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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@Lobster said:This nonsensical but so human worship of wisdom beyond its expressive capacity, denies us enlightenment as a mundane possibility and turns us into unobtainable Buddhist SuperGals.
Yes yes and yes. So well said. I need to break off that old crusty rigidity in myself, the unspoken pedestalizing.
It's an interesting way to look at adulthood. Now I am one of the gods, and come to discover that the so-called gods I projected perfection onto never had it. It's both a relief and a loss. You mean there is no real omnisciently perfect ideal that I can put my faith in and never ever ever be led astray? Ooooh noze.
An infallible god never existed at all. My ignorance and immaturity created this, not some nascent intuition of something true. This just might be humorous.
I am not denigrating the Buddha but elevating the potential Maitreya (it could be you). The hero worship inherent in overly submissive dharma modelling is not being dismissed, merely offered as something to potentially transcend.
One of the reasons Dharma is compelling is because it works for gals and boys, bullies and convicts, boat owners and yacht less. It works for Trumps and Hilton (stranger things have happened). How and to what extent we employ its tapestry is indicative of our depth of intent. The Buddha woke up, important yes. Instant Godhood? Me no think so.
“Before I had studied Ch’an [Zen] for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it’s just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers.”
~Qingyuan Weixin http://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/first-there-is-a-mountain/
@federica said:
This also makes a lot of sense.... Kind of 'double-bluffing' them to test their dedication to their quest for unconditional.....'everything'.....
I can't think of anything else that makes sense.
If the Buddha was a suprememly enlightened being, turning the wheel of dharma, you'd expect that he would have transcended sexist attitudes along with the rest of Samsara.
Did he really intend to exclude women from the Sangha or did he use this as a test, to see how the sangha would react to their inclusion? To exclude, doesn't seem particularly enlightened. Testing the candidate isn't uncommon and to let the all-male sangha decide on what to do base on what the Buddha had taught them makes far better sense. Like I said, a Buddha wouldn't be to concerned about something as mundane as gender, but his monks, on the other hand were not so enlightened. A Buddha wouldn't care, but the monks, who had their own little boys club with the Buddha might have problems with women being added to the mix. It would have to be a decision the Sangha made and the Buddha, wisely let them decide.
So did the Buddha make a mistake? Nope, he knew exactly what he was doing: turning the Wheel of Dharma.
@Chaz said:
A Buddha wouldn't care, but the monks, who had their own little boys club with the Buddha might have problems with women being added to the mix. It would have to be a decision the Sangha made and the Buddha, wisely let them decide.
I don't want to sound irreverent here, but if men can get their hopes up over these shaven-headed, un-made up, plain nuns, my beauty morning routine will become sooo simplified from now on
Or, much more likely, Buddha included women as equals, as much as he could in his group of traveling beggar disciples that made up the first Sangha. Since the misogynistic men in the higher ranks never liked this, after Buddha's death they quickly voted to make nuns second-class disciples so none of them would have to treat a woman as an equal. But that left them with a problem. How could they change something that Buddha himself had agreed with? Their solution was to pretend that Ananda talked the Buddha into it against his better judgement. It was thus Ananda's fault and they were only restoring the rules Buddha really wanted.
Chinese nuns with their shaved heads and incense scarification have a beauty all their own. As well as the beauty of their wisdom.
2
Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
I don't know why hair and makeup are important at all. I've found much more beauty in someone's eyes and smile. Making yourself beautiful is creating a fiction of beauty; I prefer the real stuff.
@Toraldris said:
I don't know why hair and makeup are important at all. I've found much more beauty in someone's eyes and smile. Making yourself beautiful is creating a fiction of beauty; I prefer the real stuff.
@Cinorjer said:
Or, much more likely, Buddha included women as equals, as much as he could in his group of traveling beggar disciples that made up the first Sangha. Since the misogynistic men in the higher ranks never liked this, after Buddha's death they quickly voted to make nuns second-class disciples so none of them would have to treat a woman as an equal. But that left them with a problem. How could they change something that Buddha himself had agreed with? Their solution was to pretend that Ananda talked the Buddha into it against his better judgement. It was thus Ananda's fault and they were only restoring the rules Buddha really wanted.
