Bullying-Bully-Bullied & Buddhism
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Have you ever been bullied ?
Behaved in a bullying manner ?
Witnessed bullying ?
I guess at some time in our lives we will or already have experienced one or more of the above situations..And it's possible some of us have ourselves employed manipulative bullying techniques/tactics in order to get our own way...Bullies are found in all walks of life "school" "work place" "homelife" and even on "forums"
It would seem many bullies (well on the surface) seem to be unaware/or perhaps in denial of their manipulative bullying tactics and some might even feel that what they are doing is justifiable (in a warped kind of way)...
From a Buddhist perspective we know that the person with the bullying behaviour is suffering (possibly greater that the person they are targeting.....)
Avoidance if possible is one way of dealing with the bully, but it is only a temporary measure and does not solve the problem long term plus it could just boost the ego of the bully
And confronting the bully headon or bowing down to their every whim might just fuel the fire, especially if they are in a position of power.
To gang up on a bully is (to an extent) to behave just as bad as the bully him/herself (no one really likes to be singled out for being a bully ), this too could fuel the situation and possibly make the already suffering/insecure bully feel even worse about themselves,,,
So should the practice of tolerance, patience and compassion be used when continually being confronted by a bully ? And in order not to belittle the person (just bring to their attention their unwholesome behavior), how should one apply the above practice?
Just some food for thought and perhaps a friendly (if not friendly at the least civil) discussion for those being bullied, those witnessing bullying taking place and most importantly for those inflicted with the bullying nature/behaviour......or those just interested in this topic....
Comments
Being a Buddhist never means being a doormat. Sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do for someone is let them know their behavior is unacceptable and help them by forcing them into consequences for their actions. Whether that means involving the police, teachers, bosses, whatever depends on the situation. There is no one size fits all solution to bullying. Self-defense is also generally ok in Buddhism as well. It's one of those times you kind of flip compassion and have to understand that employing it means stopping people from doing things that are also harmful to themselves even if they do not realize it. Compassion and love are not always all sunshine and rainbows. Sometimes it has to take the form of tough love, and not allowing someone to do bad things because they are suffering.
I had a bully in 7th grade who would find me in the hall and push me down. On one day I karate chopped him in the wind pipe and he got the most frightened look on his face. He never ever bullied me again. Lucky I didn't kill him I guess!! I didn't realize how serious damage I could cause at that age.
Good on you @Jeffrey for standing up for yourself...How would you handle a similar situation now, with a few years of Buddhism under your belt ?
My best friend was bullied for how he dressed and for being gay the whole time we were in middle and high school. His biggest bully was a girl in our class. One of the last days of high school, he had enough and pushed her. She stumbled into a trash can, the can fell over, and she got to be quite a mess as it was the garbage outside the lunch room. Not only did she never bother him again,but a few years later, she and several others (separately) apologized for how they had treated him. The best part? Last summer we had our 20th class reunion, and all those girls were there, along with my friend, and it went smashingly. Everyone had fun laughing and reminiscing, hard feelings had been long forgotten. The bullies had largely had difficult lives, which is unfortunate. It took a lot of life beatings for them to soften.
Kick 'im in the balls. He doesn't need those as much as his throat haha!
Seriously I think as a teen ager it's a different ball game. Or in different parts of the world it is a different ball game we have a long time member talking about how certain guys street (literally) punk kid 'toughs' threaten him as he walks to school though he is a lot older and stronger. I think if I had actually squared up against him in the parking lot he would have slaughtered me because he was bigger and stronger. My karate chop might have killed him if I had hit him harder. So that was not ideal. I never tried talking it out with him. Maybe that would have helped. I don't think he had many friends either.
As with virtually any middle school, we had bullying problems. Not severe as in some places, and mostly not "old-fashioned bullying", which in my day was as much physical as anything else. This was more the "behind the back" reputational bullying, even including one incident where a group of snide girls put up a website -- on 2 servers -- called "The Whores Of ********** Middle School". Oye!
My relationship with my only sibling has been on my mind in the last year, my younger sister. She and I don't have that close sister-friend kind of relationship, and we both feel some loss around that.
