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@Victorious said:
One thing I learnt from my early school years is that bullys do not stop until made to stop. In those days most schools here did not have any awareness of bullying and how to handle it.
Very correct.
The question about bullies in schools comes down to WHO should stop them.
@Victorious said:
It is probably not that they cannot be traced rather than that the crime has to be of some standing to extract the information from the ISP:s.
And maybe obscene emails do not cut it. Unfortunately.
Earlier when the net was young in some cases anybodys private ip could be traced.
I had someone who "borrowed" my computer for I do not know what. I could trace the Ip pretty easily back to its source and even found an email in the states.
I kindly asked the person to stop and E did. At least I didnt notice anything after that.
Very true.
At our school we traced a number of emails back to a source. Not sure how our technology assistant did it, and it did take a while, but the few times we asked, she accomplished it.
A lot will also depend on what kind of assistance you get from a provider. We had a case where a group of students -- outside of school -- set up dual websites with different providers for "The Whores of L--------- Middle School". It included photos of a few of our students having sex at parties. Technically, despite the name of our school being used, we had no legal jurisdiction to do anything. But, both website providers acceded to have the sites closed down within 2 hours when I notified them of a breach of their own terms of service. They were very cooperative.
@vinlyn said:
The question about bullies in schools comes down to WHO should stop them.
Now a days schools are required to have an action plan in place and follow it if any incident occurs. And also it is the bully that is at risk of being removed to another school and not the victims as it was before.
I am not sure if this really is a good thing. Because it is good to learn how to handle bullys and haters early so you learn to handle yourself in real life later on.
Society is full of idiots (obviously) and there is no all encompassing action plan out there. Even if there should be IMO.
@Victorious said:
Now a days schools are required to have an action plan in place and follow it if any incident occurs. And also it is the bully that is at risk of being removed to another school and not the victims as it was before. I am not sure if this really is a good thing. Because it is good to learn how to handle bullys and haters early so you learn to handle yourself in real life later on. Society is full of idiots (obviously) and there is no all encompassing action plan out there. Even if there should be IMO.
There is no such requirement in place in the U.S. for such programs. It's very much a district by district thing. And, removing students to another school is not something that happens often...particularly in school districts that only have one middle or high school...but even in large school systems.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Putting people of so-called ethnic minorities forward, is known as 'reverse discrimination'. It happens a great deal on british tv and other media outlets, too. It's basically an indication of political correctness: in spite of the fact that members of other races and cultures are in the minority, they're given prominence as a way of demonstrating that those responsible are not prejudiced.
So in fact, in such matters, the indigenous population is discriminated against.
See this official Government-sponsored website - look at the banner heading. Those portrayed do not represent the majority, but are prominent and dominant.
It happens throughout the media, particularly in advertising and on television.
And something that may not be as prevalent or liberal in the USA - we have a great many programmes fronted by homosexual people. And I'm not just talking entertainment, or drama. While Elen Degeneres seems to have made herself the acceptable face of lesbianism, from what I can gather, homosexuality is still confined to light entertainment, or drama. Here in the UK it's mainstream and commonplace.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
edited November 2014
@Dakini said:
zombiegirl Could you give some examples of how beliefs that women are inferior come out in the media? Or are you talking mainly about advertising? What about in film or news programs?
Oh lord this might be long, remember that you asked... lol.
I was mainly thinking about the topics of objectification and the lack of female centeredness in certain media. If you watch the video I posted, she shows many examples in advertising, but I think video games and movies can also serve as pretty good examples. In video games, women characters are often (not saying always, mind you) over-sexualized with tiny ridiculous armor and posed in ways that accentuate their ahem assets (the idea that when I say the phrase "assets" in regards to a woman, most would immediately know I mean boobs/ass, is also sort of interesting when you think about it). I have a video game on my 3DS called Senran Kagura that allows you to zoom in and look up the characters' skirts. If you shake the screen, their boobs also bounce... all in 3D. I'm not kidding... (This is a totally Japanese game though.)
But another point that any female gamer will be able to back me up on, is that you're pretty damn lucky if you get even one female playable character DESPITE studies that now say that females make up about 40% of the gaming population. But if that's true, then why aren't we respected as much as buyers? It has to be because men are prioritized as an audience. This is getting better btw, but it still tends to be more like at least 5 male options and maybe 1 or 2 females. The exceptions to the rule tends to be games where you can customize your character features as a male or a female, so obviously options are limitless... but even then, there are games like Assassins Creed, whose designer famously said that they allowed for a bunch of different male character options and not even one female option because, "Women are too hard to animate." (Even though they had an Assassin's Creed DLC game that featured a woman, so they had done it in the past...) Gag. There are, of course, exceptions with games that star women (Off the top of my head: Tomb Raider, Metroid, Bayonetta, Bikini Zombie Slayers, etc...) but unfortunately, those games often fall back into the objectification realm where the main character MUST be sexy and almost serves as eye-candy more than anything (Metroid is an exception). The only game that I can think of that has the playable characters list tipped towards women is Hyrule Warriors, which just came out for the Wii U about a month ago. Out of 15 playable characters I have unlocked, 9 of them are women! It's unbelievable and awesome. But imo, Nintendo tends to have a pretty good track record with women characters. In Mario 2, and more recently, Super Mario 3D World, Princess Peach is undeniably the best character because her attribute allows her to float. I feel like everyone who played Mario 2 back in the day always played as Peach.
In regards to movies, there is a running theme where movies starring women tend to be movies for women... whereas movies starring men tend to be seen as more universal. In addition to being more "universal" they are also incredibly more likely to be recognized for awards, as well as just existing in general. It's not exactly shouting that women are "inferior," but there is definitely something going on that is creating such a disparity between the quantity of movies with a female presence and those without. I think a logical assumption is that the female voice and presence tend to be less respected or prioritized, either by the public in general, or by the production companies who decide what movies are being made. To illustrate this, the Bechdel Test is commonly used, even though it is such a bare minimum standard to determine if movies have a female presence that it's almost a joke. All a movie has to do to pass is 1. Have more than one woman in it, 2. Have those two women talk to each other, and 3. Have those women talk to each other about something other than a man. That is seriously it... which is why it's so sad just how many movies don't pass this test, and yet, we're so used to it, we never even notice.
Sorry to keep posting youtube videos, but this is a really short 2min video by Anita Sarkeesian that talks about the Bechdel Test. It gives a pretty quick and long list of a bunch of movies that don't pass the test if you're interested. So, an easy criticism would be to say, "Well, obviously she picked out a bunch of random movies that specifically don't pass the test to make her point." But then for a different avenue of discussion, she made another and more elaborate video that highlighted films over the last 50 years that had won the Academy Awards and tallied how many of the movies were centered around women and women's lives.
So, what was the result? Only 4 out of the last 50 movies (at the time of the video) to win the Academy Awards were centered around women exclusively. Only another 8 are considered equally focused on men and women, which leaves 38/50 focused on men specifically.
