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It bemuses me here in the UK when people rant about the evils of "drugs", by which they mean the illegal ones, quite ignoring the massive damage done medically and socially by the abuse of alcohol. Oh yeah, and nicotine of course.
@federica said:
Weirdly, I've just watched Simon Pegg ACTING the 12 stages of drunkenness.
leaving aside the obvious negative connotations of excessive alcohol, and addiction - it was actually very funny....
He missed off the later stages - the ones past the 12 - which include involuntary urination and defecation, which is a shame. I always think alcoholism is such a glamorous illness.
Anyway, in a similar vein, I was talking to an A.A. friend - while we were running - the other day about a court in Germany which has ruled that it's okay to urinate while standing up (if you're a bloke):
And my friend said, "I used to sit down and pee quite regularly. But hey, now I'm sober, I make it to the toilet!"
He made me laugh.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@SpinyNorman said:
It bemuses me here in the UK when people rant about the evils of "drugs", by which they mean the illegal ones, quite ignoring the massive damage done medically and socially by the abuse of alcohol. Oh yeah, and nicotine of course.
Indeed. Anyway I think the "war on drugs" is a joke, just repeating the mistake of Prohibition in America, the only people that benefit are the criminals that supply the drugs.
I had a heat attack August 2012, lost 100 lbs and became a vegetarian . By May 2013 I had stopped drinking. I am fortunate. Once I decide I am going to quit something (smoking, etc) I can stop cold. My problem I never wanted to quit drinking beer . I drank for 40 years.
Had I known how cool Soberiety is I would of done it 40 years ago. Sobriety date May 19, 2013.
@Amthorn said:
It's funny, I had half a beer the other day and I literally hated the feeling of fuzziness that started to creep into my skull!
In another post I think you said you were an alcoholic. If that's so, what the heck are you doing playing around with half-a-beer?
Sorry, that sounds a bit blunt, doesn't it?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2015
to be precise:
@Amthorn said:
I have a highly addictive personality myself. I've been addicted to alcohol, pot, anxiety medication, sex, love, pornography, anger, misery, egoism, video games, cigarettes, sugar, caffeine, pretty much anything that I thought might get me through another day, or even to the next moment. I can even see myself getting addicted to meditation. At least, there's no hangover!
He clarified that he had a highly-addictive personality, and alcohol is just one of them....
But anything which could trigger a continued dependence isn't good, no....
It is true, I have not been good. I had a glass of wine a few weeks ago too. Honestly, I do technically qualify as an alcoholic, but I never cared that much for alcohol. Marijuana was my main drug of choice, the thing I tend to be unable to use moderately. The programs, however, do not differentiate between addictions, so I cannot claim a sober date at this time.
Alcohol was my drug of 'no choice'; I didn't have much of a say in the matter. When I started drinking, I craved for more and I had to finish the job once I started. There was no moderating, or stopping and feeling comfortable once I started. I was the cliche; 'One was too many, a thousand never enough'.
But the kicker was, when I wasn't drinking, I was thinking about drinking; planning my day around my drinking. I obsessed about it. If for some reason I couldn't drink, I was like a cat on a hot tin roof; crazy and bad tempered.
It's nice to be free of that mental obsession for booze. Once that's gone, not picking up the first drink is easy; there's no obsession driving me to drink any more.
I belong to a Buddhist Recovery program, where we choose not to focus on addiction or sobriety, but on mindfulness and freedom from compulsive behaviors in general. This works better for me than the traditional 12 step programs, I think.
@Amthorn said:
I belong to a Buddhist Recovery program, where we choose not to focus on addiction or sobriety, but on mindfulness and freedom from compulsive behaviors in general. This works better for me than the traditional 12 step programs, I think.
Interesting, however the 12 Steps doesn't focus on addiction or sobriety either. Alcohol is only mentioned once, in the first step, and there's nothing about not drinking or using in the steps.
The process is more about understanding the problem (it's not the booze or the drugs), then having a hard look at ourselves and then it turns us outwards to others. Step 11 would encompass mindfulness (the prayer and meditation step), but Step 12 is where the emphasis of a 12 Step program is, is about compassion; helping other alkies.
From the book Alcoholics Anonymous - Step 12
PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail. This is our TWELFTH SUGGESTION: Carry this message to other alcoholics! You can help when no one else can. You can secure their confidence when other fail. Remember they are very ill.
Life will take on new meaning. To watch people recover, to see them help others, to watch loneliness vanish, to see a fellowship grow up about you, to have a host of friends--this is an experience you must not miss. We know you will not want to miss it. Frequent contact with newcomers and with each other is the bright spot of our lives.
