Deep Thinking
Telly03
Veteran
It seems people admonish deep thinking when it comes to learning, or practicing, Buddhism, and it also seems to be the point of meditation, to keep the mind from moving.
I feel that I'm a very deep thinker, and I feel that I have discovered so much by breaking apart ideas and examining them from various angles... It was from happening upon an Alan Watts video, whom I had no idea at the time was relaying Buddhist ideas, that got me deep thinking about who I was, and got me looking for more.
Am I really suppose to try stopping what has gotten me to this point? I feel I learn the most from my moments of deep thinking.
I hear stories about people going to a teacher with the question of "who am I?" and receiving a reply of "who is asking?" now that sounds like instruction, or invitation, to deep think the matter.
I'm interested on views from others if deep thinking on Buddhist related ideas is encouraged or discouraged.
Comments
I'm a thinker too, though it's always good to know when to stop thinking, if you see what I mean.
It is not about stopping thinking. Your brain will think, that is what is does! It is about learning how to control your thoughts and how to direct them for the better of your self and humanity and how to train your mind so it doesn't drag you around through the world. Dogs can be amazing companions and a wonderful resource. But a puppy does not become a K9 or a service animal just because. It becomes so because of very consistent, steady, specific training. Your mind is no different. A puppy's nature is to run kattywampus all over the place, chewing on things, peeing where it pleases. It has to be trained away from that. Same with your mind.
Not really sure where so many people get the idea that meditation and/or/Buddhism is about stopping your thoughts?
With samatha it is about that, or more accurately allowing the mind to quieten.
Of course. But this is not meant to be a long-term goal, as in, you seek to practice it for eternity so that you never have thoughts anymore.
Ah, that would be nice.
Where did you read that you shouldn't think deeply for Buddhism? I guess in meditation no, but there is plenty of time when we are not meditating.
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Who, exactly? could you give a reference or example, please?
No.
The Point of Meditation is to observe the thoughts, but not cling to them, or latch on to them, but to let them arise, manifest and pass, unhindered. To focus on calm, instead of frenetic....
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I think most Buddhists do this.
Define "deep thinker"...
It was from happening upon an Alan Watts video, whom I had no idea at the time was relaying Buddhist ideas, that got me deep thinking about who I was, and got me looking for more.
And who are you, exactly....? Have you reached a conclusion?
I'm still curious as to where on earthyn you picked up this little gem of nonsense...
No, in fact, it's quite the opposite.
That is what one might call a 'Zen' approach; that is, to permit the mind to not be obscured by the trivia, but to have sudden insight...Very broadly speaking.
You're definitely required to assess whether something sits well with you or not, and whether you can truly 'Walk the talk'.
But I still don't know how you would define 'deep thinking'. How does that differ from 'shallow thinking'....?
Some people tell me I'm a deep thinker, others tell me I think too much.
The second is probably more accurate.
It might be worthwhile for you to investigate why you are so attached to a particular form of thoughts that you are worried, or at least concerned, that someone might suggest you stop. Any time you feel that 'catch' of "oh no! Don't take that away from me!" it's worth investigating why.
Seems most men 'think' this!
what is the difference between 'thought' and 'thinking'?
think of this as a 'deep thinker'
we can go deep into .....
@federica
"Define "deep thinker"..."
Becoming absorbed in thought about an idea, especially new ideas... having to stop the video, or stop reading, to work through an idea, and to see how it fits into my experiences, which often brings up even new possibilities and questions to work through.
"And who are you, exactly....? Have you reached a conclusion?"