As Sarkeesian puts it herself, "One of the primary reasons that Hollywood continues to churn out movies about men is because we live in a male centered society. Most simply, male centeredness is an aspect of the patriarchy that shows us that we place and prioritize our attention on men and men's stories, the things men do, and the things men don't do. As a result, the images we see in the media often focus on men's stories."
The word "inferior" may seem harsh, but in a way, it does seem to me to be what all of this implies. Simply put, that women's stories or perspectives or feelings don't matter as much as a man's... at least when you're trying to sell something.
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
@federica said:
While Elen Degeneres seems to have made herself the acceptable face of lesbianism, from what I can gather, homosexuality is still confined to light entertainment, or drama. Here in the UK it's mainstream and commonplace.
I've never seen so much gay sex as watching Torchwood, not that I'm complaining because I still loved the show and it didn't bother me.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I'm seriously asking, how do you think that drama series would go down in the USA, on general release, @Toraldris?
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited November 2014
@federica Probably not as well. People here are having less and less of a problem with homosexuality, but gay sex scenes are probably a few years down the road (the UK is further ahead), especially if they happen often in a show.
If you mean Torchwood specifically... I'm not sure. I think it's only because I'm a Doctor Who fan that I knew about that show and watched it. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have been that interested. It's only recently that Doctor Who itself has become popular in the States.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
You know, don't you, that 'Torchwood' is an anagram of 'Doctor who'...?
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited November 2014
@federica said:
You know, don't you, that 'Torchwood' is an anagram of 'Doctor who'...?
Yep I do. There's all sorts of cleverness in the Whoniverse.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2014
Getting back to topic,@Dakini, this is another way there is subliminal prejudice against women in the media.
Having only read about the program ("Torchwood"), it sounds like something you might find on one of the cable channels in the U.S., but not on broadcast t.v.
@zombiegirl said:
Sorry to keep posting youtube videos, but this is a really short 2min video by Anita Sarkeesian that talks about the Bechdel Test. It gives a pretty quick and long list of a bunch of movies that don't pass the test if you're interested. So, an easy criticism would be to say, "Well, obviously she picked out a bunch of random movies that specifically don't pass the test to make her point." But then for a different avenue of discussion, she made another and more elaborate video that highlighted films over the last 50 years that had won the Academy Awards and tallied how many of the movies were centered around women and women's lives.
I think that's a good example. About half of the movies that have come out so far in 2014 fail the bechedel test. To pass, a movie has to have (1) at least two named women in it (2) who talk to each other (3) about something besides a man. The test itself is "meant to determine whether women were portrayed in movies as people and not simply pawns of male characters," which is one metric for gauging sexism in media.
Thanks, @zombiegirl I'm not part of the gamer scene, so that's not what I had in mind when I asked. The gamer thing reminds me of the superhero comic books. Both male and female superheroes were somewhat sexualized, had ideal bodies. I don't know if the male figures in videogames are like that, with the super physique of Superman? But "Bikini Zombie Slayers" says it all, lol! MASSIVE EYEROLL!
I wonder if the obvious catering to a male audience subconsciously gives rise to a sense of male privilege, which then fosters the mentality that views women tech executives and gamer execs as interlopers in a man's world, leading to the kind of violent harassment that's the subject of this thread.
Someone should do a psychological study on that. It sounds like an obvious correlation. The more any group of people is lead to believe it is inherently privileged, the less compassionate it becomes, so it seems.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
Absolutely nuts! One of my favorite comics from the 80's is where the Bechdel test came from!
Reading all these great posts reminds me of how deeply we are impacted by what goes UNSAID and UNSEEN. If you personally fall through the gap into a person who rarely if ever sees him/herself represented at all, what that INFORMS you of your existence can be major impactful. Your existence may be underrepresented, which throws your 'rightful' existence, as you are, into question. Should I be as I am? We know automatically when we aren't mirrored. If there is no image, am I really OK?
I see OVERrepresenting blacks and gays or other minorities as a corrective action, definitely over balanced but necessary to rebalance. I look forward to my grandchildren's movies and books, where two girls or two boys or a black girl and white boy just 'get together' as simply and without fanfare as a man and woman. There won't be a central political or moral 'drama' about two girls falling in love, it will just be a nonchalant piece of the plot, common mind candy.
In the US, there was a Cheerios commercial featuring a biracial girl with a Black dad and a white mom. In spite of the hugely common biracial relationships, not to mention biracial people all over the place, to actually FEATURE it, as if it were no biggie, in a Cheerios commercial caused a huge backlash, lots of drama the media of course exploited. I wish I'd seen the commercial itself before I read the articles. I have a feeling it might have gone over my head at first but then later I would have been wowed by it.
I started watching a very corny TV series called "The 100", about teen criminals tossed back down to earth from the orbital humanity fled to after a world devastating nuclear war. The protagonist FEMALE (white/blond, naturally) finds out that her friend, a Black youth, is in love with her. After this affecting scene HE IS KILLED OFF. Before he was killed off I was thinking "OK, wow, they are actually going to do this! A white girl and black boy falling in love." But when he was killed off I could hardly be surprised. THAT is disheartening. In this day and age, US movies and TV series still avoid even this most common partnering! Still too political .
As I have been reading recent posts in this thread, it occurred to me that most "groups" that I could think of have expressed some exasperation about how they are treated by people in other "groups".
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@Dakini said:
That's all it takes, for women to catch major flack. Especially in male-dominated fields. In fields like construction, the harassment is aimed at driving the perceived interloper out of a job that's considered a man's job.
Agreed. In the interest of balance though, the vitriol I was gifted with as a male nursing student in the 70's was also a good example of sexism in certain female dominated fields. It was so bad that I changed my major. It wasn't any less challenging as a single father raising his daughter.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
edited November 2014
@Dakini said:
Thanks, zombiegirl I'm not part of the gamer scene, so that's not what I had in mind when I asked. The gamer thing reminds me of the superhero comic books. Both male and female superheroes were somewhat sexualized, had ideal bodies. I don't know if the male figures in videogames are like that, with the super physique of Superman? But "Bikini Zombie Slayers" says it all, lol! MASSIVE EYEROLL!
I wonder if the obvious catering to a male audience subconsciously gives rise to a sense of male privilege, which then fosters the mentality that views women tech executives and gamer execs as interlopers in a man's world, leading to the kind of violent harassment that's the subject of this thread.
Someone should do a psychological study on that. It sounds like an obvious correlation. The more any group of people is lead to believe it is inherently privileged, the less compassionate it becomes, so it seems.
I completely agree that men are stigmatized as well in video games and especially anything to do with the superhero genre. It's kind of a delicate topic to discuss because I won't say that men aren't pushed to attain the ideal body (muscles, tall, etc) by this sort of media, but at the same time... There aren't any video games that I can think of which reduce them to objects by having the point be playing as super buff dudes in sexy outfits for the express purpose of seeing super buff dudes in sexy outfits (Bikini Zombie Slayers is obviously the title I'm drawing a correlation to. The name really does say it all, doesn't it?). The best I can explain it, the problem is not that characters portray an ideal fantasy, the problem is more when their entire point or existence rests on that fantasy. I don't think that being seen as powerful and muscular is the same as being seen as a sex object when you break it down into the essence of the stereotypes. While men may be stereotyped and stigmatized, I don't believe that they are being objectified in the same way. They are still people, a sexy woman in a video game is more like an object. When I hear men explain why they sometimes choose to play as women characters, they often say, "Because I'd rather watch a sexy woman running around my screen."