Interesting take on the historical aspects of the story.
I like ....
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Cinorjer, good thought-out possible process....!
It's a bit like (although not precisely like) the problem faced by the Catholic Council of 400AD, when they decided that Christ was indeed the Son of God, made Flesh and one with God.
What then, to make of his Mother....?
Jesus could not possibly have been born of a mere mortal female, a carrier and direct perpetrator of original Sin, just like every other human being....Could he? The very idea....!
'I know what we'll do - we'll say she is the Immaculate Conception! Then we can say that Jesus was subsequently born as a result of a Miraculous pregnancy!'
To me, reading any of the old sacred scriptures or suttas is so much more illuminating if you begin with the assumption that these are just regular people like we see walking the earth today. They had the same passions and weaknesses and biases we have today.
Weren't there women nuns of a certain level, but then all of them were butchered by invaders? And no more new ones because they couldn't 'graduate' new nuns because there wasn't anyone to preside over the decision/ceremony.
I usually think of a mistake as simply a word describing our unhappiness with the consequences of an action.
Since the Buddha only offered a path towards the cessation of suffering, as a Buddhist, I would only apply that word "mistake" to an action that diverted more folks off of that path, than onto it..
.
3
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
I usually think of a mistake as simply a word describing our unhappiness with the consequences of an action.
Since the Buddha only offered a path towards the cessation of suffering, as a Buddhist, I would only apply that word "mistake" to an action that diverted more folks off of that path, than onto it..
.
Yes. I hear you, and well, I needed to come up with a title for the thread without taking all day, so that's what kind of thinking on my feet I'm capable of, ha ha!
I didn't mean that I thought it was a big boo-boo or nothing like that. Just wanted to get the ball rolling.
:smirk:
Was the Buddha a real person or a glowing alien super being? I find his message one of a profoundly even obsessionally dedicated yogi, who broke through and moulded his former self into the necessary teaching authority and enlightening community to present his insight. The rest is commentary and hagiography.
Go Buddha dude! You did good and no mistake!
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Looking on the life and teachings of Buddha, I have to say I think @Chaz and @Cinorjer have the most likely scenario if we combine them.
If he just said women are allowed in and that's that, he could risk starting a schism. Turning the wheel, it was probably more logical to let the Bhikkus wrestle with it for a bit. They would make the right choice if his teachings hit home.
With human nature being full of the desire to control, it only makes sense that eventually, there would be arguing and perhaps even corruption.
@silver it would help if you told us the outcome of the story in the o/p. I'm pretty sure they didn't die at the end... I can't tell if it's a lesson in over consumption, that he had a plan and knew it would take too much time and energy to get to the new place or what?
@Jeffrey said:
Weren't there women nuns of a certain level, but then all of them were butchered by invaders? And no more new ones because they couldn't 'graduate' new nuns because there wasn't anyone to preside over the decision/ceremony.
So if an invasion had killed off all the male monks, there would only be female monks today?????
Lets not dress up the human condition, cultural prejudice and myopic religious views to be anything more than a lack of spiritual understanding or courage.
2
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
After Mogallana suggested to the Buddha that they might take some of the rich earth from a glade nearby and mix it with water to make a nutritious food for the bhikkhus, the Buddha said that he had tried that during his days of self-mortification on Dangsiri mountain and noticed no benefit, plus it would affect the healthy creatures, plants and soil of the glade area.
Svasti had noticed how the bowl intended for any extra food set out for any who needed more food, was remaining empty for days. Rahula, Buddha's son and Svasti had become friends and Svasti confided in Rahula that he noticed the elder bhikkhus were offered food first, leaving the younger ones to often times go without, and that he was so hungry it was hard to sleep at night and he said yes, it was the same for him.