Yes, I believe so... we all know the correct answer, which can be described in many ways, such as "it", "God", "Universe" or as one of Buddha's Monks answered by holding up a flower, but this really isn't a question that can be answered with a script, which is something I was in deep thought about today, thinking about waves, and the relationship of matter, and working out how I can be no different than anything else, so then how could my consciousness be unique, it must also belong to the whole, and so on... this is what I call "deep thinking", in comparison to not caring much more about things than feeling good, being secure and having fun. If keeping your mind clear is the answer, then I'm moving backwards
"I'm still curious as to where on earthyn you picked up this little gem of nonsense"
Relieved to hear you say this... I'm not sure if I could go back and find all the sayings that I may have just misunderstood, but stuff like the recent response to my racial thread where one monk notices the flag moving, the other the wind, but they seem to be corrected that the the mind is moving, along with my approach to meditation, to focus on breathing to keep from running through all the rabbit holes of thoughts/ideas. I actually have very little issue with focusing only on my breath while meditating, but the only benefit I could really say I receive from meditating is a mental break and relaxation.
"No, in fact, it's quite the opposite. That is what one might call a 'Zen' approach; that is, to permit the mind to not be obscured by the trivia, but to have sudden insight"
I guess I still struggle with the idea of sudden insight, when I feel I have come pretty far, in relation to where I was, by revisiting ideas, finding new perspectives on them, and working through them. It seems like there is faith required in following this Zen path of discovery.
"But I still don't know how you would define 'deep thinking'. How does that differ from 'shallow thinking'....?"
What can be shallow about discovering a whole new approach to who I am, and having it make sense, and ring true... kind of mind blowing really, deep stuff. But I also hear that when people suddenly "get it", they laugh themselves silly because of how simple it is. Now I can contemplate this for awhile :0
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Why does it seem this way to you, OP? I've never heard of this. Are you in a sangha where deep thinking is discouraged? You might consider changing sanghas, if that's the case. Maybe it's just not a good match.
Yes, as @SpinyNorman points out, this could either be classified as deep- or over-thinking... I think the way to tell, is if you hit a knot, and keep trying to unravel it, but just make it tighter.
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Do we?? I sure don't! Just when I think I have it all figured out, something comes along and blindsides me... I have no idea whatsoever "who" I am... and frankly, I almost hope I never shall....
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That's not 'who we are'... that's "it is what it is...."
Not necessarily.
Sometimes, just sitting, is perfectly acceptable, and acceptably perfect.
I would describe the above, personally, as 'over-thinking'.
Just 'be'!
Brilliant! well done, you're learning!!
if you're 'still struggling' then you really need to let go.
If you clutch the little bird with wings of Wisdom and Compassion, too tightly, you'll choke it to death.
Cradle the little bird with wings of Wisdom and Compassion, gently in your cupped hands, and it will be free to soar, and reach heights of joy.
Remember, the Wisdom of Compassion begins with the Self.
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Oh goodness, please don't - just relax, 'be' and Let go!!
Intrigued! Do you never get "light bulb", "eureka" moments?
The danger of thinking you "got it" about anything is that sometimes, we set those things as correct in our minds and it closes us to expanding on it, or listening to opposite experiences from others. If you "got it" and someone else "got it" but has an opposite thought about it than you do...who is right?
On meditation, there are changes going on you aren't even aware of. Study after study show the changes in the matter of the brain and the operation of the nervous system from meditation (and yoga, too). You might experience it as relaxing, but there are changes happening you aren't yet aware of.
@SarahT
"Do you never get "light bulb", "eureka" moments?" yes, often, and I think it's like a drug that pulls me in to think about this stuff some more.
@federica Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to share. I'll come back to what you have written to "gently" absorb
@karasti
I hear you, I have figured things out before, only to change my opinion from seeing a different angle... A few times on this site actually, perhaps not immediately, but ideas can hang with you. I can see the danger of thinking "i got it" then closing the book on the subject.
That's a good question as to why it seemed this way to me, and I will reflect on this... I was actually surprised to hear such rebuttal on this.
I attended a Sangha when I lived in Hawaii, but really only attended the meditation sesssions... they were really relaxed about offering any consultation, and it seemed like a competition to get in line to wait your turn to have some time with the Teacher, so I didn't... I am contemplating finding something here East Coast and trying a Sangha again
Understand. And relate!
