more at stake here than just stopping the bad guys and helping the good guys. Politics, diplomacy, world finance.....
That too. But there are a lot of solutions that could really work but is not viable because nobody will touch them. For instance.
Outlaw war. Institute a international police to enforce and a court to settle matters of conflict maybe through some regulated competition. Say football or chess.
Anybody breaking the ban gets deported to Australia...(just kiddin).
See that would solve the problem but how to implement this?
@Victorious said:
That too. But there are a lot of solutions that could really work but is not viable because nobody will touch them. For instance.
Outlaw war. Institute a international police to enforce and a court to settle matters of conflict maybe through some regulated competition. Say football or chess.
Anybody breaking the ban gets deported to Australia...(just kiddin).
See that would solve the problem but how to implement this?
Look up the Kellogg-Briand act. We have outlawed war before with the League of Nations established as the adjudicating body to regulate competition. That was in the 1920s. And Japan, Germany, and the Soviet Union declared war on neighbors anyway and either left the club or were kicked out.
And besides, ISIS views non-Islamic governments as illegitimate anyway so they'd simply ignore it.
There is no one solution to this genocide. There are simply multiple choices that are all varying degrees of awful. Either let genocide happen unchecked or bomb the offenders and attempts to evacuate victims. Both choices will lead to massive death tolls. The debate is which is less awful.
Comments
It's an interesting idea. I can think of a hundred ways it could go wrong, but it's certainly better than simply 'let's go in with guns blazing.'
Although preventing ISIS from forcing their goals might very well require guns blazing. And yes, there are certainly tons of things that could go wrong...but I'm not sure it would be more wrong than the way it is going now.
The difficulty of delivering solutions is the inability to target the central problem -- the central problem lies within the perspective of individuals. They can be forced and stopped but what drives them isn't something that CAN be addressed, except by the individual.
An analogy is you have a person who is very irritable, quick to anger and physical violence when angered. Clearly this person needs to get a grip on their anger management issue.
If the person with the anger problem AGREES they have a problem, recognize the consequences as being bad for their loved ones and themselves, great, you have a solution. If the angry person feels entitled to their angry displays, feels justified in them, there is no solution except to get away from them, get out of their line of fire depending on how dangerous they are.
The groups in the current conflict believe they are ultimately justified, by Allah or God. They believe they are entitled to do whatever it takes. Murder is a means to an end, and the means can be whatever they choose.
It's pretty f*cked up.
Check out the human interactions among your family and friends. You see hints and flashes of the same human dynamic in arguments at work. It sure does show itself at both a micro and macro level -- an individual 'self' as well as a collective 'self'.
Long term solutions including the eradication of ignorance (aka evil) take centuries. Advanced alternatives such as the
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Earth_Battalion
are possible for Buddhists to help set up, train in and join.
For now we can step up our ripple effect, which personally does not include waving fingers or bombs at any demonic evil imaginings.
The army of peaceable dervishes, may help our fine efforts. Doing something may inspire us. Personally I am inspired to continue with doing Nothing.
Time to join the elite forces of whirling dervishes . . .
Too hard eh?
http://sufism.org/lineage/sufism
Sadhguru said "There is no good or evil wars, just people fighting about beliefs"
He also said that the people fighting truly believe in what they are doing. They risk their lives for their beliefs.
I'm going to upset a lot of people here and say. Don't get involved if it's out of ignorance. Which any violence is. The soldiers we send over suffer. They cause suffering. The pass the suffering on.
My theory is the ONLY way we can do anything is by spiritual awakening. If everybody turned inward we wouldn't have a problem.
Goenka said :" being a buddhist does not mean your a vegetable waiting to be cut"
But he further said that you should never try and change anyone. You can't. You can only change yourself
If we fight then it's another war of total suffering. Everybody suffers.
In the Doa Te Ching it is said that only as an ultimate final option to take up arms, and when you do do so like your going to your own family members funeral.
War is terrible, it's absolute human ignorance that causes it. I know of a solution to ignorance but I can't make people do it...
Very very hard topic. A solution to this war? I don't think there is one I'm afraid. Just help the people who don't want to fight I guess.