When we were young, I used to mercilessly bully her, tease her, upset her and I thoroughly enjoyed doing it. There is a classic picture of us, I was three and she was one, and I am standing next to her with a goofy shocked look on my face, one hand full of her hair and pulling with all my might. I do not remember being punished for teasing and bullying her (just realized that). I remember the 'adults' laughing while they comforted my upset little sister though.
And one day while she and I walked to the post office to get the mail (we were nine and ten perhaps) I was giving her crap and she whirled around and hit me so hard in the stomach that I collapsed on the sidewalk, the breath knocked out of me. That was the turning point.
I won't go into detail here about it (right now anyway) but I believe I hurt her in a long term way, psychologically. My parents made their own significant contributions, but I did too.
And I to this day am aware of a deep sense of antagonism toward her. I have NO idea why. Could I STILL be jealous of her displacing me after all these years?? Good grief LOL!
I've been on the receiving end of bullying too. I bullied my littler sister, but the roles were reversed around other kids and remained that way for the rest of my life.
As for 'what to do' about bullying, @Linc's thread about the girl tweeting about a man harassing a woman on the bus, and the aftermath of it, really struck me.
It's like there is this 'new' crazy way to deal with bullying. Somewhere in Germany (?) this week a Neo-Nazi demonstration/parade was going on. The public response was to 'sponsor' each NN per mile walked and donate the funds to an anti-Nazi organization
I nearly leapt off the couch. YES!! This is how to do it
"Bullies" need to be dissolved, dispersed, made irrelevant. It takes the piss right outta them.
It wasn't so much that my sister HIT me that woke me up. It's that she literally shocked me physically, mentally and emotionally. It's what went through my head that stopped my bullying of her, not that her fist almost made it to my backbone.
@Hamsaka my brother used to tease me to get me angry and then I would snap and try to physically fight him. In my 20s I had anger problems with relationships to women in which I would 'stuff' anger and then erupt innapropriately. I give you credit for trying to understand your past and your relationship.
I dislike being bullied by discussions about bullies. There seem to be an endless stream of oh-so-well-intentioned folks willing to address the issue they often have not faced or dare to.
My son brought me to my current outlook. He was bullied in middles school (6,7th grade). He was and remains a sweet-souled type who had difficulty weaving sweetness in the boy-dom of boys. Now that he's older, it's easier.
Anyway, he was bullied and we talked about it. I was concerned enough to go and see some school vice-principal. But even as I made my pilgrimage, I knew I couldn't rely on school authorities: They might hope to do something and keep an eye peeled for nasty behavior directed at my son, but it was unfair of me to expect them to do all they did and become body guards as well. I made my somewhat heated pitch, the vice-principal said the soothing words and promised what he could. Then I went back to my son.
I explained that there were and always will be bullies in life. Dissecting motivation is largely useless. Acts are what count. If, I told my son, this kid continued to bully him, I said he might legitimately invite him into the woods after school ... away from the prying eyes of protective adults. I said I would back him to the hilt if there were any repercussions. He might even offer to bring boxing gloves so no one would get too badly hurt. And then the two of them could have it out since reason had proven impossible and there was, in effect, no where to run.
And that's what my son did.
And the bully never showed up.
My view is that bullying, whether physical or mental, is not going away any time soon. So the matter boils down to fight or flight. Is it the best? Wouldn't it be nice if the Gandhi in all of us could eradicate such difficulties? Wouldn't it be nice if we could TED-talk it to death? Of course it would.
And still there really are bullies.
When I was in middle school, I took a few karate classes. One of the few techniques I actually learned was to tense your stomach muscles if someone tries to punch you there. One day a classmate decided to sucker punch me in the ... you guessed it ... the stomach. His blow bounced off my stomach. Without saying a single word, I sneered at him and walked away. He never bothered me again.
Assertiveness has its place in Buddhism, depending on the circumstances. It can be a good way of neutralizing the bullying activity so that it doesn't re-occur. Assessing the bully's psychology and any potential risks involved would be part of the skillful means employed in setting boundaries.
When witnessing bullying behavior--taunting of children, or racist remarks, for example, speaking up can send the message that certain behaviors or views are not tolerated by society. To remain silent sends the message to the bully that they can get away with verbal abuse and intimidation. Again, an accurate assessment of the circumstances is important. And sometimes speaking up gives others present the courage to do the same.