This is also kind of a difficult discussion for me because I really do understand that men's pov. Look, I own the game Bikini Zombie Slayers (but to be fair, I pretty much buy anything with Zombie in the title). So, I don't hate that there are sexy female characters, what I dislike is when that seems to be all that they are, the only reason for their existence. I'm not opposed to it, but when even I'm eye-rolling at certain oversexualized scenes or moves... I think that's kind of bad, heh. I also own the game Senran Kagura (the game where you can make their boobs bounce) and while it's appalling on some levels (it's a fighting game and the more damage you take, the more your clothes fall off as well), it's also a really fun game that has a variety of interesting and different female characters and much of the game is actually focused on how they interact with each other in the style of a "visual novel." So, in regards to video games, it's really not black and white. A game that contains objectification is not automatically a bad game, but there just isn't any accountability, unfortunately. Game designers make these games because they think sexy girls will attract their demographic (they're not wrong) and never think about what sort of a environment these types of blatant objectification may be creating... which we are now learning about.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your points about games creating this sort of subconscious sense of male privilege. That is the world of video games, and with the recent Gamergate, it seems that some of that sense of privilege is spilling over into the real world via the internet. Female gamers have long had issues playing in public platforms, especially in games that involve using your voice to communicate (like Halo, for example). From blatant insults to sexual harassment, this is something that is well known to female gamers, but hasn't really caught much public attention until recently.
@yagr said:
Agreed. In the interest of balance though, the vitriol I was gifted with as a male nursing student in the 70's was also a good example of sexism in certain female dominated fields. It was so bad that I changed my major. It wasn't any less challenging >as a single father raising his daughter.
Really? Did you get hassled chronically as a nursing student? I've never heard that before from a male nurse.
@zombiegirl said:
I also own the game Senran Kagura (the game where you can make their boobs bounce) and while it's appalling on some levels (it's a fighting game and the more damage you take, the more your clothes fall off as well), it's also a really fun game that >has a variety of interesting and different female characters and much of the game is actually focused on how they interact with each other in the style of a "visual novel." So, >in regards to video games, it's really not black and white. A game that contains objectification is not automatically a bad game, but there just isn't any accountability, >unfortunately. Game designers make these games because they think sexy girls will attract their demographic (they're not wrong) and never think about what sort of a environment these types of blatant objectification may be creating... which we are now >learning about.
I'm aghast! This is soft porn! This is grooming kids for porn. And it's distressing that this over-sexualization should be so fundamental to the game genre that women gamers end up in a position of accepting it and explaining it in order to get whatever they get out of the game. Think of what being fed those images and roles constantly does to young girls. Those of us who grew up with superhero comics had something similar to deal with, though on a smaller scale. But still, all those perfect bodies did affect pre-teen girls' self-image and also their ideas of what would be valued about them by society as they became adults. And how they'd be devalued and sidelined if they didn't measure up to the ideal image. It's very insidious.
Thanks for sharing.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
edited November 2014
Yeaaahhhh the game is pretty awful. I probably shouldn't have bought it (but there's also lesbian romances between the characters and I'm such a sucker). And yes, it probably is soft porn. The game was released only as a download, which should in theory, keep the buyers as adults only since you need credit card info and such. But there probably are some spoiled kids out there that have their parent's account information saved and can buy whatever they want, whenever. The lines between games and porn are a little more blurred in Japan, which is why I felt it relevant to point out that it is a very Japanese game. It's subtitled, but there was no dubbing or even an attempt to change the Japanese text for most of the game. In case you don't know, "visual novels" are a gaming trend in Japan that involve a choose-your-own-adventure type story, usually leading to sexy situations (or even actual pornography). This game doesn't follow that exact model, but does seem similar to me based on the huge blocks of text narration it uses to tell the story. Now that I think about it, this game might have been a bit too far out of the general public's radar for me to mention in this thread, but it still does exist in the American market (I think it has at least one sequel as well) and they also have an anime version that we even sell at my work... so, idk.
Wow. Just wow. @zombiegirl, I wonder how men who play games like that, with porn situations, or a feature that allows the user to look up the skirts of the female figures, go through day to day life. What are their thoughts when women cross their path? How do they relate to women? What are their relationships like? I saw a youtube presentation by an American student (female) who lived in Japan for a year and got into what turned out to be an abusive relationship with a young guy there. I don't know if that was just a fluke, or if there's a correlation to video games. Who knows. But she posted her vid as a warning to other women foreign students considering studying or working in Japan.
This isn't to pick on the Japanese, though. I think we're seeing the consequences of a steady diet of these games on young men here at home, too.
But maybe I'm being an old fuddy-duddy? Guys?
I wonder if games like that are popular in Scandinavia.
I admit I'm pretty oblivious to the online battle of the sexes, the latest battleground which seems to be who can outdo the other in victimhood. Where do people go where they are bombarded by harassing sexism? Certainly not the cat videos, motorcycle vlogs, and boring economics articles that I read.
I just sort of laugh when I hear of men or women painting the other 3 billion people that aren't their sex as a monolith because of some dumb video of boorish behavior or mean, anonymous comments on their blog.
I think some people view it as their divine mission in life to spend their entire day looking for something to be offended by.
I don't find it funny at all. I currently work on a college campus, and I recently found out that 1 in 5 women are sexual assaulted during their time in college. 1 in 5. That's not a joke; and this isn't about who can outdo the other in victimhood, it's about confronting the reality that women still face a great deal of discrimination and violence while simply going about their daily lives.
A concept that I've been thinking about quite a bit over the past half year or so is what I'll call the "either/or syndrome". I think it's a very human trait to think that things are either/or, but I think very frequently it's not a case of either/or. Let me give you an example: on this forum the either/or syndrome arises most frequently with people advocating that you can't be Buddhist and Christian...no, you must be Buddhist or Christian...as if one can't formulate a set of principles culled from both religions with which to improve their lives.
Jason is correct. "Women still face a great deal of discrimination and violence while simply going about their daily lives". Walk through a city where there are some construction projects going on and just listen to the loud catcalls being made by many construction workers when a beautiful woman is walking down the sidewalk...and those catcalls are often very overt and explicit. It's disgusting, and one could say the tip of the iceberg.
But again, it's not either/or. Frozen_Paratrooper's observation that there is a lot of victim-hood out there, as well (and some among women) has some validity, as well. I remember several women teachers in my school upset when the School Board hired another male superintendent...and at that point, there had not yet been a female superintendent in our very large district (well over 100,000 students). They ranted for quite a while about how sexist the School Board was. But, what was the reality? The School Board was (and had been for some time) pretty evenly divided between men and women. While the superintendent had always been a male, among the assistant superintendents (of which there were MANY) and other leadership roles in district-wide administration, a clear majority of positions were held by women. Among principals (of which there were in the neighborhood of 175), a clear majority of positions were held by women (and that was true for assistant principals and guidance directors, as well). The pay scale for all staff was simply a scale which had nothing to do with the sex of a person. And yet, there was this group of women teachers complaining about how sexist the School Board and administration were, despite the fact that the clear majority of administration in the system was made up of women.