This "drug" made my life unmanageable which is why I have put so much effort in to learning how to quieten my mind. And the amazing thing is that things seem clearer now - there is so much less confusion as I have learnt to "go with the flow". I used to get so frustrated when folk told me to relax, not to think so much as I simply had no idea how to do it. I always had at least 7 thoughts circling around my head and had no idea how to get peace from this.
I have too many bad associations of "breathing" - years of being told I didn't breathe properly by my Dad and then being blamed by my ex because my breathing was so bad that he alleged it affected his breathing and made it impossible for him to pursue his opera singing career. So I learnt to meditate by focussing on a candle flame - as in Roald Dahl's The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar.
Thankfully, the discipline I had in researching ideas helped me with the discipline of learning to quieten my mind.
Wishing you all the best in your quest to quieten your mind, if that is a goal you seek, and finding the wisdom of stillness.
It's a fine line. Some thinking is just monkey mind. I would practice letting go of thoughts and noticing what is there in this present moment.
@Telly03 I think I know what you are asking about regarding"deep thinking". Are you referring to thoughts on questions that have no answers?
Well, you know, Buddhism is all about deep thinking and contemplation. And Mahayana Buddhism gets into extremely elaborate philosophical analyses of reality, emptiness, and all kinds of things. So it struck me as unusual that anyone would discourage deep thinking. However, some sanghas can get caught up in a cult of personality around the teacher, or some members might be more into the "cool" factor of being in an exotic tradition, or something. A sort of political correctness can take hold that discourages independent thinking. I don't know if that's the sort of thing you were referring to.
In any case, finding a the right sangha can be very much about finding a good fit, as with many things in life.
Yes, Yes, I have heard reference to this several times, and I believe I walked away thinking that I shouldn't waste so much thinking on something that can't really be understood, and trying to tie that as the reason to meditate to clear the mind... sounds like an odd connection, but I may have been there, I don't know... really need to rest it, not sure what I think now haha
or no, no?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti
Thinking deeply, without depths of conceptual proliferation is the 'Way of the Cushion' [Mr Cushion is applying for patents and trademarks as we speak]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_proliferation
If it arises, it has a polarity. If it has a polarity it has no real depth. Sorry.
@Telly03 Oh, you mean "the imponderables"? Like "is there a God", "how does karma work" and that sort of thing?
Well, karma is so complex, with karma from many lifetimes potentially manisfesting altogether in one lifetime, or getting all mixed up over lifetimes, it's truly impossible to puzzle out. All we need to know is that it's best not to rack up any more bad karma! And regarding whether there's a Supreme Being (or pantheon of gods), it's irrelevant to cultivating compassion and liberating oneself from one's neuroses.
And Mahayana Buddhism gets into extremely elaborate philosophical analyses of reality, emptiness, and all kinds of things.
Indeed, and there is some advanced logic involved, so intellectual rigour is required. It's not dissimilar in Theravada when you start studying the suttas in detail.
I remember for example studying MN1, The Root Sequence, and there you really need to be switched on intellectually speaking.
Yes, it is. And there is a distinction between disciplined thought on a particular question and mental proliferation.
Yes, coming to "conclusions" can be counter-productive. I think it's good practice to regard all views as provisional, and not attach to them too strongly.
At this stage though I feel me as a westerner over thinks or over intellectualises things.
I came to intellectual understanding through thought which I think helps but any insight I've had has been through observing things.
You can observe these deep thoughts, instead of "thinking them" they then become so shallow for me.
I think you can have a deep thought but then look from the heart. Not the mind. Then nature reveals itself.
Remember also, ego is thought.
With metta
I think that is generally the case, but it's also the case that early Indian thought was remarkably sophisticated and worth exploring. Again, it's worth making the distinction between intellectual rigour and just thinking a lot about stuff/
Bravo. That is the spirit.