My A.A. homegroup only really discusses drinking when we have someone new turn up and we do an impromptu 'Step 1' meeting, since we hope they'll identify as being 'one of us', and keep coming back.
I've got the 12 Step Buddhist by Darren Littlejohn, which I found a good read.
@Tosh said:
Interesting, however the 12 Steps doesn't focus on addiction or sobriety either. >Alcohol is only mentioned once, in the first step, and there's nothing about not ?>drinking or using in the steps.
In my experience with traditional AA meetings, there is constant discussion about alcohol, experiences with it, classification of people as "alcoholics" or "normies", which to me seems divisive. I am sure the program works for some, but I have found the rote repetition of the material to be tedious at best.
Our program focuses on freedom from attachments, as well as on emotional openness and honesty. We don't self identify as addicts or alcoholics, we don't talk about our experiences with drinking or drugs very often. We meditate, share our experiences with meditation, and share our immediate thoughts and feelings of the moment. I feel this works better for me than the traditional 12 step program.
I should qualify this by saying that some meetings in the Buddhist Recovery Network do use a 12 step model, so I would never say there is no value in that sort of meeting. I have just never personally found much value in AA/NA/MA meetings where we may spend half our time passing around a book to read passages from. This may be helpful for some; group meditation is not for everyone, for sure. But I prefer it.
@SpinyNorman said:
It bemuses me here in the UK when people rant about the evils of "drugs", by which they mean the illegal ones, quite ignoring the massive damage done medically and socially by the abuse of alcohol. Oh yeah, and nicotine of course.
Not to mention the massive, massive abuse of prescription drugs. I know here in the US, the most successful drug pushers are psychiatrists and pharmaceutical companies.
@Amthorn said:
In my experience with traditional AA meetings, there is constant discussion about alcohol, experiences with it, classification of people as "alcoholics" or "normies", which to me seems divisive. I am sure the program works for some, but I have found the rote repetition of the material to be tedious at best.
Meetings last for one hour. I go to two formal meetings a week. Meetings are not the 12 Steps. I don't go to meetings to take, I go to meetings to do a little service (I help set up the room and I'm assistant to the treasurer) and find newcomers. I'm active in sponsorship and actively guide guys through the 12 Steps, which is a wonderful and touching experience. Watching the lights come back on in someone who thought they were well and truly knackered is..., well, you need to experience it for yourself.
The focus of the 12 Steps is heavily placed upon compassion; not meetings.
One of the worst things (IMO) that I've often heard is when a guy says "I've tried A.A. and it didn't work for me!" And when I question him a little deeper, it turns out that all he did was go to meetings, sit on his arse, and drink the coffee.
There was no doing the stuff that A.A. suggests we do; you know, find a homegroup, do a little service, find a sponsor, be guided through the 12 Steps - NOT avoiding the difficult parts, like Step 4, 5, and 9.
All they tried to do was get 'it' by ass-mosis.
Anyway, my point is, don't confuse meetings with the 12 Steps; the 12 Steps does not focus on booze (alcohol is only mentioned once), or sobriety. It's a program of action where the emphasis is heavily placed upon compassion for others.
@Amthorn said:
I have just never personally found much value in AA/NA/MA meetings where we may spend half our time passing around a book to read passages from.
You may have found more value if you got to the meeting early, found a newcomer, and had a 'meeting before the meeting' with him. And after the meeting, you do a little service and help clean up. I've had some good 'meetings after the meeting' while washing cups with a newcomer.
When someone I sponsor complains about 'not getting much out of a particular meeting' I ask them what they brought to it.
And of course, every meeting is autonomous; there's no leaders. If I don't like something at my homegroup I'll bring it up at a group meeting, and it gets voted on. If I wanted to change the meeting format, and the group agrees, it'd get changed. Our biggest disagreements are always about what's beneficial for the newcomer; which I think is sweet. Fancy a bunch of alkies fighting about how best to help someone. That makes me smile.
I can't claim to have a ton of AA experience. But the experience I do have (having gone to meetings with my ex on and off) taught me that there are vast, vast differences from one meeting to the next. Some are extremely focused on talking about alcohol. Some are very focused on God and the bible. Some are focused on the 12 steps and talking about them and the progress on them at the meeting. Some are focused on reading from books, going around in a circle. Some focus on particular needs of the group whether it be students or men or women or parents, or whatever. It really varies a lot and anyone who thinks maybe AA might help them might be best served trying several different meetings before they decide it's not for them (not meaning you, @Amthorn, I'm glad you have found a route that works!). Not all alcoholics need AA, though, and sometimes that is the vibe that AA folks seem to give off. Sometimes it's hard when you are instructed (by court, or treatment plans, or whatever) to attend a certain number of meetings a week. Often times, particular groups only meet once a week and in a small town, you are limited to finding any group to attend whether they meet your needs or not. It was hard for my ex to stay motivated to attend required meetings because of that. Some meetings would be held at the VFW with a small group of old men who spent the time chain smoking and reading from the bible and blue book. One meeting I attended with him, they told me I had to read aloud, too, and that being with an alcoholic also made me basically an alcoholic whether I drank or not...because that makes sense. lol.