One day, Ananda, after his return from begging, started to create a fire under a cooking pot when Svasti came along and offered to tend the fire. In no time at all, he had a fine fire blazing. Ananda then poured something from his bowl that looked like sawdust into the warmed pot and explained that it was bran that he will roast until it is fragrant and offer it to the Buddha. He was offered this by a horse merchant who had recently arrived in town and said that he would gladly give a handful to each bhikkhu who hadn't received any food. (Ananda had received two on the first occasion - one for him and one for Buddha). Then, he invited Svasti along to go and offer it to the Buddha.
On the final day of the retreat, the merchant Agnidatta returned from his travels and was shocked to learn of the hunger the bhikkhus had been suffering, and immediately organized a meal offering at his home, where he also offered each bhikkhu a new robe.
@how said:
Lets not dress up the human condition, cultural prejudice and myopic religious views to be anything more than a lack of spiritual understanding or courage.
Comments
This whole thread is all speculation.
Yes yes and yes. So well said. I need to break off that old crusty rigidity in myself, the unspoken pedestalizing.
It's an interesting way to look at adulthood. Now I am one of the gods, and come to discover that the so-called gods I projected perfection onto never had it. It's both a relief and a loss. You mean there is no real omnisciently perfect ideal that I can put my faith in and never ever ever be led astray? Ooooh noze.
An infallible god never existed at all. My ignorance and immaturity created this, not some nascent intuition of something true. This just might be humorous.
Thanks guys.
I am not denigrating the Buddha but elevating the potential Maitreya (it could be you). The hero worship inherent in overly submissive dharma modelling is not being dismissed, merely offered as something to potentially transcend.
One of the reasons Dharma is compelling is because it works for gals and boys, bullies and convicts, boat owners and yacht less. It works for Trumps and Hilton (stranger things have happened). How and to what extent we employ its tapestry is indicative of our depth of intent. The Buddha woke up, important yes. Instant Godhood? Me no think so.
“Before I had studied Ch’an [Zen] for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it’s just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers.”
~Qingyuan Weixin
http://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/first-there-is-a-mountain/
I can't think of anything else that makes sense.
If the Buddha was a suprememly enlightened being, turning the wheel of dharma, you'd expect that he would have transcended sexist attitudes along with the rest of Samsara.
Did he really intend to exclude women from the Sangha or did he use this as a test, to see how the sangha would react to their inclusion? To exclude, doesn't seem particularly enlightened. Testing the candidate isn't uncommon and to let the all-male sangha decide on what to do base on what the Buddha had taught them makes far better sense. Like I said, a Buddha wouldn't be to concerned about something as mundane as gender, but his monks, on the other hand were not so enlightened. A Buddha wouldn't care, but the monks, who had their own little boys club with the Buddha might have problems with women being added to the mix. It would have to be a decision the Sangha made and the Buddha, wisely let them decide.
So did the Buddha make a mistake? Nope, he knew exactly what he was doing: turning the Wheel of Dharma.
I don't want to sound irreverent here, but if men can get their hopes up over these shaven-headed, un-made up, plain nuns, my beauty morning routine will become sooo simplified from now on
Or, much more likely, Buddha included women as equals, as much as he could in his group of traveling beggar disciples that made up the first Sangha. Since the misogynistic men in the higher ranks never liked this, after Buddha's death they quickly voted to make nuns second-class disciples so none of them would have to treat a woman as an equal. But that left them with a problem. How could they change something that Buddha himself had agreed with? Their solution was to pretend that Ananda talked the Buddha into it against his better judgement. It was thus Ananda's fault and they were only restoring the rules Buddha really wanted.
Chinese nuns with their shaved heads and incense scarification have a beauty all their own. As well as the beauty of their wisdom.
I don't know why hair and makeup are important at all. I've found much more beauty in someone's eyes and smile. Making yourself beautiful is creating a fiction of beauty; I prefer the real stuff.
You're right.
Interesting take on the historical aspects of the story.
I like ....
@Cinorjer, good thought-out possible process....!
It's a bit like (although not precisely like) the problem faced by the Catholic Council of 400AD, when they decided that Christ was indeed the Son of God, made Flesh and one with God.
What then, to make of his Mother....?
Jesus could not possibly have been born of a mere mortal female, a carrier and direct perpetrator of original Sin, just like every other human being....Could he? The very idea....!