I think @Earthninja and @SpinyNorman have explained it well.
Intellectual rigour, critical thinking, the scientific method, informed debate, cushion talk etc, all have their place.
I will perhaps open a thread on being, non-thought, enlightened Buddha Nurture [sic] or similar. For now I would as others have said remind:
These are my principles. If you don’t like them I have others.
Groucho
Something a friend once said to me offhand has stuck with me. He said, think well but not long. I think you can reach a conclusion about something or at least a good enough decision but still ruminated over it past anything really constructive.
As others have said much of Buddhism is deeply philosophical and requires lots of deep thinking.
Also, a metaphor I like to understand integrating knowledge or having certain insights is seeing through optical illusions. You may grasp intellectually how an illusion is false but your mind still sees the illusion. Realization developed through meditation would be like actually perceiving the falseness of said illusion.
Meditation instructions are just 'hints' like a book about riding a bike. Some things happen in meditation on their own and that is the way it has to be. As I've already said I would first try to let thoughts be without reacting to them. I've been meditating 17 years and that is still all I do. Nonetheless I do have thoughts and sometimes I have insights into how to solve problems in my life. But I don't sit there analyzing things; an insight into my life might just comes out of the blue. You can find out a lot about the mind in 'this moment' that you might not see from a train of thought.
Also when not meditating it is fair game to analyze. Just when meditating I would: notice the body; be in the present; notice the breath; notice thoughts; notice the space between and containing thoughts; rest the mind; etc...
But when NOT meditating knock yourself out with analysis heaped on analysis!!
The kind of thinking that is usually discouraged in Buddhism is using your mind to drift you off into the past or the future, away from the present moment.
Mindfulness and detached observance of your thoughts, but always grounded in the present moment is more the idea.
Yes a lot of the time thought is repetitive, confused and neurotic - everyone's thoughts are. We do need insight meditation to help us see. I think it's not so much thought that is the point - but ways to insight (whether that be reflectin on teachings on thought free meditation). Also we may have the idea of Buddhists having thought free minds - but conceptual things can really add to practice - like metta for example - ultimately I feel like it's the balance between healthy concepts and mindfulness/meditation. If it makes us more compassionate, free and wise then a thought process is useful - if not we should become mindful and cut back on the neurotic thinking habits.
Robina Courtin sees Budddhist ideas in a psychological way - as a science of the mind. She encourages us to think and reject what does not make sense for us. You can find her on YouTube
I really find Buddhism to encourage lots of reflection - I have a book on my shelf about the interlink between science and Buddhist theory - it looks really interesting. I feel Buddhism really inspires much contemplation!
We think thoughts are everything because that's how society teaches us to think. Well at least at University or college level - question everything, explore everything, debate everything. At the end of it all are we any more happy and free due to all this thinking?
Really, 90% of our thinking is subjective and neurotic - how do we know if we are ever seeing truth through thought? Many people in my life are deep thinkers - they are very attached to their deeply thought out values and beliefs but then often they seem very illogical and not very wise or compassionate - they are SO rigid (I think people could say that of me too). I think sometimes everyone should stop feeling so sure of themselves and develop more space - just simply watch and be open. Thought does not often encourage that. It's a very attached, self centred thing most of the time. It's not our fault but it's how we see the world - through the me lens.
Why are we see attached to our big contemplations? To what we think? Most importantly - does it REALLY help us or other people?
I think that might be an underestimate.
You got that right, Spiny!
Good post from @Vanilli on the constructive use of deep thought, which may sound different to those finding thought afflictive, going around in circles or the cause of Dukkha. This in dharma is the important distinction. Thought on imponderables or the best hairstyle for a boddhisatva at meal times is how can I put this politely . . . samsaric.
Dharma debate, even in cyber form, enables our wisdom, objectivity and critical capacity. Meditation often enhances our will, emotional IQ and mental clarity.