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skillful and unskillful means?

genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
edited December 2014 in General Banter

On the one hand, of course, there are "skillful means," the thoughts, words and deeds that nourish a clearer, happier life.

On the other hand, there are "unskillful means," the thoughts, words and deeds that impede clarity and kindness and, well, basically screw things up.

Most of us can point to moments of one or the other (and sometimes both at the same time) in our lives, I imagine.

These are horses of very different colors ... at least for conversational or 'spiritual' purposes.

But when I get down to it and think about what I have done or said, left undone or unsaid, it seems to me that it really isn't that easy to separate the two. Having screwed the pooch in one way or another, I find that there may be quite a bit of positive atmosphere that evolves further down the line; having done what I consider a good deed of one kind or another, I wind up with mud on my windshield.

So it seems OK to discuss skillful and unskillful means ... TENTATIVELY.

But more than that I really am not sure of.

What's your take?

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Jeesh, I do this all the time. Seemed like a good thing at the time.... later on, "Holy schmoley, did I need to say that?!"

    or even - "Damn! I had 'foot-in-mouth' disease then!" and then I find that actually, my words 'hit home'. Maybe not in the way I had thought they would - but it ended up good....

    But then, you know, I think we all start off pretty much with a skilful intention. It's also down to the perception and mood of others, or the timing.... So many factors to factor in.....
    Can we be skilful all of the time? Even when it is our conscious intention to be so?

  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    a little good is good
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    What if we are the most skillful we can possibly be, but the person on the receiving end isn't in a place to be receptive of it? Often times I think our intention is what gets in the way. How often do we hear that some Christians have love and good intention at the root of some of their beliefs? "I'm only telling you that you'll go to hell because I love you and I worry for you!" It doesn't matter how true that intention is, and how strongly they believe it to be true, there is no preventing many people from feeling harmed by that statement. Even when we are in a place we can agree to disagree and be ok with them anyhow, we have to qualify it. We can't just say "I care for you as a fellow human being." We have to say that "I care for you BUT, I disagree with you." Our ego always wants to have the last word, to be the one in the right. Even after a hefty argument, our ego tries to find a way to let itself off the hook even if we are the one apologizing. We can't even express humility without qualifying it somehow, lol.

    I don't have any answers, but I appreciate the discussion. It sure isn't as clear cut as it initially seems.

    Jeffreylobster
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    Are we unbalanced or moving towards the Middle Way? A really skilful person of the Boddhisattva level provides the movement forward, whatever the appearance. Most of us have barely learned how to paddle to the far shore.
    https://greatmiddleway.wordpress.com/2014/03/20/to-the-far-shore-of-nirvana/

    Must be time to look into the essential Internet kittens or something . . .

    Where is your will, intention and resolve? Who YA gonna call?

  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    @lobster -- such a cuute pillow!

    I found this one today on my horsie Pinterest board - just had ta share:

    I owned a horse in the mid-80's for 3 years - it was my childhood dream come true, fwiw.

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    You can own a horse? I am barely in charge of my mind or cushion . . . :p

    Thanks for indulging me <3

    SarahTsova
  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran
    edited December 2014

    @karasti said:
    How often do we hear that some Christians have love and good intention at the root of some of their beliefs? "I'm only telling you that you'll go to hell because I love you and I worry for you!" It doesn't matter how true that intention is, and how strongly they believe it to be true, there is no preventing many people from feeling harmed by that statement.

    As a Christian, that is not something I would dream of saying to anyone. But being a Christian does not seem to go hand in hand with being skillful ... :disappointed: . One of the reasons I seek Buddhist wisdom in my faith.

    Jesus gives very few examples of situations where someone will go to hell. One is in Matthew 12:32 -

    Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Wikipaedia gives the literal translation of Holy Spirit as:

    "the spirit of holiness" or "the spirit of the holy place"

    -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit

    How is the spirit of holiness any different from the spirit of enlightenment? In my book, no person who seeks compassion for his fellow man is speaking against this spirit.

    In Luke 17, Jesus says:

    "Occasions for stumbling are bound to come, but woe to anyone by whom they come! It would be better for you if a millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea than for you to cause one of these little ones to stumble.

    [emphasis added]

    It would seem to me that threatening non-Christians is more likely to make them stumble than to have any beneficial effect. How is this compassionate? How does this show love - real love rather than conditional love?

    Matthew 7 says it all to me, as far as Christians are concerned:

    "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, "Let me take the speck out of your eye,' while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye.

    Seems to me that anyone who could judge another human in this way may wish to consider whether they have some log removal to do! Know I do ...

    Jeffrey
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    People's interpretation of situations is very different.
    Montaigne said that a word belongs half to the person who pronounces it and half to the person that listens to it.
    No matter how good our intentions are, at the end of the day I suppose our actions and words are skillful if the person at the other end perceives them to be as such.

    lobstermmosova
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    I try to make sure that what I say and do can't be perceived as harm, and if I am unsure then I don't say/do it. But sometimes you just never know what someone perceives! Even saying something as simple as "I care, I want to help" can be misconstrued by someone. Any time that happens, I re-check myself to consider whether my actions or words truly were motivated by compassion, or whether I fooled myself into thinking so. I can adjust how I speak and act, but in the end, I have to let go out the outcome. Many times I think our trying to qualifying our actions and statements is just an attempt to force a particular outcome. We can offer to help from the depths of our hearts, and if they take our offer of help in a poor way, we cannot control that. It shouldn't stop us from offering though.

    SarahT
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    I even try to hold myself to what another may enjoy as I speculate. A lot of times I keep to myself things that just give me a 'buzz' to say and just say what I think is helpful or fun even for others.

  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran

    @DhammaDragon said:
    People's interpretation of situations is very different.
    Montaigne said that a word belongs half to the person who pronounces it and half to the person that listens to it.

    shall have to read more Montaigne.

    well, intention is like the crux, it's like the metal from which your sword is forged. Using that as an analogy, you might say the speech, actions, dances that accompany that are like accents, points, edges.... Basically, it all works together to sharpen up and make a great skillful blade. But even if the blade is dull, the metal will be whatever the metal is. So if you hit a nail you can still use it as a hammer, if you need to poke a hole, or use it to hold up a tent...

    But if your metal is actually clay, well then, watch for rain! =)

    Let'sema good entention absorb into ze bonnes scandanavian pirate accent

    SarahT
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran
    That's an interesting analogy, @sova.
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