Grounding one's thoughts, speech and actions in compassion can provide one with the basis for skillful discernment in sizing up a situation and finding the right words, finding one's voice. Compassion for those being bullied won't allow us to stand by and do nothing, if speaking out or taking action behind the scenes in some way would help.
@Hamsaka, I can totally relate. I have one sibling, a sister, who is 3 years younger than me. I have many times apologized for how I treated her growing up. I was ruthless. One of my earliest memories is of her coming home (I had just turned 3) and I threw a bottle at her while she was in the playpen. I used to stuff her in a sleeping bag head first and sit on her until she cried. I used to wrestle with her and pin her down and spit on her face. It really was just horrendous. I am so grateful we have talked through it and we are good friends now. We are very close and I love her dearly. My parents weren't home (I don't recall if we did it when they were around, likely not) as we'd fight when they were working. I think when we were younger it was pretty well controlled. I had a lot of problems not wanting to share, ever. i was a very selfish and jealous kid.
Now I have 3 boys and man, it's hard to control that. They are 18, 12 and 6, and GAWD if the 2 older ones don't sink to the level of a 6 year old just to be buttheads. Overall, they aren't horrible, not nearly like my sister and I were. But the tone of voice and the nit picking. It actually makes me glad on the occassion they bond together because they find a rule unfair. I could care less if they make fun of us and the rules as long as they are agreeing on something lol. But physical violence has never been ok in our house. I don't spank them and they aren't allowed to react physically, although my oldest has a penchant for throwing things, including pancakes...at his 12 year old brother.
There was an article a few years ago about bullying and how sibling bullying is so much worse psychologically because home and family should be a safe place. But it's a tough one. I so envy families where the siblings always have their arms around each other and just adore each other most of the time. Mine are all in bed right now praying for the day the others move out, I'm sure. Despite being siblings, you can't control how different they sometimes are. I wish I had the answer. Or any answer.
You understand the situation well. In our middle school, aside from the bullies themselves, the biggest problem was getting the teachers to take the issue seriously. And even when we all did take things more seriously, adult eyes can't be everywhere all the time.
hi!
When I was in 7th grade there was a dude in my classroom who, coincidentally, lived in the same neighbourhood I did. I wasn't much a social kid and I didn't want to be friends with him, and he got really mad and he started some sort of bullying. I knew I was in a dangerous position, so I decided to take some Kung-Fu lessons.
One day, I was going for a walk by myself in the woods located in here, and he + 2 guys (one of those 2 guys was my friend) were there and started teasing me. One of them even had a small piece of wood to fright me, but I was quite confident because of the martial arts lessons and I told them I was not gonna fight them on the street, and we could go to a ring and fight like real fighters.
I guess they felt intimated in some way (it looks like they didn't really wanna fight, they were just kids being kids) and everyone went back home just fine.
Conclusion -- I think a good solution for bullying is hissing but not biting. If it doesn't solve and you are in danger, then you do bite, ha.
Ajahn Brahm's approach to bullying is of interest...
Exactly so.
I bully my thoughts and arisings all the time. I even theoretically bully potential Boddhisatvahs into Buddhahood. [lobster hangs head in shame]
. . . and now back to the abuse . . .
My elder brother used to bully me mercilessly.
I ended up in hospital twice, due to a couple of beatings he gave me.
Once, he even managed to slash my arm with a knife, although admittedly, his intention had been to frighten me, not to actually make contact. It wasn't either deep, or serious, but it scared the shit out of him.
Sadly, it didn't do much to prevent his continued treatment of me.
The result was that for my protection, I was sent away to boarding school, where i spent the next four most miserable years of my life, receiving an extremely inadequate education, and being subjected to more humiliation by a different set/gender of bullies.
Ah, fun times...!
My elder brother and I have since, you'll be glad to hear, reconciled our differences. He has more than once, acknowledged his treatment of me was utterly reprehensible, and I know he bitterly regrets his actions.
As for the bullies at school, I never re-attended school reunions.
The school itself has long since been demolished and no trace remains, save for a short cul-de-sac, named 'Convent Way' as a nod to its previous existence.
So any thoughts that way are a waste of my time and energy.
And let's be clear:
There are Moderators who ARE senseless power-crazy bullies, with hefty issues, who cannot tell the difference between personal slight and forum etiquette.
I know.
being outspoken and opinionated myself, I am currently suspended from one forum, and banned from another.