FP said, "I just sort of laugh when I hear of men or women painting the other 3 billion people that aren't their sex as a monolith". Think about what he just said -- that BOTH men and women tend to paint the other half as monolithic thinkers. He attributed a very human to trait to both subgroups of humans. He didn't stoop to the either/or syndrome. He went on to say that, "some people view it as their divine mission in life to spend their entire day looking for something to be offended by". He didn't say women as a group do that, he attributed the characteristic to people in general.
In an earlier post I alluded to "most groups that I could think of have expressed some exasperation about how they are treated by people in other groups. It is clear, as Jason has pointed out, that women are treated shabbily in many ways in Western society. Blacks are, too. Latinos. American Indians. Asians. And many Whites will tell you they are, as well. I've heard, at various times, how shabbily Republicans are treated...and at other times Democrats. Conservatives and liberals. Football players. Taxi drivers. Store clerks. Teachers of electives. Senior citizens. Students. Gun owners. The poor. Christians. Buddhists. Long haul truckers. Government workers. Gays. Straights. I could go on and on. That's where the victim-hood comes in.
But having said that, we should continue to work to improve the life of all people and to eliminate unfair prejudices that different groups experience.
And, when we are feeling discriminated against, we should also resolve to get on with our living, as best we can. Whoever we are and whatever group we're a part of, we can (usually) endure.
^^^ well said @vinlyn. Of any two options, choose the third . . . or the Middle way . . . well that is my plan. I am very guilty of the either or syndrome so a timely reminder . . .
In an earlier post I alluded to "most groups that I could think of have expressed some exasperation about how they are treated by people in other groups. It is clear, as Jason has pointed out, that women are treated shabbily in many ways in Western society. Blacks are, too. Latinos. American Indians. Asians. And many Whites will tell you they are, as well. I've heard, at various times, how shabbily Republicans are treated...and at other times Democrats. Conservatives and liberals. Football players. Taxi drivers. Store clerks. Teachers of electives. Senior citizens. Students. Gun owners. The poor. Christians. Buddhists. Long haul truckers. Government workers. Gays. Straights. I could go on and on. That's where the victim-hood comes in.
But having said that, we should continue to work to improve the life of all people and to eliminate unfair prejudices that different groups experience.
And, when we are feeling discriminated against, we should also resolve to get on with our living, as best we can. Whoever we are and whatever group we're a part of, we can (usually) endure.
These are excellent points and I think we can all agree that the ego is mostly to blame for this. Probably the reason there's such a huge backlash against feminism at the moment is because men read the criticisms of the patriarchal society as a direct attack on them personally. A very clear example of this was when the # NotAllMen tag emerged. Of course, it's not all men that are causing issues... and yet, it seemed to be a necessity for some to state it publicly. (And of course, this is not the only example. You brought up a point detailing a similar situation with the players flopped, so obviously, women and any other group are not exempt from this.)
It's hard to not cling to the ego and see that not everything is about you and your particular defining characteristics. Recently, I stopped reading a popular online lesbian magazine because their rhetoric had become so negative... everything seemed to be an attack on gays or trans*folk or other minorities to them. There are problematic things in our society but we need to be able to discuss them in a manner that does not admonish the other group. When I'm constantly being told that my POV don't matter because of whatever privileges I happen to posses, we are past the point of learning... we are past the point where a meaningful discussion can be had that enriches both of our lives. I try hard to see both sides of the story and not make sweeping generalizations, but I am not perfect either. I still cling to my ego at times. But that is another reason that I often cherish this forum because most members can gently point out these sorts of unrealized biases without attacking.
Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say above is that we do need to be able to go on with our lives and not constantly inhabit the space of victimhood, but we also need to be able to listen to each other and grow. When someone is telling you about an issue in society that you might deem is a non-issue, it's very relevant to ask yourself if it is simply something you see as a non-issue because it doesn't affect you personally. I often have to do this myself.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@vinlyn said: It is clear, as Jason has pointed out, that women are treated shabbily in many ways in Western society. Blacks are, too. Latinos. American Indians. Asians. And many Whites will tell you they are, as well.
>
Interesting.
And let's look at how black women are treated: Enforced female genital mutilation, rape, slavery.
Latinos: Definitely not members of Women's lib, mostly, particularly in South America.
American indians: Doesn't look too good for them either, frankly, as I recall a previous (Native American) member regaling us with a sad and sorry account...
Asians: Honour killings, public and multiplen rapes and Enforced marriages, anyone?
Whites: I'm not even going there.
The sad and mad fact many are overlooking is that these kinds of prejudices - specifically aimed at, and concerning women, and only women because they are women - has been going on for thousands of years.
In this so-called modern and enlightened age (lower-case 'e', of course) you would by now thing that the objectification, discrimination and humiliation of women - simply because they are women - would be well and truly a thing of the past.
At least, in our modern, state-of-the-Art, up-to-date Western Society, you would.....
Sadly, this is not the case, and while much is made of the anti-discrimination Laws, and the crimes and prejudices against these ethnic groups, the crimes against women are clubbed in and included in the injustice of it all, whereas in fact, they should be treated as special, significant and prominent injustices - because in a way, for mankind to continue, it is more important to safeguard the welfare and well-being of the female of the species.
Really though. If such prejudice and vitriol existed for any man - simply because of his gender - there would be an instant global revolt.
@Frozen_Paratrooper said:
I admit I'm pretty oblivious to the online battle of the sexes, the latest battleground which seems to be who can outdo the other in victimhood. Where do people go where they are bombarded by harassing sexism? Certainly not the cat videos, motorcycle vlogs, and boring economics articles that I read.
I just sort of laugh when I hear of men or women painting the other 3 billion people that aren't their sex as a monolith because of some dumb video of boorish behavior or mean, anonymous comments on their blog.
I think some people view it as their divine mission in life to spend their entire day looking for something to be offended by.
FP, you must have missed the part about the female tech exec who got threats emailed to her and twittered about her, and the crowd attack threat involving firearms that was called in when she accepted a university speaking engagement. "Outdoing each other in victimhood"? Seriously? It sounds like you didn't read the first page of the thread. You don't seem to understand the topic. I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Jason is correct. "Women still face a great deal of discrimination and violence while simply going about their daily lives". Walk through a city where there are some >construction projects going on and just listen to the loud catcalls being made by many construction workers when a beautiful woman is walking down the sidewalk...and those >catcalls are often very overt and explicit. It's disgusting, and one could say the tip of the iceberg.
I just wanted to add that the women passing by the construction zones don't have to be beautiful to get that reaction. A friend of mine who wears dorky glasses and has the body of an 11-year-old gets harassed relentlessly in situations like that, and she can't figure out why. She looks like a child. I think examples like that go to show that it's not about sex, just like rape isn't about sex. It's about power. It's about displaying power over someone, sometimes for no other reason than the fact that you can.
