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God
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Or with faith a belief is just something one thinks is true?
My reason for believing in God, a loving power greater than me, is that this illogical, irrational faith gives me comfort, reduces dukkha, at least in the form of dukkha-dukkha. Does that count as a good reason?
How do I know this? I never know what consequences my actions/thoughts will have, however hard I try to predict them, as I have no crystal ball. If I cannot know what consequence there will be, how can I know that there will be any consequence?
Thank you for this @ourself! I often struggle with the divide between the Old and New Testaments, Jews and Christians and subsequently the Qoran and Islam. This could be my answer
My reason for believing in God, a loving power greater than me, is that this illogical, irrational faith gives me comfort, reduces dukkha, at least in the form of dukkha-dukkha. Does that count as a good reason?
It's an honest reason. But are you seeking comfort or truth? There may well be a tension between the two.
but it still bothers me on some level that there is not more of an openness to the idea of God (not a personal God) in Buddhism.
There isn't openness probably because the Buddha called the idea of a universal consciousness or universal god a "wrong view", as he rejected all ideas of some eternally existing thing. The Buddha rejected both extremes of eternalism and nihilism. A universal god entity would fall under eternalism.
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I never suggested that the consequences are either predictable,or knowable. But in my own life and experience, I have as yet to encounter any event involving me that has NOT had a consequence of any kind.
You have...?
Yes, especially if it pulls you forward into being a kinder, wiser, and more compassionate human being.
A spiritual Truth doesn't stand or fall on it's basis in reality, but on it's transformative effect. The Buddha's parable of the raft refers.
If faith can be an equal amount of evidence and reason, sure.
To me, faith seems tied up with hope but it doesn't really make a difference in practice whether there is or isn't something we could call God (for lack of a better word).
That may well apply to some religions, but Buddhism is very much concerned with a basis in reality, seeing how things really are. So in Buddhism insight is transformative, not unsubstantiated belief.
God just ain't relevant!
We are all personal beings in communion with others. Wisdom is knowing that you are nothing and love is knowing that you are everything. This is most relevant.
A personal God is irrelevant for those who can't yet see the spiritual unity and oneness of all humanity, who can't recognize the image of God, Buddha nature, Tao, or whatever name it goes by in themselves or others.
Sorry, but what has that got to do with Buddhism?
Nothing. It's just a random personal opinion, I guess. I don't think @Silouan is Buddhist or has ever claimed to be....
Perhaps everything or nothing at all. ;-)
God just ain't relevant!
Buddhism is a wide river and there's lots of 'woo woo' stuff in there. In fact some brands are quite magical. Karma can be viewed in almost a mechanical (and magical) way, rebirth the same too. The Tulku process is interesting, dharma protectors sound like weird gods and lots of other stuff. Pureland Buddhism sounds quaint too.
A monk was telling me that in Bhutan they believed all kinds of weird stuff like Enlightened masters being able to travel from A to B at a click of a finger.
Maybe that's not your concept of Buddhism, but it certainly is many others.
So I'd love to know how you can make such definitive statements over what Buddhism is or isn't?
This is a difficult perspective to reconcile. Sufis say, 'the metaphorical is the Bridge to the Real'. In other words a dream raft may take us to the edge of awakening.
Tantra is a classic example of skilful delusions that provide real results.
To some it sounds like lying oneself to Truth. Tricky stuff . . . :wtf: .
First of all, Buddhism is what it is, not what each individual under the sun wants it to be.
You can take whatever strikes your fancy from Buddhism and integrate it to your Christian beliefs, but then don't call it Buddhism.
The Buddha did not bother with the God-question because he did not find it relevant to the cessation of suffering.
Whether a God exists or not has never been relevant in my personal quest for happiness, either. Your personal quest might lead you to think otherwise, but apparently you have been faring well despite dropping your old Christian God mindset.
Christian people always want people from other beliefs to open up to the idea that God might exist.
What about Christian people opening up to the idea that God might not exist and we can be perfectly happy despite that fact?
What about striving to become a better person and do good for good itself, rather than because a God above will punish me if I choose to do otherwise?
OK, I shouldn't over-generalise. So what school of Buddhism are you practising in, and does it involve unsubstantiated belief?
I don't think people involved in tantra would agree with your use of the word "delusion".
I don't believe in rebirth.
I don't disbelieve in rebirth.
Once rebirth is proved or disproved, I will accept whichever is the outcome.
Now, why is that viewpoint of mine still such a problem for you? After all, I'm not asking you to adopt that position.
Interesting.
I'm not a Buddhist, Norman, though I'm familiar with Buddhism; even did a formal two-year-course (Gelug Buddhism) to learn more about it. I have a family, I work, I like to run, I'm active in A.A. and regular attendance at a sangha got too much; I just didn't have the time.
Therefore because I felt I was of more use to A.A. I kicked the Buddhism into touch, though I still go to drop in meditation classes.
If I practice anything it's helping other alcoholics get and stay sober. It takes up a fair bit of my time, but it's rewarding and I find it very 'Buddhist' anyway.
But remember, like Buddhism 'God' is a wide river too. You'll find mystic Christians every bit as wise as highly realised Buddhists. Thomas Merton (a Catholic Trappist monk) even studied with Zen Buddhists and found a lot of common ground.