May all beings be free from suffering!
Such understanding takes two. If one side is determined that it and only it is right, has no respect for the other, peace just ain't gonna happen. But I don't have to let that destroy my inner peace.
@Frozen_Paratrooper asks:
It seems to me that the only way to help such people is to show them how to avoid suffering. Whether their lives or the lives of those they love can be saved, I don't know. But there is a way to avoid suffering whatever the circumstances - the way taught by the Buddha. Others have found it through other routes but, as far as I can see from my understanding of Buddhism so far, it all comes down to the same principles - compassion, the discipline of meditation, integrity, growth etc.
I can feel compassion towards individual members of an institution - be it IS, the PLO, whoever - without feeling compasson towards that institution itself. To me, it is right to feel anger towards any institution that oppresses others. My understanding is that the urge to "flock", to become subsumed within an institution, is a stress response. Stress relief? The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha.
For me, it's a question of walking the walk. That's pretty much all I can do. I can't make anyone else see how my suffering is alleviated or make them choose to alleviate their own suffering if they don't want to. But I can give them the option by maintaining my inner peace and hoping it will shine through.
Amazing how often I post something somewhere and then find an email that seems directly relevant. In this case, it is the following:
Do not wait to shed your light afar;
To the many duties ever near you now be true,
Brighten the corner where you are.
Brighten the corner where you are!
Someone far from harbor you may guide across the bar;
Brighten the corner where you are!
Let not narrow self your way debar;
Though into one heart alone may fall your song of cheer,
Brighten the corner where you are.
Brighten the corner where you are!
Someone far from harbor you may guide across the bar;
Brighten the corner where you are!
Here reflect the bright and Morning Star;
Even from your humble hand the Bread of Life may feed,
Brighten the corner where you are.
Brighten the corner where you are!
Someone far from harbor you may guide across the bar;
Brighten the corner where you are!
As a former soldier I can see the value of limited fire missions to destroy the heavy artillery and mortars from former Iraqi army depots. The humanitarian mission is more complex. The medical needs of the wounded will require the efforts of more than the US. As well as the security issues to establish a safe haven.
It is my understanding that one of the targeted groups are polytheists. That adds an added dimension to the security issues. They are more likely to be killed than Christians which are people of the book.
To go in with guns blazing is more a long term strategic solution. Which would be counter productive.
...well, not all of us.
...well, not all of us.
Certainly not the dyslexics!
Actually, I do have a serious thought on this matter. I just came back online after a move to a marvelous luxury home equipped with running water AND electricity.
However, prior to the move I lived across the yard from my mentally ill landlady who a few months ago decided that she no longer needed to take her psych meds. It was about the same time she moved her daughter, daughter's boyfriend and grandchild to the property. The grandchild is not allowed to speak to us and the landlady's daughter simply opted not to - never responding to our greetings for three months.
The boyfriend has spoken to us though. At best, passive-aggressive but usually insulting, sneers, jeers and always hostile. Three days before we moved he offered to take me into the woods and kill me while playing with his balisong and striking an intimidating pose. We're very rural and on 60 acres.
I walked away. If necessary, I would have run. People can get hurt in such altercations. Three days later I discovered keystroke for keystroke spyware on my computer, installed thirteen days earlier when I took my wife to he bus station so she could go see her dying father. We begin moving. It's slow; the heat and my disability prevent me from doing too much. We went back to get the last load and my cat. The cat is dead - a bullet through its head.
I think, if anyone asked me what to do in this Middle East situation, I would suggest that they do the same. Help everyone who is willing to run away to do just that. Get the countries together who are willing to offer sanctuary to refugees and divide up the population. Those who insist on staying and dying are welcome to their choice.
By removing the population, you remove the infrastructure. Without an infrastructure, you spend your days finding water and food and there is a lot less time, energy and other resources left to built bombs and kill. Besides, all the people they wanted to kill have either chosen to leave by then or are a diminishing 'resource' for their hate.
Whatever the people leave behind is just stuff - lives would be saved.
