Re: The Meditation Handbook by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
yagr
Veteran
I have read a fair amount of books on Buddhism to this point in my life. None have left me with as many questions as this current, small book entitled The Meditation Handbook by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. To be fair, I've not read on Lamrim prior to this. I'm going to just go ahead and list some of my questions and invite and request that if you could shed some light on any of these questions, you do so. I'm certainly not asking anyone to field them all – there's too many of them, but if you'd like to pick one and have a go I'd be appreciative.
I'd like to say too, that I have nothing but respect for those who follow the Tibetian tradition. I love the humanity, compassionate directness, playfulness, etc. in the readings that I've come in contact with. Nothing has failed to resonate with me until I saw the road map...which is interesting to me. Anyway, here I go:
Regarding the gods of the form and formless realms: “...eventually their lives end and they are once again reborn in the lower states of samsara.” pg 10.
I doesn't seem that it must matter overly much, but a few pages earlier (pgs 7-8) we are told that the karmic seeds we have sown can lay dormant for many lifetimes. With this in mind, it seems that there is nothing that would prevent one from being reborn into the same state of samsara (in which case it is not a lower state).
“There are three correct reasons why I should cherish myself and others equally: 1. All living beings have shown me great kindness in both this and previous lives.”
I could understand this first reason easier if he had said, “...in both this or previous lives.” The use of the word 'and' however, sets me back. Every living creature has done me a great kindness in this life seems a bit overstated. I simply can't see what a fruit fly in Taiwan has done for me this lifetime.
pg. 18 – (regarding setting up a shrine) “If we like, we can set out actual offerings in front of the shrine, such as rows of seven water bowls, or anything clean and beautiful...”
The moment I read the first part of that sentence, my mind jumped ahead with suggestions. And then I read the rest of the sentence. Does it really have to be 'clean and beautiful'? The first thing I thought of was putting a representation of one of my bad habits on the shrine – and giving it up. To use an example, if I smoked cigarettes and decided that bondage to nicotine was holding me back and I was prepared to give them up...it seemed to me that this would be an extremely powerful offering, rather than running down to the corner store and grabbing a few oranges. Do I have a poor understanding of this?
Pg 19 - “We generate fear of the sufferings of samsara in general...” pg 21 - “Fearing the consequences of these (karmic consequences of negative acts) actions...” pg 41 - “This fear is one of the main causes of going for refuge.”
I don't know folks, but he repeatedly talks about creating fear. I can't wrap my head around this. Doing anything out of fear just seems so...wrong. I've lived countless lives and have spent my share of time in the lower realms and perhaps shall do so again. There will be suffering...you know, like today just different. Maybe worse, maybe inconceivably worse, and yet, this too shall pass. It's part of the journey. Had I not suffered prior to this life, I wouldn't be thinking about escape now I suppose – but if I do not make a concentrated enough effort this lifetime, then I suppose I need more motivation. If I do make a sufficient effort this lifetime, then my time in the lower realms probably had something to do with my dedication now. No?
Pg 31 - “If I rely sincerely upon a Spiritual Guide...I shall never be born in the lower realms.” and pg 10 - “Since their lives are filled with distractions, it is difficult for them to find the motivation to practice Dharma. From a spiritual point of view a human life is much more meaningful than a god's life.”
The motivation for the first quote is to be born into the higher realms – human or higher. But why would anyone want to be born into a life as a god? If the goal is the cessation of suffering, and gods can't be bothered – then I can see the desire for a human rebirth but god realm or hell realm, what's the difference really?
In fact, if someone thinks driving drunk is a heap of fun and gets thrown in prison for a year...they might just never do it again after that experience. On the other hand, if all that happens to them is they get a stern talking to from the judge and let free, why quit driving drunk? There are undesirable consequences to both but one is so mild that the person probably isn't going to be motivated to change their behavior.
Pg 47 – “All the suffering we experience in this life, such as sickness, poverty, conflict, accidents and harm from humans and non-humans, is the result of our own past negative karma.”
I don't really have a problem with this per se but I do have a bit of a problem with the word 'suffering'. I'm sick; I've got a disease that carries a death sentence. I've experienced poverty these last sixteen months unlike anything I've previously experienced. Conflicts – yeah, today I discovered that my landlady came into my home while I was bringing my wife to the bus station to see her dying father, and put a spy program on my computer and has seen every keystroke I've made for the last thirteen days. But I'm not suffering.