I read the the first page some time ago, but my comments were more responding to the last page and specifically the spate of viral videos with men and women being cat called.
As for the internet, the internet's anonymity is what causes the nastiness. If you think you can get away with horrific behavior and face no social repercussions, you are more likely to do it. It's human psychology.
As this is Buddhist forum, kind of I feel it is up to each of us to empower each other's gender free Buddha Nurture [sic]
In the open Tantric practice of Green Tara Sadhana, I am a green teen goddess. That is a personification of compassion which is independent of lesser being such as health, wealth and outer ego shells.
I feel that the enlightened perspective, like a love that is blind but in fact perceptive beyond the form, we are in essence Pure Being.
I just wanted to add that the women passing by the construction zones don't have to be beautiful to get that reaction.
Yes, that's true, it seems to be a habitual reaction with some men. Years ago I worked in a Buddhist building co-op, and it was refreshing to work in a team where that kind of mindless behaviour wasn't encouraged. Also we had a couple of women in the team, which was quite unusual in those days.
What I mean is that if a man is not committed to basic Buddhist principles, then I would not expect him to be mindful of his thoughts and behaviors in that regard.
@vinlyn said:
What I mean is that if a man is not committed to basic Buddhist principles, then I would not expect him to be mindful of his thoughts and behaviors in that regard.
You mean some men are little more than monkeys and some women little more than monkey mates. Can it be true gentle reader?
This is a cruel indictment of my parents . . . but true
_I will be a Buddha . . . I will be a Buddha . . . _
Well, yes, that is what I mean. Mindfulness is not a universal goal (even among Buddhists), so why would I expect a construction worker on a hoist to be being mindful? He's made no such commitment.
@vinlyn said:
Well, yes, that is what I mean. Mindfulness is not a universal goal (even among Buddhists), so why would I expect a construction worker on a hoist to be being mindful? He's made no such commitment.
Of course, but earlier you said this: "I don't think that kind of behaviour is mindless to such men, in fact, in their world it may be mindful." So I don't know what you meant here by "mindful".
From past experience in the building trade I have the impression that the kind of sexist behaviour we were talking about is often habitual, done with very little awareness or thought. Behind it there's a lot of peer pressure, so it's an expectation and becomes the norm. I don't see how that is "mindful" in any sense of the word, which is why I called it "mindless" behaviour.
@SpinyNorman said:
From past experience in the building trade I have the impression that the kind of sexist behaviour we were talking about is often habitual, done with very little awareness or thought. Behind it there's a lot of peer pressure, so it's an expectation and becomes the norm. I don't see how that is "mindful" in any sense of the word, which is why I called it "mindless" behaviour.
Once again, I don't think it's either/or.
But let's say there's a mixed group of 20 men working on construction. They begin their catcalling as an attractive woman walks by. Some percentage of those men are just acting under peer pressure and it's just an act. But with over 90,000 reported rapes per year in the United States (according to one set of data), some of those men aren't just acting the part. Some guys are serious and make it happen at some point or another.
Comments
Very correct.
The question about bullies in schools comes down to WHO should stop them.
Very true.
At our school we traced a number of emails back to a source. Not sure how our technology assistant did it, and it did take a while, but the few times we asked, she accomplished it.
A lot will also depend on what kind of assistance you get from a provider. We had a case where a group of students -- outside of school -- set up dual websites with different providers for "The Whores of L--------- Middle School". It included photos of a few of our students having sex at parties. Technically, despite the name of our school being used, we had no legal jurisdiction to do anything. But, both website providers acceded to have the sites closed down within 2 hours when I notified them of a breach of their own terms of service. They were very cooperative.
Now a days schools are required to have an action plan in place and follow it if any incident occurs. And also it is the bully that is at risk of being removed to another school and not the victims as it was before.
I am not sure if this really is a good thing. Because it is good to learn how to handle bullys and haters early so you learn to handle yourself in real life later on.
Society is full of idiots (obviously) and there is no all encompassing action plan out there. Even if there should be IMO.
/Victor
There is no such requirement in place in the U.S. for such programs. It's very much a district by district thing. And, removing students to another school is not something that happens often...particularly in school districts that only have one middle or high school...but even in large school systems.
Putting people of so-called ethnic minorities forward, is known as 'reverse discrimination'. It happens a great deal on british tv and other media outlets, too. It's basically an indication of political correctness: in spite of the fact that members of other races and cultures are in the minority, they're given prominence as a way of demonstrating that those responsible are not prejudiced.
So in fact, in such matters, the indigenous population is discriminated against.
See this official Government-sponsored website - look at the banner heading. Those portrayed do not represent the majority, but are prominent and dominant.
It happens throughout the media, particularly in advertising and on television.
And something that may not be as prevalent or liberal in the USA - we have a great many programmes fronted by homosexual people. And I'm not just talking entertainment, or drama. While Elen Degeneres seems to have made herself the acceptable face of lesbianism, from what I can gather, homosexuality is still confined to light entertainment, or drama. Here in the UK it's mainstream and commonplace.
Oh lord this might be long, remember that you asked... lol.
I was mainly thinking about the topics of objectification and the lack of female centeredness in certain media. If you watch the video I posted, she shows many examples in advertising, but I think video games and movies can also serve as pretty good examples. In video games, women characters are often (not saying always, mind you) over-sexualized with tiny ridiculous armor and posed in ways that accentuate their ahem assets (the idea that when I say the phrase "assets" in regards to a woman, most would immediately know I mean boobs/ass, is also sort of interesting when you think about it). I have a video game on my 3DS called Senran Kagura that allows you to zoom in and look up the characters' skirts. If you shake the screen, their boobs also bounce... all in 3D. I'm not kidding... (This is a totally Japanese game though.)
But another point that any female gamer will be able to back me up on, is that you're pretty damn lucky if you get even one female playable character DESPITE studies that now say that females make up about 40% of the gaming population. But if that's true, then why aren't we respected as much as buyers? It has to be because men are prioritized as an audience. This is getting better btw, but it still tends to be more like at least 5 male options and maybe 1 or 2 females. The exceptions to the rule tends to be games where you can customize your character features as a male or a female, so obviously options are limitless... but even then, there are games like Assassins Creed, whose designer famously said that they allowed for a bunch of different male character options and not even one female option because, "Women are too hard to animate." (Even though they had an Assassin's Creed DLC game that featured a woman, so they had done it in the past...) Gag. There are, of course, exceptions with games that star women (Off the top of my head: Tomb Raider, Metroid, Bayonetta, Bikini Zombie Slayers, etc...) but unfortunately, those games often fall back into the objectification realm where the main character MUST be sexy and almost serves as eye-candy more than anything (Metroid is an exception). The only game that I can think of that has the playable characters list tipped towards women is Hyrule Warriors, which just came out for the Wii U about a month ago. Out of 15 playable characters I have unlocked, 9 of them are women! It's unbelievable and awesome. But imo, Nintendo tends to have a pretty good track record with women characters. In Mario 2, and more recently, Super Mario 3D World, Princess Peach is undeniably the best character because her attribute allows her to float. I feel like everyone who played Mario 2 back in the day always played as Peach.