Different things work for different people. I think a mindful, meditative group would have worked better for my ex than AA did. It just wasn't his thing. Unfortunately, his addictions killed him before he got an opportunity to explore other options. I'm grateful there are new and different programs available. Alcoholism is such a big problem in the rural area we live in, and because of the limited population there are very limited groups, and if the one group in your area doesn't work for you, that makes it pretty hard. All the groups here are very Christian-focused. In a town with 3000 people and 10 churches, that's to be expected. But it makes it very hard for those who are not Christian to participate in those groups and find a sponsor. One man I know travels 50 miles (one way) twice a week to attend a meeting he finally found that worked for him.
I'm truly glad it worked for you, I am just not keen on the higher power stuff, despite the "chapter for the agnostic". Fortunately, I have found a group I can feel at home with.
Comments
Simon Pegg could talk about the various types of potato blight, and it would still be hilarious.
It bemuses me here in the UK when people rant about the evils of "drugs", by which they mean the illegal ones, quite ignoring the massive damage done medically and socially by the abuse of alcohol. Oh yeah, and nicotine of course.
He missed off the later stages - the ones past the 12 - which include involuntary urination and defecation, which is a shame. I always think alcoholism is such a glamorous illness.
Anyway, in a similar vein, I was talking to an A.A. friend - while we were running - the other day about a court in Germany which has ruled that it's okay to urinate while standing up (if you're a bloke):
And my friend said, "I used to sit down and pee quite regularly. But hey, now I'm sober, I make it to the toilet!"
He made me laugh.
>
Ah, but you're forgetting the ultimate sanction:
Revenue.
Indeed. Anyway I think the "war on drugs" is a joke, just repeating the mistake of Prohibition in America, the only people that benefit are the criminals that supply the drugs.
It's funny, I had half a beer the other day and I literally hated the feeling of fuzziness that started to creep into my skull!
I had a heat attack August 2012, lost 100 lbs and became a vegetarian . By May 2013 I had stopped drinking. I am fortunate. Once I decide I am going to quit something (smoking, etc) I can stop cold. My problem I never wanted to quit drinking beer . I drank for 40 years.
Had I known how cool Soberiety is I would of done it 40 years ago. Sobriety date May 19, 2013.
In another post I think you said you were an alcoholic. If that's so, what the heck are you doing playing around with half-a-beer?
Sorry, that sounds a bit blunt, doesn't it?
to be precise:
He clarified that he had a highly-addictive personality, and alcohol is just one of them....
But anything which could trigger a continued dependence isn't good, no....
Alcohol was my drug of 'no choice'; I didn't have much of a say in the matter. When I started drinking, I craved for more and I had to finish the job once I started. There was no moderating, or stopping and feeling comfortable once I started. I was the cliche; 'One was too many, a thousand never enough'.
But the kicker was, when I wasn't drinking, I was thinking about drinking; planning my day around my drinking. I obsessed about it. If for some reason I couldn't drink, I was like a cat on a hot tin roof; crazy and bad tempered.
It's nice to be free of that mental obsession for booze. Once that's gone, not picking up the first drink is easy; there's no obsession driving me to drink any more.
Interesting, however the 12 Steps doesn't focus on addiction or sobriety either. Alcohol is only mentioned once, in the first step, and there's nothing about not drinking or using in the steps.
The process is more about understanding the problem (it's not the booze or the drugs), then having a hard look at ourselves and then it turns us outwards to others. Step 11 would encompass mindfulness (the prayer and meditation step), but Step 12 is where the emphasis of a 12 Step program is, is about compassion; helping other alkies.
From the book Alcoholics Anonymous - Step 12
My A.A. homegroup only really discusses drinking when we have someone new turn up and we do an impromptu 'Step 1' meeting, since we hope they'll identify as being 'one of us', and keep coming back.
I've got the 12 Step Buddhist by Darren Littlejohn, which I found a good read.
Yeah, I think that's the most difficult bit about overcoming an addiction.
In my experience with traditional AA meetings, there is constant discussion about alcohol, experiences with it, classification of people as "alcoholics" or "normies", which to me seems divisive. I am sure the program works for some, but I have found the rote repetition of the material to be tedious at best.