The disease I've got has opened new doors for me, I'm writing now and frankly, my equanimity through it has opened the hearts of those people closest to me to the dharma. My father, who has staunchly refused to see anything outside his fear based box of Catholic dogma, has actually started asking me questions about Buddhism. Real questions. And he's listening to the answers. The poverty – I got to see who my real friends were and know that this is only temporary. When it ends, having received this lesson and knowing what I now know, I can and will be more useful to others in this situation. The conflicts? Seriously, discovering what she had done with my computer – my initial reaction was pity. What sort of debilitating fear and paranoia brings a person to do such a thing? Her behavior doesn't affect me. But it did. You know, the petty stuff she did would occasionally get under my skin, but after this? If she's that sick, she can't help herself. Getting mad at her would be like getting mad at a retarded kid for not being able to do calculus. (I mean 'retarded' in the medical sense)
I don't know – just seems like the suffering has no teeth. But that's what I've been taught: Stuff happens; suffering is optional. It continues:
Pg 49 goes on to say, “Since I wish to be free from every misfortune and enjoy uninterrupted happiness...”
Again, it has not been my experience that these are mutually exclusive. Is that what he is saying?
Pg 66 - “Whomever we meet, we should think, 'This person is my mother.' In this way we should feel equally warm toward all beings.”
Okay, just to be clear, thinking 'this is my child' or father or ...would work equally well, yes?
Comments
@yagr: I bought a couple of books by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and never could bring myself to finish them.
I find this link very helpful for Lamrim meditation, instead:
http://archive.thubtenchodron.org/GradualPathToEnlightenment/MeditationOutline.pdf
Remember that a lot of things are cultural. For example, the mother reference. Tibetan teachers I have done retreats with all focus strongly on the mother, because without a mother, no one could be alive. We can be alive without our children,and to an extent even without a father once conception has taken place. But not without a mother who at least in theory cared enough to carry you to term and squeeze you out. But the sentiment behind it surely can be applied to whatever works for you. Not everyone has been blessed with a mother who invokes kind feelings in them.
As for the offering, I think it is mostly meant in tone of respect. For example, generally speaking you might bring flowers or a nice photo to a funeral, but you would not bring the carcass of a dead animal. Even though the animal might truly be the most heartfelt and meaningful offering, it would just be seen by most as disrespectful in the situation. Most people when they go to church, dress somewhat conservatively, with the same idea in mind. It's not required, and perhaps one is more themselves and open and honest if they showed up in their butt bearing shorts and braless tanktop...but it's just not something that one does. Again, when it comes to just a personal offering in your own home, what the offering means to you is more important. It's about not being selfish and holding things for yourself "ok, well, I'll offer THIS orange, with it's odd shape and blemish because I really want to save the perfect looking orange for myself," for example.
I have not read him because I just cannot get into him. Several in our sangha do, but others do not. You'll find other teachers who interpret the same information in quite different ways.
It seems to me that @Jeffrey in particular might have some really good input on the more in-depth topics.
You've encountered some similar misgivings that I've also had with the more traditional Tibetan teachings. I agree with @karasti in that the emphasis and the way they are presented are largely cultural. If you read or listen to teachings from some of the teachers who put a more contemporary emphasis on interpretation most of that stuff goes away but the important things remain.
Perfectly mindless oranges v a real offering. You have the right idea.
The fear thing. Samsara and even picnics in hell have no fear for you? Good, we need fearless Buddhists.
The human realm is considered higher than the God realm. Gods traditionally, can not become enlightened.
Your questions are fine. :clap: .
Wow! That is pretty much word for word what I was going to put in my post @DhammaDragon! Great minds and all that.....
I have both the Thubten Chodron meditation book and cd you mention + the Geshe Kelsang Gyatso meditation book and cd @yagr mentioned.
I find Thubten Chodron's meditation much more palatable but I wonder if that's a cultural thing i.e. she's a Westerner and Gyatso is a Tibetan.