In regards to movies, there is a running theme where movies starring women tend to be movies for women... whereas movies starring men tend to be seen as more universal. In addition to being more "universal" they are also incredibly more likely to be recognized for awards, as well as just existing in general. It's not exactly shouting that women are "inferior," but there is definitely something going on that is creating such a disparity between the quantity of movies with a female presence and those without. I think a logical assumption is that the female voice and presence tend to be less respected or prioritized, either by the public in general, or by the production companies who decide what movies are being made. To illustrate this, the Bechdel Test is commonly used, even though it is such a bare minimum standard to determine if movies have a female presence that it's almost a joke. All a movie has to do to pass is 1. Have more than one woman in it, 2. Have those two women talk to each other, and 3. Have those women talk to each other about something other than a man. That is seriously it... which is why it's so sad just how many movies don't pass this test, and yet, we're so used to it, we never even notice.
Sorry to keep posting youtube videos, but this is a really short 2min video by Anita Sarkeesian that talks about the Bechdel Test. It gives a pretty quick and long list of a bunch of movies that don't pass the test if you're interested. So, an easy criticism would be to say, "Well, obviously she picked out a bunch of random movies that specifically don't pass the test to make her point." But then for a different avenue of discussion, she made another and more elaborate video that highlighted films over the last 50 years that had won the Academy Awards and tallied how many of the movies were centered around women and women's lives.
So, what was the result? Only 4 out of the last 50 movies (at the time of the video) to win the Academy Awards were centered around women exclusively. Only another 8 are considered equally focused on men and women, which leaves 38/50 focused on men specifically.
As Sarkeesian puts it herself, "One of the primary reasons that Hollywood continues to churn out movies about men is because we live in a male centered society. Most simply, male centeredness is an aspect of the patriarchy that shows us that we place and prioritize our attention on men and men's stories, the things men do, and the things men don't do. As a result, the images we see in the media often focus on men's stories."
The word "inferior" may seem harsh, but in a way, it does seem to me to be what all of this implies. Simply put, that women's stories or perspectives or feelings don't matter as much as a man's... at least when you're trying to sell something.
I've never seen so much gay sex as watching Torchwood, not that I'm complaining because I still loved the show and it didn't bother me.
I'm seriously asking, how do you think that drama series would go down in the USA, on general release, @Toraldris?
@federica Probably not as well. People here are having less and less of a problem with homosexuality, but gay sex scenes are probably a few years down the road (the UK is further ahead), especially if they happen often in a show.
If you mean Torchwood specifically... I'm not sure. I think it's only because I'm a Doctor Who fan that I knew about that show and watched it. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have been that interested. It's only recently that Doctor Who itself has become popular in the States.
You know, don't you, that 'Torchwood' is an anagram of 'Doctor who'...?
Yep I do. There's all sorts of cleverness in the Whoniverse.
Getting back to topic,@Dakini, this is another way there is subliminal prejudice against women in the media.
Having only read about the program ("Torchwood"), it sounds like something you might find on one of the cable channels in the U.S., but not on broadcast t.v.
I think that's a good example. About half of the movies that have come out so far in 2014 fail the bechedel test. To pass, a movie has to have (1) at least two named women in it (2) who talk to each other (3) about something besides a man. The test itself is "meant to determine whether women were portrayed in movies as people and not simply pawns of male characters," which is one metric for gauging sexism in media.
Thanks, @zombiegirl I'm not part of the gamer scene, so that's not what I had in mind when I asked. The gamer thing reminds me of the superhero comic books. Both male and female superheroes were somewhat sexualized, had ideal bodies. I don't know if the male figures in videogames are like that, with the super physique of Superman? But "Bikini Zombie Slayers" says it all, lol! MASSIVE EYEROLL!
I wonder if the obvious catering to a male audience subconsciously gives rise to a sense of male privilege, which then fosters the mentality that views women tech executives and gamer execs as interlopers in a man's world, leading to the kind of violent harassment that's the subject of this thread.
Someone should do a psychological study on that. It sounds like an obvious correlation. The more any group of people is lead to believe it is inherently privileged, the less compassionate it becomes, so it seems.
Absolutely nuts! One of my favorite comics from the 80's is where the Bechdel test came from!
Reading all these great posts reminds me of how deeply we are impacted by what goes UNSAID and UNSEEN. If you personally fall through the gap into a person who rarely if ever sees him/herself represented at all, what that INFORMS you of your existence can be major impactful. Your existence may be underrepresented, which throws your 'rightful' existence, as you are, into question. Should I be as I am? We know automatically when we aren't mirrored. If there is no image, am I really OK?
I see OVERrepresenting blacks and gays or other minorities as a corrective action, definitely over balanced but necessary to rebalance. I look forward to my grandchildren's movies and books, where two girls or two boys or a black girl and white boy just 'get together' as simply and without fanfare as a man and woman. There won't be a central political or moral 'drama' about two girls falling in love, it will just be a nonchalant piece of the plot, common mind candy.
In the US, there was a Cheerios commercial featuring a biracial girl with a Black dad and a white mom. In spite of the hugely common biracial relationships, not to mention biracial people all over the place, to actually FEATURE it, as if it were no biggie, in a Cheerios commercial caused a huge backlash, lots of drama the media of course exploited. I wish I'd seen the commercial itself before I read the articles. I have a feeling it might have gone over my head at first but then later I would have been wowed by it.
I started watching a very corny TV series called "The 100", about teen criminals tossed back down to earth from the orbital humanity fled to after a world devastating nuclear war. The protagonist FEMALE (white/blond, naturally) finds out that her friend, a Black youth, is in love with her. After this affecting scene HE IS KILLED OFF. Before he was killed off I was thinking "OK, wow, they are actually going to do this! A white girl and black boy falling in love." But when he was killed off I could hardly be surprised. THAT is disheartening. In this day and age, US movies and TV series still avoid even this most common partnering! Still too political
.
As I have been reading recent posts in this thread, it occurred to me that most "groups" that I could think of have expressed some exasperation about how they are treated by people in other "groups".
How else could they tell themselves apart
?
By intermarrying. By having an elaborate clan system in which only certain clans of one groups were allowed to marry certain clans of another group.
Agreed. In the interest of balance though, the vitriol I was gifted with as a male nursing student in the 70's was also a good example of sexism in certain female dominated fields. It was so bad that I changed my major. It wasn't any less challenging as a single father raising his daughter.