I was taught that concepts were truth-concealers and I suspect your concept of God may be concealing some deeper truths about the subject. Not all God concepts are 'magic man in the sky' ones; some even can sound a lot like the Buddhist notion of Emptiness.
You can take whatever strikes your fancy from Buddhism and integrate it to your Christian beliefs, but then don't call it Buddhism.
The Buddha did not bother with the God-question because he did not find it relevant to the cessation of suffering.
Whether a God exists or not has never been relevant in my personal quest for happiness, either. Your personal quest might lead you to think otherwise, but apparently you have been faring well despite dropping your old Christian God mindset.
Christian people always want people from other beliefs to open up to the idea that God might exist.
What about Christian people opening up to the idea that God might not exist and we can be perfectly happy despite that fact?
What about striving to become a better person and do good for good itself, rather than because a God above will punish me if I choose to do otherwise?
So Buddhism is what it is, not what each individual under the sun wants it to be. Suggest going to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_Buddhism and noticing that Buddhism is not what Buddhism "is"...it has as MANY variations...pretty much as many as any other religion.
I don't think people are calling their personal belief system "Buddhism". I think they're saying "here is my belief system; it is based partly (or perhaps even to a great extent) on Buddhist principles".
Plenty of Christians question whether God exists. And why do many Buddhists want Christians to believe in rebirth?
In my view it is a weak Christian who bases doing "right" and "good" merely because God will punish them. In fact, I can't think of a single Christian I've ever known that bases doing right or wrong simply on the fact that they will be punished or rewarded by an act of God. But I have known Buddhists who have not done wrong because they were afraid of the karma they would earn.
In sum, while the beliefs may be different, I don't see most Buddhists behaving much differently in how they look at their religion and beliefs than in how a Christian looks at his religion or beliefs.
@vinlyn: You're very sensitive over the Rebirth issue, and I am very sensitive over the God issue.
In my case, simply because I'm fed up with Christian friends and family falling all over me with the G-word all the time.
This is a Buddhist site, and even here it is us Buddhists who have to open up to Christian concepts, when in fact, in my VHO, it should be the other way around.
I am not a member in any Christian site.
Edit: And as wrong as it can seem, people being afraid of accumulating negative karma, therefore acknowledging that their actions have consequences, even if in a very elementary fashion, seems to me more logical than people giving over their power of choice to an external entity who sits in judgment of their behaviour.
Isn't 'transformation' in a positive way what we're after? I've been analysing why it works for me to ask myself "Where is God in this?" when I'm faced with anything I'm aversive to. I find the question easy to ask.
But prior when I attempted to be mindful, I would just hone in on the aspect of the situation I didn't like. For example if I was running and tried to be mindful, I would focus on the pain and discomfort and just really feel it.
And then I think I found that I didn't want to be mindful, I was kinda becoming aversive to the idea, simply because my mind would focus on the negative aspects and be mindful of them.
So now when I ask myself "Where is God in this?", it leads me to being mindful in a positive way. 'God' here is a raft to being mindful of the good stuff that's going on. Yesterday when I ran and was hurting and I asked myself where God was, I became mindful - not of my tired legs - but of the wind brushing against my skin.
And again later, when I was utterly bored with myself and I asked again, I found 'God' to be in the freedom of movement; how lucky am I to be able to run. Prior to which, if I tried to be mindful, I would've purely honed in on the feeling of boredom and tried to watch it. I preferred the feeling of gratitude than watching my boredom, which to be fair, is boring!
And being fit helps me to have more energy for practising compassion. And I like to think it inspires newcomers to A.A.; it lets them know we don't have to be sick and tired all the time.
Haven't you guys read and understood the Raft parable?
I'm sorry that your Christian friends and family are falling all over you about that. I haven't found that to be true with my family or friends. Frankly, if that's how my friends and family continually bombarded me with telling me what I have to believe, I'd drop them.
I am not a member in any Christian site, either.
I am not sure why a Buddhist idea of God would call up any images from Christianity except for the label but they often do.
You've said that a lot lately.
Are you waiting for someone to offer you the proof you seek/expect, or are you working on this yourself?
Because Buddhism doesn't have it's own idea of God?
"Secular Buddhist remembers past life" ?
That it's comforting to you isn't a good reason for me to believe it.
Even if the thought were comforting to me, that wouldn't be enough for me to believe it. My criteria for belief is that something is true, so there has to be sufficient justification and/or evidence to assess it.
I don't believe an individual can prove it either way. Although an individual can fool himself that he has.
I'm glad you posed that as a question because the process of Buddhadharma does indeed lead many to see a logical view of universal consciousness.
Buddha even addresses Brahman from time to time.
And would you say the same thing about belief in God?
Prove it to whom?
I think I have sufficient proof for my personal needs and quite frankly don't care what you think of that. My beliefs are not for you to judge, and they aren't informed by the opinions of others.
So is it safe to assume you mean there is no proof you are willing to accept?
So which Buddhist schools teach "universal consciousness"?
Ok, sorry guys... You'll need to begin a new thread. The OP posted once, and has not returned to the thread, which is spinning off at a tangent. By all means open up a new discussion, but I will await the OP's return and then re-open this thread upon their request, for answers and continued discussion, relevant to the OP's original post. Thank you all for contributing.