A very interesting read yagr, so i felt the need to reply....To me my shrine is my actual self, & the only way I'll ever get to see my true self is by constantly being & doing the best i can for myself first then others, that's the way to kill off a persons ego mind....Also by that token everybody else's body & mind is looked upon as a shrine, & so i wont willingly hurt anyone or anything....So any time i help someone as opposed to not helping I've just worshipped my creator, & I'm down to my last one & only bad habit which i will crack....So anyone who still has a bad habit, still has an ego to a certain degree....As far as fear is concerned it is only a figment of a person's ego mind which is projecting the person mentally into their future, & telling them what might happen if they do or don't do something when it's clearly impossible for anyone or anything to foresee the future....So if someone is fearful it is their ego mind, & logic & mindful distraction should be applied to combat the fear....So it's not about doing things out of fear, it's about not letting fear stop you doing something that your heart wants you or knows you should do....Fear is the ego mind trying to stop a person doing what they know is best for all, & if a person is aware at the time they will or should still do whatever is necessary "despite" the fear their own ego is telling them to feel....That i suppose is having absolute faith, that doing the right thing eventually pays off....Your disease has made you suffer over the years & it may carry a death sentence which none of us can escape, but it also means life for all the peeps who your helping with your writing & by being you a person who's definitely becoming enlightened at least more than most....I reckon if we're distracted off our hearts desire/path we will suffer, but that suffering is leading us eventually to what our heart desires, & it's led you to love writing & helping others....So suffering for me or dukkha which again no one can escape, is clearly there for us to learn from & then be guided by, because we obviously wouldn't or shouldn't do it again if we learn from it......Finally it's not so much thinking of the other peeps as your mother father etc, i think of us more as brothers & sisters learning how to control ourselves etc....So their all there to help me to learn about myself first, & as i do that i learn about everybody else....The reason being nearly everyone on planet is locked up in their ego minds, & the one's that aren't feel empathy for those that are. :-)
Hi, @Bunks! I have her book and cd too.
In my VHO, no, it's not quite a cultural thing.
I find Gyatso's style rather wanton and wayward, and there are a lot of controversies around his system, anyway. Enough to make me want to keep my distances.
And honestly, I never read anything memorable in his books.
Take anything by Lama Yeshe, his HH the Dalai Lama, Chögyam Trungpa and the rather heavy-duty Pabongka's Lamrim book "Liberation in the palm of your hand," and your pencil will have a feast of underlining work.
Karma sure is a funny sausage.
Exactly so.
Just a reminder, there is a huge difference between 'play spirituality' and being on the path. Doors open. Change happens. The teachings become self evident.
You can trust your discernment. As said, your shrine is you. In a sense, you are the teaching manifesting itself . . . Bravo. Tread firmly. Tread mindfully. In a very real sense we make a difference by seeing others as manifestations of our self. As well as the pity and poverty, there are Buddhas trapped inside . . . :wave: .
I think Gyatso's interpretation is traditional, not "wayward".
(Edit:I decided to edit original content because I found it too crass)
Lama Yeshe is traditional. Pabongka is traditional. Lama Zopa is traditional.
I simply don't like Gyatso's writing style and his ideology.
Other epithets come to mind rather than traditional but I decided to keep it to myself.
I can't read walls of text, but I wish I could help. The yellow sliders are particularly daunting.
I don't think there's any way to avoid cultural influence with Buddhism. Doesn't matter what kind you're talking about, - Tibetan, Zen, Therveda, Korean, etc. - there will be cultural influences. Tibetan Buddhism is just a bit more extravagant.
Even American teachers will present culture. Pema Chodron teaches staright-up Buddhism and even though schooled in Tibetan Buddhism, still presents the Dharma is a very American way. After all, she is an American.
So Kelsang, will undoubetly offer a very Tibetan flavor of Dharma. Why expect otherwise?
I think it's kinda neat.
A couple weeks ago I sat with Thrangu Rinpoche. It was TOTALLY Tibetan. Stuff (accoutrments, ritual, etc) you seldom see with other Tibetans teaching in the US. He even taught in Tibetan (with one of the best translators in the country). It was very cool. It was also very special - this could be his last teaching tour. If Rinpoche want's to roll old school, it's fine by me.
I've always enjoyed the Meditation Handbook its been very handy in helping me develop a firm Lamrim practice, Its light duty compared to some Lamrim texts and helpfully laid out.
I did Lamrim for a while but found it too "rebirthy".
Well, you are a member of New Kadampa Tradition, and Gyatso is your teacher...
So?
So he naturally likes Gyatso and finds it easier to relate to his style.
That's generally how things work. None of us are impartial when it comes to teachers.