I completely agree that men are stigmatized as well in video games and especially anything to do with the superhero genre. It's kind of a delicate topic to discuss because I won't say that men aren't pushed to attain the ideal body (muscles, tall, etc) by this sort of media, but at the same time... There aren't any video games that I can think of which reduce them to objects by having the point be playing as super buff dudes in sexy outfits for the express purpose of seeing super buff dudes in sexy outfits (Bikini Zombie Slayers is obviously the title I'm drawing a correlation to. The name really does say it all, doesn't it?). The best I can explain it, the problem is not that characters portray an ideal fantasy, the problem is more when their entire point or existence rests on that fantasy. I don't think that being seen as powerful and muscular is the same as being seen as a sex object when you break it down into the essence of the stereotypes. While men may be stereotyped and stigmatized, I don't believe that they are being objectified in the same way. They are still people, a sexy woman in a video game is more like an object. When I hear men explain why they sometimes choose to play as women characters, they often say, "Because I'd rather watch a sexy woman running around my screen."
This is also kind of a difficult discussion for me because I really do understand that men's pov. Look, I own the game Bikini Zombie Slayers (but to be fair, I pretty much buy anything with Zombie in the title). So, I don't hate that there are sexy female characters, what I dislike is when that seems to be all that they are, the only reason for their existence. I'm not opposed to it, but when even I'm eye-rolling at certain oversexualized scenes or moves... I think that's kind of bad, heh. I also own the game Senran Kagura (the game where you can make their boobs bounce) and while it's appalling on some levels (it's a fighting game and the more damage you take, the more your clothes fall off as well), it's also a really fun game that has a variety of interesting and different female characters and much of the game is actually focused on how they interact with each other in the style of a "visual novel." So, in regards to video games, it's really not black and white. A game that contains objectification is not automatically a bad game, but there just isn't any accountability, unfortunately. Game designers make these games because they think sexy girls will attract their demographic (they're not wrong) and never think about what sort of a environment these types of blatant objectification may be creating... which we are now learning about.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your points about games creating this sort of subconscious sense of male privilege. That is the world of video games, and with the recent Gamergate, it seems that some of that sense of privilege is spilling over into the real world via the internet. Female gamers have long had issues playing in public platforms, especially in games that involve using your voice to communicate (like Halo, for example). From blatant insults to sexual harassment, this is something that is well known to female gamers, but hasn't really caught much public attention until recently.
Really? Did you get hassled chronically as a nursing student? I've never heard that before from a male nurse.
I'm aghast! This is soft porn! This is grooming kids for porn. And it's distressing that this over-sexualization should be so fundamental to the game genre that women gamers end up in a position of accepting it and explaining it in order to get whatever they get out of the game. Think of what being fed those images and roles constantly does to young girls. Those of us who grew up with superhero comics had something similar to deal with, though on a smaller scale. But still, all those perfect bodies did affect pre-teen girls' self-image and also their ideas of what would be valued about them by society as they became adults. And how they'd be devalued and sidelined if they didn't measure up to the ideal image. It's very insidious.
Thanks for sharing.
Yeaaahhhh the game is pretty awful. I probably shouldn't have bought it (but there's also lesbian romances between the characters and I'm such a sucker). And yes, it probably is soft porn. The game was released only as a download, which should in theory, keep the buyers as adults only since you need credit card info and such. But there probably are some spoiled kids out there that have their parent's account information saved and can buy whatever they want, whenever. The lines between games and porn are a little more blurred in Japan, which is why I felt it relevant to point out that it is a very Japanese game. It's subtitled, but there was no dubbing or even an attempt to change the Japanese text for most of the game. In case you don't know, "visual novels" are a gaming trend in Japan that involve a choose-your-own-adventure type story, usually leading to sexy situations (or even actual pornography). This game doesn't follow that exact model, but does seem similar to me based on the huge blocks of text narration it uses to tell the story. Now that I think about it, this game might have been a bit too far out of the general public's radar for me to mention in this thread, but it still does exist in the American market (I think it has at least one sequel as well) and they also have an anime version that we even sell at my work... so, idk.
Wow. Just wow. @zombiegirl, I wonder how men who play games like that, with porn situations, or a feature that allows the user to look up the skirts of the female figures, go through day to day life. What are their thoughts when women cross their path? How do they relate to women? What are their relationships like? I saw a youtube presentation by an American student (female) who lived in Japan for a year and got into what turned out to be an abusive relationship with a young guy there. I don't know if that was just a fluke, or if there's a correlation to video games. Who knows. But she posted her vid as a warning to other women foreign students considering studying or working in Japan.
This isn't to pick on the Japanese, though. I think we're seeing the consequences of a steady diet of these games on young men here at home, too.
But maybe I'm being an old fuddy-duddy? Guys?
I wonder if games like that are popular in Scandinavia.
I would be loathe to label something in that way, especially perceptive awareness!
Lobster just labeled labeling as a monkey mind process.
I know @vinlyn - but what distinguishes monkey mind from elephant mind, or any other mind?
Just questioning, for the sake of a monkey mind?
Don't go ape shit over it.
I would suggest the violence in games is far more destructive on many levels.
Internal, external, cathartic, self abusive and orgasmically virtual.
We are moving towards a game orientated culture, especially when augmented reality becomes the future mobile gaming sensation some years from now.
. . . however it is also possible to play independent of gender, species [come back 'Echo the Dolphin'] or even mortal state.
The line between virtual and actual being is up to us to trancend . . .
http://blog.gamerthink.com/p/using-video-games-as-spiritual-practice.html
. . . let the games begin . . .
I just sort of laugh when I hear of men or women painting the other 3 billion people that aren't their sex as a monolith because of some dumb video of boorish behavior or mean, anonymous comments on their blog.
I think some people view it as their divine mission in life to spend their entire day looking for something to be offended by.
I don't find it funny at all. I currently work on a college campus, and I recently found out that 1 in 5 women are sexual assaulted during their time in college. 1 in 5. That's not a joke; and this isn't about who can outdo the other in victimhood, it's about confronting the reality that women still face a great deal of discrimination and violence while simply going about their daily lives.
A concept that I've been thinking about quite a bit over the past half year or so is what I'll call the "either/or syndrome". I think it's a very human trait to think that things are either/or, but I think very frequently it's not a case of either/or. Let me give you an example: on this forum the either/or syndrome arises most frequently with people advocating that you can't be Buddhist and Christian...no, you must be Buddhist or Christian...as if one can't formulate a set of principles culled from both religions with which to improve their lives.
Jason is correct. "Women still face a great deal of discrimination and violence while simply going about their daily lives". Walk through a city where there are some construction projects going on and just listen to the loud catcalls being made by many construction workers when a beautiful woman is walking down the sidewalk...and those catcalls are often very overt and explicit. It's disgusting, and one could say the tip of the iceberg.
But again, it's not either/or. Frozen_Paratrooper's observation that there is a lot of victim-hood out there, as well (and some among women) has some validity, as well. I remember several women teachers in my school upset when the School Board hired another male superintendent...and at that point, there had not yet been a female superintendent in our very large district (well over 100,000 students). They ranted for quite a while about how sexist the School Board was. But, what was the reality? The School Board was (and had been for some time) pretty evenly divided between men and women. While the superintendent had always been a male, among the assistant superintendents (of which there were MANY) and other leadership roles in district-wide administration, a clear majority of positions were held by women. Among principals (of which there were in the neighborhood of 175), a clear majority of positions were held by women (and that was true for assistant principals and guidance directors, as well). The pay scale for all staff was simply a scale which had nothing to do with the sex of a person. And yet, there was this group of women teachers complaining about how sexist the School Board and administration were, despite the fact that the clear majority of administration in the system was made up of women.