But even such a humanitarian impulse requires a massive undertaking that only a large military force could assist in. Even if you were to desire the evacuation of innocents and no one else, only an army could accomplish replete with gunships and close air support. Something that would make the Berlin airlift and evacuation of Saigon look like child's play. We are talking potentially millions of refugees that are defenseless in the face of the IS onslaught.
I'm not sure it's humanitarian to deny people the ability to live in their own homes.
I'm not well versed in military matters, but I'd get behind a coalition of countries putting together military and resources to help refugees get out.
We could make it quite difficult to strap children with bombs and send them aboard the rescue craft.
@Frozen_Paratrooper - clearly your are right in that it would require a massive military presence. But there is a chance that it actually ends it and does so with minimal loss of life, and minimal financial resources compared to an otherwise intractable problem that will continue (perhaps hopping imaginary border lines occasionally) for decades. Fifty-six million refugees found new homes during the Indochina crisis. My home town of 100,000 received 30,000 of them in two years. I think we both have military backgrounds and so I am going to guess that you have some idea of the logistics of such a move in the middle east - but it beats working out the logistics of explaining to some young widow in Kansas why her husband isn't coming home again some Spring morning in 2032.
@vinlyn - I agree. I suggest only giving them the option of leaving their own homes. If they choose to leave, we help. They chose to stay, we accept their right to do so.
There seems to be a third option. According to youtube, "Sheik Ahmed" living in Sweden on wellfare, says, that people can choose to convert, leave their homes or pay tribute to IS.
But then he also threatens all Swedes and Europeans to believe in Allah or prepare to fight. No third option there...
Sorry found no English translation. Please bear in mind that there is no way to validate these claims.
/Victor
I think the Arab League has a lot of soul-searching to do here.
I think there should be a World Muslim Council of some sort gathering somewhere in the world and seriously redefining what the main points of their religion are, what belongs in their dogma and beliefs, and what should/should not be considered as a Muslim Ethos and conduct.
If Islam is a religion of love and peace, people who adhere to an ISIS, an Al-Qaeda and a Hamas simply should have no right to call themselves Muslim.
Claiming that you are entitled to kill anyone who does not agree with your beliefs in the name of God, threatening with a Jihad every time someone makes a cartoon of Mohammed, beheading a Christian child and feeding him to the dogs, do not belong in a religion of love and peace.
This is a case of "dirty laundry between four walls." It is for the Muslims to do their dirty laundry at home, and for the world to find whatever solution stops the massacre when the domestic problem is carried beyond their four walls.
What can we do as Buddhists? Work on ourselves, and spread Buddhism with our example.
And basically, spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism...
Let's outnumber hatred with a real example of peace and loving-kindness.
Join organisations that champion human rights, make donations to organisations that are providing humanitarian belief. Beyond that I'm not sure.
We haz plan! :clap: .
@DhammaDragon,
True. It is really difficult to find a solution to every possible problems under the sky.
Ideals are great and grand. But I've yet to meet the person whose idealism fails to fly out the window when they encounter ideas or persons they don't understand.
I agree with your suggestions for the Muslim world.
I heartily disagree with your comment to "spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism, spread Buddhism"...at least as written, sounds like you're suggesting evangelizing, which to me is a very un-Buddhist concept. Perhaps I'm reading something into your post that's not there. Could you clarify?
Good point, it doesn't seem possible to 'spread' Buddhism.
The Dhamma is there to solve the problems of the Self.
It is not there to solve the problems of the World.
I think that is -- generally -- very good advice. Some Buddhist principles would make a better world, but thinking that "we" can get the whole world to adopt such thinking is unrealistic.
May I suggest, as the emotional aspect of this thread is reflecting the reality of the conflict, that we all just breathe, and remember that children and women and men have died in this conflict. Forget not the inner and outer elements of your being. How can you deal with this? compassion! This is the buddhist path after all.
Spreading a way of being need not require "evangelism". OK, it may be slow, but it is possible to practice attraction and not promotion.