The Moderators are male, and I have received countless PMs from members - of both genders, I would add - supporting my comments and agreeing that there is a definite bias against me, and other women like me, because the Moderators flinch at strong and intelligent women. It disturbs them to have to deal with that, and conflicts with their own ideologies of female behaviour.
One guy with whom I get on very well, wrote to me and confided two things:
One, that he knows that as a guy, he can get (and indeed has got) away with saying things on forum, that would have had him suspended, had they come from a woman, and two, that he actually created a female sock-puppet, which had already been suspended twice, due to strong and grounded so-called 'feminist' views.
That's Chauvinistic bullying. And completely unforgivable, and cannot ever be justified.
That is why I am very, very cautious in my personal approach to matters.
I look after this forum, and take enormous pride in my job.
I do my level best to maintain an impartial stance, and endeavour to not permit my personal opinions interfere with my Moderating skills.
I don't always succeed. I think if I were to be 100% successful, I'd be an automaton, though....
And it becomes a real tussle if ever I am in a position of having to deal with a situation wherein someone I would call 'friend' is involved.
At that point, I can only invoke the "Wurzel Gummidge" rule.
My weakest point, of course, as you're all well aware, is Grammar/spelling/punctuation... then, I get the itch I cannot ignore!!
Still, that's a minor fault I hope, and one I'm sure you'll all forgive!
Outstanding post @federica.
Personally I think this forum has the best moderation and technical team I have come across.
As someone who pushes to the cyber interaction limits, it is important to recognize the nature and causes of interaction.
and now for the serious side of bullying . . .
@federica -- I see nothing wrong with having a bias (eg. feminism or spelling errors) as long as there is some willingness to own them, investigate them, and, with luck, laugh at them. What drives me around the bend is when the bias is apparent but the willingness to 'fess up is absent ... or anyway slathered over with a 'caring' righteousness that would choke a horse.
For example: I really can get my knickers in a twist about hypocrisy ... and yet hypocrisy is clearly part of the MiracleGro of life. I ain't laughin' yet, but I'm trying. I guess my take is to embrace what I cannot escape and try to keep an eye on it without posturing or pretense or 'we' excuses. I am not very good at it.
I agree. I would say in all honesty I laugh at myself loudest and longer than anyone else does. I truly can be ludicrous at times. But I think principles are important. And it doesn't matter if someone else sees them as trite, superfluous, trivial or inconsequential. If they're YOUR principles, then damn right, stick to 'em... as long as you understand other people have Principes too. Pays to know what they are though...
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Hypocrisy is prevalent in bullying.
"It's ok for me to do it to others, but you have no right to do it to me..."
Poacher turned gamekeeper, eh?
Oh yeah. #womanonamission
I was bullied in school because I was quiet, a nerd, really lousy at sports, and didn't know how to make friends. The usual reasons, in other words. A lot of the students tormented me because they thought I was gay, although I was just extremely shy around girls and could never bring myself to ask one out. In those days, schools didn't even pay lip service to the problem, so I learned to stay by myself and not draw the attention of the lead bullies. I had a miserable time in school and couldn't wait to graduate.
I know there's a lot of advice about handling it, but mostly I think there is no "one size fits all" solution. The few times I was forced to fight back, I got beat up. Bullies aren't all cowards who fold when you stand up to them. Back then, going to a teacher or the Principal or having a parent show up would have made it worse, because then you're a "snitch" or a "cry-baby".
I suppose the best thing any of us can do is take it seriously, even if we don't have an easy solution. When we identify a child being bullied, either by his own siblings or at school, we can at least let the child know we're on his or her side and we're in it together.
The social attitude to bullying has, mercifully, changed dramatically in the past few years.
My eldest daughter's Secondary school actually had a Pupil Council with to representatives from every class voted in by their classmates, as members. A boy and a girl.
This council would discuss matters which would then either be put to the head teacher and staff, for final resolution, or they made decisions on certain other matters involving pupils, alone.
Reports would be submitted to the Head teacher and staff, minutes were taken and End-of-year reports included in the School Report to parents, every end-of-summer term.
On more than one occasion (but thankfully, rarely) the Chairman of the Council would have just cause to write to the parents of a child accused of bullying, inviting both them, and the child, to a meeting, where the bullied person would be entitled to file a complaint against the pupil.