FP said, "I just sort of laugh when I hear of men or women painting the other 3 billion people that aren't their sex as a monolith". Think about what he just said -- that BOTH men and women tend to paint the other half as monolithic thinkers. He attributed a very human to trait to both subgroups of humans. He didn't stoop to the either/or syndrome. He went on to say that, "some people view it as their divine mission in life to spend their entire day looking for something to be offended by". He didn't say women as a group do that, he attributed the characteristic to people in general.
In an earlier post I alluded to "most groups that I could think of have expressed some exasperation about how they are treated by people in other groups. It is clear, as Jason has pointed out, that women are treated shabbily in many ways in Western society. Blacks are, too. Latinos. American Indians. Asians. And many Whites will tell you they are, as well. I've heard, at various times, how shabbily Republicans are treated...and at other times Democrats. Conservatives and liberals. Football players. Taxi drivers. Store clerks. Teachers of electives. Senior citizens. Students. Gun owners. The poor. Christians. Buddhists. Long haul truckers. Government workers. Gays. Straights. I could go on and on. That's where the victim-hood comes in.
But having said that, we should continue to work to improve the life of all people and to eliminate unfair prejudices that different groups experience.
And, when we are feeling discriminated against, we should also resolve to get on with our living, as best we can. Whoever we are and whatever group we're a part of, we can (usually) endure.
^^^ well said @vinlyn.
so a timely reminder . . .
Of any two options, choose the third . . . or the Middle way . . . well that is my plan. I am very guilty of the either or syndrome
Thank you, @Lobster.
These are excellent points and I think we can all agree that the ego is mostly to blame for this. Probably the reason there's such a huge backlash against feminism at the moment is because men read the criticisms of the patriarchal society as a direct attack on them personally. A very clear example of this was when the # NotAllMen tag emerged. Of course, it's not all men that are causing issues... and yet, it seemed to be a necessity for some to state it publicly. (And of course, this is not the only example. You brought up a point detailing a similar situation with the players flopped, so obviously, women and any other group are not exempt from this.)
It's hard to not cling to the ego and see that not everything is about you and your particular defining characteristics. Recently, I stopped reading a popular online lesbian magazine because their rhetoric had become so negative... everything seemed to be an attack on gays or trans*folk or other minorities to them. There are problematic things in our society but we need to be able to discuss them in a manner that does not admonish the other group. When I'm constantly being told that my POV don't matter because of whatever privileges I happen to posses, we are past the point of learning... we are past the point where a meaningful discussion can be had that enriches both of our lives. I try hard to see both sides of the story and not make sweeping generalizations, but I am not perfect either. I still cling to my ego at times. But that is another reason that I often cherish this forum because most members can gently point out these sorts of unrealized biases without attacking.
Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say above is that we do need to be able to go on with our lives and not constantly inhabit the space of victimhood, but we also need to be able to listen to each other and grow. When someone is telling you about an issue in society that you might deem is a non-issue, it's very relevant to ask yourself if it is simply something you see as a non-issue because it doesn't affect you personally. I often have to do this myself.
>
Interesting.
And let's look at how black women are treated: Enforced female genital mutilation, rape, slavery.
Latinos: Definitely not members of Women's lib, mostly, particularly in South America.
American indians: Doesn't look too good for them either, frankly, as I recall a previous (Native American) member regaling us with a sad and sorry account...
Asians: Honour killings, public and multiplen rapes and Enforced marriages, anyone?
Whites: I'm not even going there.
The sad and mad fact many are overlooking is that these kinds of prejudices - specifically aimed at, and concerning women, and only women because they are women - has been going on for thousands of years.
Really though. If such prejudice and vitriol existed for any man - simply because of his gender - there would be an instant global revolt.
FP, you must have missed the part about the female tech exec who got threats emailed to her and twittered about her, and the crowd attack threat involving firearms that was called in when she accepted a university speaking engagement. "Outdoing each other in victimhood"? Seriously? It sounds like you didn't read the first page of the thread. You don't seem to understand the topic. I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I just wanted to add that the women passing by the construction zones don't have to be beautiful to get that reaction. A friend of mine who wears dorky glasses and has the body of an 11-year-old gets harassed relentlessly in situations like that, and she can't figure out why. She looks like a child. I think examples like that go to show that it's not about sex, just like rape isn't about sex. It's about power. It's about displaying power over someone, sometimes for no other reason than the fact that you can.
And it proves that there are still so many Neanderthals out there!
As for the internet, the internet's anonymity is what causes the nastiness. If you think you can get away with horrific behavior and face no social repercussions, you are more likely to do it. It's human psychology.
Yes.
As this is Buddhist forum, kind of
I feel it is up to each of us to empower each other's gender free Buddha Nurture [sic]
In the open Tantric practice of Green Tara Sadhana, I am a green teen goddess. That is a personification of compassion which is independent of lesser being such as health, wealth and outer ego shells.
I feel that the enlightened perspective, like a love that is blind but in fact perceptive beyond the form, we are in essence Pure Being.
. . . did I sound all New Agey? Ah well . . .
I just wanted to add that the women passing by the construction zones don't have to be beautiful to get that reaction.
Yes, that's true, it seems to be a habitual reaction with some men. Years ago I worked in a Buddhist building co-op, and it was refreshing to work in a team where that kind of mindless behaviour wasn't encouraged. Also we had a couple of women in the team, which was quite unusual in those days.
I don't think that kind of behavior is mindless to such men, in fact, in their world it may be mindful.
Not mindful in the Buddhist sense.
What I mean is that if a man is not committed to basic Buddhist principles, then I would not expect him to be mindful of his thoughts and behaviors in that regard.
You mean some men are little more than monkeys and some women little more than monkey mates. Can it be true gentle reader?
This is a cruel indictment of my parents . . . but true
_I will be a Buddha . . . I will be a Buddha . . . _
Well, yes, that is what I mean. Mindfulness is not a universal goal (even among Buddhists), so why would I expect a construction worker on a hoist to be being mindful? He's made no such commitment.
Of course, but earlier you said this: "I don't think that kind of behaviour is mindless to such men, in fact, in their world it may be mindful." So I don't know what you meant here by "mindful".
From past experience in the building trade I have the impression that the kind of sexist behaviour we were talking about is often habitual, done with very little awareness or thought. Behind it there's a lot of peer pressure, so it's an expectation and becomes the norm. I don't see how that is "mindful" in any sense of the word, which is why I called it "mindless" behaviour.
Once again, I don't think it's either/or.
But let's say there's a mixed group of 20 men working on construction. They begin their catcalling as an attractive woman walks by. Some percentage of those men are just acting under peer pressure and it's just an act. But with over 90,000 reported rapes per year in the United States (according to one set of data), some of those men aren't just acting the part. Some guys are serious and make it happen at some point or another.