Our program focuses on freedom from attachments, as well as on emotional openness and honesty. We don't self identify as addicts or alcoholics, we don't talk about our experiences with drinking or drugs very often. We meditate, share our experiences with meditation, and share our immediate thoughts and feelings of the moment. I feel this works better for me than the traditional 12 step program.
I should qualify this by saying that some meetings in the Buddhist Recovery Network do use a 12 step model, so I would never say there is no value in that sort of meeting. I have just never personally found much value in AA/NA/MA meetings where we may spend half our time passing around a book to read passages from. This may be helpful for some; group meditation is not for everyone, for sure. But I prefer it.
Not to mention the massive, massive abuse of prescription drugs. I know here in the US, the most successful drug pushers are psychiatrists and pharmaceutical companies.
Meetings last for one hour. I go to two formal meetings a week. Meetings are not the 12 Steps. I don't go to meetings to take, I go to meetings to do a little service (I help set up the room and I'm assistant to the treasurer) and find newcomers. I'm active in sponsorship and actively guide guys through the 12 Steps, which is a wonderful and touching experience. Watching the lights come back on in someone who thought they were well and truly knackered is..., well, you need to experience it for yourself.
The focus of the 12 Steps is heavily placed upon compassion; not meetings.
One of the worst things (IMO) that I've often heard is when a guy says "I've tried A.A. and it didn't work for me!" And when I question him a little deeper, it turns out that all he did was go to meetings, sit on his arse, and drink the coffee.
There was no doing the stuff that A.A. suggests we do; you know, find a homegroup, do a little service, find a sponsor, be guided through the 12 Steps - NOT avoiding the difficult parts, like Step 4, 5, and 9.
All they tried to do was get 'it' by ass-mosis.
Anyway, my point is, don't confuse meetings with the 12 Steps; the 12 Steps does not focus on booze (alcohol is only mentioned once), or sobriety. It's a program of action where the emphasis is heavily placed upon compassion for others.
You may have found more value if you got to the meeting early, found a newcomer, and had a 'meeting before the meeting' with him. And after the meeting, you do a little service and help clean up. I've had some good 'meetings after the meeting' while washing cups with a newcomer.
When someone I sponsor complains about 'not getting much out of a particular meeting' I ask them what they brought to it.
And of course, every meeting is autonomous; there's no leaders. If I don't like something at my homegroup I'll bring it up at a group meeting, and it gets voted on. If I wanted to change the meeting format, and the group agrees, it'd get changed. Our biggest disagreements are always about what's beneficial for the newcomer; which I think is sweet. Fancy a bunch of alkies fighting about how best to help someone. That makes me smile.
I can't claim to have a ton of AA experience. But the experience I do have (having gone to meetings with my ex on and off) taught me that there are vast, vast differences from one meeting to the next. Some are extremely focused on talking about alcohol. Some are very focused on God and the bible. Some are focused on the 12 steps and talking about them and the progress on them at the meeting. Some are focused on reading from books, going around in a circle. Some focus on particular needs of the group whether it be students or men or women or parents, or whatever. It really varies a lot and anyone who thinks maybe AA might help them might be best served trying several different meetings before they decide it's not for them (not meaning you, @Amthorn, I'm glad you have found a route that works!). Not all alcoholics need AA, though, and sometimes that is the vibe that AA folks seem to give off. Sometimes it's hard when you are instructed (by court, or treatment plans, or whatever) to attend a certain number of meetings a week. Often times, particular groups only meet once a week and in a small town, you are limited to finding any group to attend whether they meet your needs or not. It was hard for my ex to stay motivated to attend required meetings because of that. Some meetings would be held at the VFW with a small group of old men who spent the time chain smoking and reading from the bible and blue book. One meeting I attended with him, they told me I had to read aloud, too, and that being with an alcoholic also made me basically an alcoholic whether I drank or not...because that makes sense. lol.
Different things work for different people. I think a mindful, meditative group would have worked better for my ex than AA did. It just wasn't his thing. Unfortunately, his addictions killed him before he got an opportunity to explore other options. I'm grateful there are new and different programs available. Alcoholism is such a big problem in the rural area we live in, and because of the limited population there are very limited groups, and if the one group in your area doesn't work for you, that makes it pretty hard. All the groups here are very Christian-focused. In a town with 3000 people and 10 churches, that's to be expected. But it makes it very hard for those who are not Christian to participate in those groups and find a sponsor. One man I know travels 50 miles (one way) twice a week to attend a meeting he finally found that worked for him.
Sorry to ramble on so much, lol.
I'm truly glad it worked for you, I am just not keen on the higher power stuff, despite the "chapter for the agnostic". Fortunately, I have found a group I can feel at home with.
It wasn't hard giving it up considering I never started to begin with as I found Buddhism when I was 13.
Well that was 10 seconds of my life I could have saved for something else...!