'I know what we'll do - we'll say she is the Immaculate Conception! Then we can say that Jesus was subsequently born as a result of a Miraculous pregnancy!'
Talk about moving the goalposts...!
To me, reading any of the old sacred scriptures or suttas is so much more illuminating if you begin with the assumption that these are just regular people like we see walking the earth today. They had the same passions and weaknesses and biases we have today.
Weren't there women nuns of a certain level, but then all of them were butchered by invaders? And no more new ones because they couldn't 'graduate' new nuns because there wasn't anyone to preside over the decision/ceremony.
@silver
Did Buddha make a mistake here?
I usually think of a mistake as simply a word describing our unhappiness with the consequences of an action.
Since the Buddha only offered a path towards the cessation of suffering, as a Buddhist, I would only apply that word "mistake" to an action that diverted more folks off of that path, than onto it..
.
Yes. I hear you, and well, I needed to come up with a title for the thread without taking all day, so that's what kind of thinking on my feet I'm capable of, ha ha!
I didn't mean that I thought it was a big boo-boo or nothing like that. Just wanted to get the ball rolling.
:smirk:
Was the Buddha a real person or a glowing alien super being? I find his message one of a profoundly even obsessionally dedicated yogi, who broke through and moulded his former self into the necessary teaching authority and enlightening community to present his insight. The rest is commentary and hagiography.
Go Buddha dude! You did good and no mistake!
If he just said women are allowed in and that's that, he could risk starting a schism. Turning the wheel, it was probably more logical to let the Bhikkus wrestle with it for a bit. They would make the right choice if his teachings hit home.
With human nature being full of the desire to control, it only makes sense that eventually, there would be arguing and perhaps even corruption.
@silver it would help if you told us the outcome of the story in the o/p. I'm pretty sure they didn't die at the end... I can't tell if it's a lesson in over consumption, that he had a plan and knew it would take too much time and energy to get to the new place or what?
@Jeffrey
So if an invasion had killed off all the male monks, there would only be female monks today?????
Lets not dress up the human condition, cultural prejudice and myopic religious views to be anything more than a lack of spiritual understanding or courage.
Good idea, @ourself.
After Mogallana suggested to the Buddha that they might take some of the rich earth from a glade nearby and mix it with water to make a nutritious food for the bhikkhus, the Buddha said that he had tried that during his days of self-mortification on Dangsiri mountain and noticed no benefit, plus it would affect the healthy creatures, plants and soil of the glade area.
Svasti had noticed how the bowl intended for any extra food set out for any who needed more food, was remaining empty for days. Rahula, Buddha's son and Svasti had become friends and Svasti confided in Rahula that he noticed the elder bhikkhus were offered food first, leaving the younger ones to often times go without, and that he was so hungry it was hard to sleep at night and he said yes, it was the same for him.
One day, Ananda, after his return from begging, started to create a fire under a cooking pot when Svasti came along and offered to tend the fire. In no time at all, he had a fine fire blazing. Ananda then poured something from his bowl that looked like sawdust into the warmed pot and explained that it was bran that he will roast until it is fragrant and offer it to the Buddha. He was offered this by a horse merchant who had recently arrived in town and said that he would gladly give a handful to each bhikkhu who hadn't received any food. (Ananda had received two on the first occasion - one for him and one for Buddha). Then, he invited Svasti along to go and offer it to the Buddha.
On the final day of the retreat, the merchant Agnidatta returned from his travels and was shocked to learn of the hunger the bhikkhus had been suffering, and immediately organized a meal offering at his home, where he also offered each bhikkhu a new robe.
Thank you @how!
@grackle: Chinese women are so beautiful, they can get away with anything... even with a shaven scalp
@how,
"So if an invasion had killed off all the male monks, there would only be female monks today?????"
I think the answer is yes. But they would probably have cheated the rules if it was men.
Also it was not all nuns it was only the most advanced/realized category of nuns.
@DharmaDragon. A very lovely photo. Within way places these remarkable women often excel the male Sangha both in scholarship and practice.
Male and female are the same, their just two side of the same coin, that is in Oneness.