This was an informal and voluntary process.
And it worked very well.
I believe, as far as my daughter recollects, there was only one incident which had to be passed from the Council, for the Staff to deal with. Otherwise, the majority of cases was dealt with effectively, by the cooperation of efforts between the Council and the parents.
It seemed that when children themselves closed ranks and refused to permit a bully to continue with their behaviour, it carried more weight than if adults had taken charge.
@Cinorjer My experience in middle and high school were much the same as yours. However, by high school I was better at turning invisible. I didn't make eye contact with others, avoided crowds, and very much kept to myself. I managed to avoid being constantly tormented, but it led to a fearful, lonely existence in school. I wouldn't wish the experience on anyone. I'm glad modern schools are starting to take bullying and ostracization seriously.
I got bullied at school too, probably a very common experience. I worked for a couple of years as a teaching assistant in a secondary school, and I found that bullying was actually quite hard to tackle, practically speaking. Bullies were often strong personalities who would lie readily to cover their tracks and intimidate "witnesses", while victims were often afraid to complain in case it made things worse. A serious problem, but not an easy one to deal with.
Bullying at work is also a common problem, I had to get involved with several cases while I was a union steward. Again it's tricky, particularly when the bully is a manager and the victim is probably worried about the consequences of "whistle blowing".
Well, @Shoshin has titled the thread "Bullying-Bully-Bullied & Buddhism"
I would presume, though I may be wrong, that she seeks Mindful Buddhist ways with which to deal with such situations and matters, should they ever arise in our lives... Is that what prompted you to begin the thread, @Shoshin?
@Shoshin , this is a pretty good talk as well by Ajahn Brahm on that matter:
Yes @federica I’m interested to see how members would or are dealing with bullying situations and still maintaining Buddhist principles, using ones understanding of the 4NT as a guide…
The cause, conditions and effect
It’s a major problem in schools and workplaces, as we all know, plus nowadays cyberbullying has reared its ugly head too (on facebook and other such forums…).and sadly is taking its toll
Depression >suicides are normally the results…
Ones past has shaped ones PRESENT and ones PRESENT will/is shaping ones future… So "now" is the time for change (The window of opportunity is always PRESENT)….
Sadly there are a lot of angry people out there conditioned by the environment in which they live/d...
There is a Buddhist online forum which has a very attractive layout and describes itself as a "friendly place" for Buddhist people of all Schools to exchange opinions.
At first I was astonished at the scarcity of comments posted there, and I thought it was owed to the fact that it has a hundred technical problems.
It can take me like half an hour to log in, another half hour to succeed in posting a single comment, and no matter what I do, sometimes the comment simply gets lost in the technical cinch maelstrom.
Unfortunately, more than the technical problems, the real reason why few people post in that forum has become more obvious to me in recent months: the Administrator is a bullying control-freak, who likes to play god and rules the forum with iron-fist stringent control.
She deletes posts, mistreats members she does not like, argues that other Buddhist forums are not serious enough, or that people make false claims or copy/paste comments from wikipedia, and closes threads on whim without giving people the chance of a reply.
So much for friendly exchange!
@federica Why wasn't it your brother who was sent away to boarding school? Or was he already out of school?
@DhammaDragon That forum lost not only all its members, but all its moderators (most of which had been recruited from among the membership here), and had to start over from scratch. It's now become more of a blog for the admin/owner, who keeps posting topics hoping to entice discussion.
Administrators are gods
when it comes to any forum and the moderators are their angels...
This is an extreme case of bullying where in fact, the Bully was duly punished.
When you find out why her victim was being bullied, it defies comprehension.
her victim was campaigning to keep the faces of famous women on UK banknotes.
That's it. That was the only thing which made her stand out.
They have appeared before, but new designs were to include only prominent male historic figures. She wanted to keep a balanced and proportionate imagery and reflection
of the status and roles of women in British Society.
This further article highlights just how pervasive such cyber-behaviour is.
And it is devastating.
Talk about 'the pen being mightier than the sword'....
If I ever even approach the very perimeters of getting to look anything like that - be sure to advise me!
Yes, that admin/owner even began questioning me to identify whom I might be discussing things with outside the forum. Absurd!
@federica I have to say you bleep... And at times you are bleeping bleeeeep.... and a brilliant example of how much you bleeeeeeep.