I am attracted to Buddhism not only by curiosity but by seeing that it works - for people with all sorts of backgrounds. Accepting the four truths does not require abandoning other beliefs such as Islam, Christianity or Judaeism (see the Dalai Lama in The Art of Happiness). The more I show compassion, the less I suffer. I respect others enough to think that they would also prefer not to suffer and seek a way to achieve that. Isn't acting by example, "walking the walk", my contribution - as well as the immediate benefits to me?
FROM: TODAY BOOK, (emotionsanonymous.org) "(C)Copyright Emotions Anonymous
absorb it, but rather, because I seek to radiate it.
We haz good plan. We haz real plan. We can do it.
I was hoping to be contended a little bit more...
vinlyn is right. This is generally right. But the Buddha himself stopped wars. And there is a distinct dhamma for laypeople that is not intent on nibbana. And there are suttas that describe how a nation may achieve success...
So maybe not as clearcut as I promoted.
/Victor
Struggling? Try this:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=bkTLIO2zanM
@lobster, if I read "we haz [plan]..." again, I'm going to throttle you..... and believe me, I could just do it....! We get the cushions. fine. But enough already of the childish blather....
federica haz plan! :clap:
... :banghead: .
Just let it go...
Indeed.
That is precisely what this thread is about. Not liking something. Labelling it and having the power to 'implement a solution'. Are you being evil? Of course not . . . must be me then being worthy of throttling . . .
I suppose the buck starts with examination of our potential . . . :scratch: .
Labelling it and having the power to 'implement a solution'.
I thought the thread was about not having the power to implement a solution?
Solutions, solutions, solutions.
The solution is us learning to accept that while we should do what ever we can to ease sufferings cause, the manifestation of such a possibility lies ultimately in the hands of each individual.
The solution is seeing that the first noble truth is true and that not having a solution to everyone's immediate suffering is part of that truth.
The solution is accepting that this suffering is what brought all of us closer to the solution that we might never have otherwise been interested in. That if another being could have resolved some of the sufferings that brought you to your present practice, would you have preferred such a life if it meant never experiencing such a practice?
Just because we don't like a solution, doesn't make it not the solution.
Oh definitely!
When my Christian friend and I were just getting to know each other, we got to the point where she asked me if I went to church or whatever. I told her no, I'm more a Buddhist than anything else. She said "That's interesting because you are one of the most 'christian' people I know.' I took that as one of the top five life compliments I'll probably get this time around.
It is very tough to avoid concrete thinking in the face of so much suffering. Solutions versus no solutions is a variation of black and white thinking.
Solutions versus no solutions is a variation of black and white thinking.
So what's the solution?
......
Hell @SpinyNorman, if it was that simple... wouldn't it be implemented by now? And sadly, those able to come to some kind of positive conclusion,a ren't sitting round the table that matters... furthermore, you can bet your bottom dollar - quite literally - that there's more at stake here than just stopping the bad guys and helping the good guys. Politics, diplomacy, world finance.....
In a way it's like a married couple who get to the point of irreconcilable differences, divorce, but due to alimony and the children cannot totally walk away from each other. There are relationships involved, whether they like it, or not.
That was my point, there may not be a solution.
Sweden is going to help with the relief effort. Supplies I guess.
There is always a solution but it is so big that nobody can/wants to see it.
IT's not that, necessarily. It's the effort and compromise required. Everybody wants peace, but on their terms.
That too. But there are a lot of solutions that could really work but is not viable because nobody will touch them. For instance.
Outlaw war. Institute a international police to enforce and a court to settle matters of conflict maybe through some regulated competition. Say football or chess.
Anybody breaking the ban gets deported to Australia...(just kiddin).
See that would solve the problem but how to implement this?
Look up the Kellogg-Briand act. We have outlawed war before with the League of Nations established as the adjudicating body to regulate competition. That was in the 1920s. And Japan, Germany, and the Soviet Union declared war on neighbors anyway and either left the club or were kicked out.
And besides, ISIS views non-Islamic governments as illegitimate anyway so they'd simply ignore it.
There is no one solution to this genocide. There are simply multiple choices that are all varying degrees of awful. Either let genocide happen unchecked or bomb the offenders and attempts to evacuate victims. Both choices will lead to massive death tolls. The debate is which is less awful.