However, I am sure you would never bleep, no matter how much I bleep... bleep .. bleep, but as I'm sure some would take serious offence there are times when you can bleepand as I don't give a bleeping bleep of what others think about bleep; it's all down to you whether you decide to go and bleep, or not.
So I am certain, everyone agree what a bleeping bleeep you are.
Bleeeeeeeeeeeeeep
...\lbleepl/...
Because he was half way through his 'O' Level exams at school and it was though it would disrupt his education too much to move him. Besides (according to my mother), they wanted to 'keep an eye on him'.
I do not hold my parents to blame; they did the best they could with the tools they had.
I know, from them, that in hindsight they would have done things differently.
I'm sure there are countless incidents some of us might say the same of, therefore it's just one of those things.
As they say....
when it comes to any forum and the moderators are their angels...
Can't honestly say I've really ever seen myself in that light...!
The bully. Such a short word for such a complex problem.
I see the bully as nothing more than an inherent expression of humanities adversarial nature.
From the Buddhist perspective, bringing resolution to each of our own potentials to bully, is no less difficult than resolving suffering's cause.
The usual response will be about it all being a question of it's degree......which is also as true or false as it is about sufferings cause.
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Well, I'm sure that if she decided to pop in here as a member, we'd be more than delighted to welcome her with a greeting befitting such an illustrious Forum Founder!
Be sure to let us know if the invitation is received!
If you ever use twitter, look around for #gamergate and you will find bullying to an extent that is shocking. Chris Kluwe follows it and posts about it a lot. I know a lot of it is just dumb kids posting idiotic comments (mostly to women in the tech fields...@Linc I think posted a topic about this a little while ago) but the degree to which they take it is incredibly sad and just plain sick. From threats of rape and murder to doxing them (finding personal information and posting it online for the purpose of harassing them) even reporting false 911 calls to the address so that people get in trouble for it and can be arrested. It's astounding the lengths people will go. Women aren't the only victims, there are a lot of upstanding men who support them who are also victims. But it's a pretty horrendous round of bullying (and far beyond bullying) that has been going on for months now. Some people have removed all internet traces of themselves and disappeared because they are afraid to live at home and afraid for the lives of their kids.
Any time I am unsure how it can get worse, plenty of people are ready to show me exactly how much worse it can get. Sometimes it seems the only real answer to some of these problems is to simplify our lives and stop interacting on that level. Sometimes has to bottom out somewhere, and it doesn't seem like it'll be with those who enjoy torturing others. I don't mean in a manner of running away, but just in investigating how much something is worth to you. Is posting on a blog on the internet about video games worth risking your safety? Your family? Your sanity?
She was banned from here long ago, because she only came here to troll, and laugh at people. The infamous DD became her Global Moderator. Seemingly a match made in heaven. Or....hell.
Yes, there now seem to be two forums like that.
Yes, it seems oddly contagious.
No matter how I try to interpret this, it ends with, "which means he's lost his marbles." I suggest stepping away from the keyboard for a bit.
Care to share? surely you don't mean here..?
I think bullying comes from our inherent lust for power. Give us authority over something, and there is a part of us that can respond by feeding that lust. Being human, anything we try to say beyond that runs into our wide variety of personalities and behavior. Put me in charge of someone and I want to protect them and make them happy. Put someone else in a position of power and they want to take control and force others to make him happy. Go figure.
It's really sad because, yes, she posts topics to entice discussions, but some go altogether unanswered, or are short-lived, depending on this admin's mood.
If somebody says something which rubs her up the wrong way or goes against what she believes to be right, she closes the thread, or raps the member's knuckles in a very unpolite way.
On a thread on vegetarianism she was extremely unpolite to a new member who identified himself as meat-eater.
By the time I pointed it out to her, she had already watered down her comment.
She edits a lot.
After I made a comment once, she answered by referring to something I had said here, as if she wanted me to be aware that she keeps a vigilante eye on what I write on other forums.
As if I cared a hoot about that or had anything to hide, for that matter.
Oh no, Spiny.
If you regularly contribute on other Buddhist sites, believe me: there is no other site like that one.
Which seems to me a big shame for newcomers to Buddhism, and a complete waste of technological means.
@DhammaDragon
Why then contribute to those sites at all?
It's a serious question.