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Indiana Governor Stands By 'Religious Freedom' Law But Promises Fix
Interestingly, tonight "The Good Wife" had the usual two plots, one of which was about this general topic. It was extremely well done. If you have cable and can go back and watch recent programs, I recommend it.
@vinlyn said:
Interestingly, tonight "The Good Wife" had the usual two plots, one of which was about this general topic. It was extremely well done. If you have cable and can go back and watch recent programs, I recommend it.
Really? I have no idea what that show is about, so I'll have to flip over to the repeat menu and see how they handle it.
@karasti I've watched my mother's beliefs soften over the years. She's most definitely a fundamentalist Christian very involved in her ministry but also a very compassionate and welcoming person. At one time she was very pro-death penalty and thought gays were demon possessed pedophiles, and had the usual right wing attitude toward the black community. Then she met people from prison including people who had been on death row and saw how unfair the system was, and also met people who were gay or had people she knew finally come out as gay, and even started going to predominately black churches (she loves the singing). So people's beliefs can change, if they're willing to actually connect with other people.
@Hamsaka said:
I have an African American acquaintance, who is a Christian, and admitted she thought Christians ought to have the religious freedom to deny business and services to people that violate their moral code. She's my age, and fully cognizant of how discrimination has affected her life. But to her, this ISN'T discrimination, it's not the same kind, anyway, because it is religious in origin.
one would think that, because he/she faced discrimination he/she would be more sympathetic toward other being discriminated against.
@Cinorjer said:
karasti I've watched my mother's beliefs soften over the years. She's most definitely a fundamentalist Christian very involved in her ministry but also a very compassionate and welcoming person. At one time she was very pro-death penalty and thought gays were demon possessed pedophiles, and had the usual right wing attitude toward the black community. Then she met people from prison including people who had been on death row and saw how unfair the system was, and also met people who were gay or had people she knew finally come out as gay, and even started going to predominately black churches (she loves the singing). So people's beliefs can change, if they're willing to actually connect with other people.
I was kind of chuckling when I read that, thinking back to the school where I was first hired as a vice-principal. After being hired, but before reporting to work, a colleague said, "You know, that's the gayest school in F------ County." I asked him what he meant and he said that there were many gay men on the staff there. Well, as it turned out, gay men made up nearly 15% of the staff...a staff hired by a very, very conservative man principal who would never be able to admit that each of those men were gay, even though in some cases it was very obvious. 30 years later, I suspect he would become apoplectic if the topic came up, because he was only quietly negative about gay people, not one of the public ranters.
The problem is that the general public, for decades, shunted the gay population off into the shadows through their rejection, which limited awareness of people in that subculture. And even those who, in their hearts, they knew were gay, they pretended they weren't. I actually think television has helped make many Americans more comfortable with gay people, despite how unrealistic some of the portrayals have been.
5
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@Nichy said:
one would think that, because he/she faced discrimination he/she would be more sympathetic toward other being discriminated against.
You would think that, wouldn't you . . .
This is an example of how powerful the distortion can be. It really is different because it's GOD we're talking about here. And they really can't comprende' that that since it's GOD that it could possibly be 'bad'. Or how anyone else could dare to think so?
But wait . . . it's just gettin' gay married that's the problem. They'll sell pizzas and flowers to any ole gay as long as they aren't getting married and mis=using the pizza or flowers in an unholy Christian effigy. C'n send a person straight to Hell doing that.
0
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
Did anyone see the update to the religious freedom law?
Earlier Thursday, business, civic and sports leaders who have strongly called for a fix to the legislation flanked Indiana Republicans as they announced sexual orientation and gender identity will be explicitly protected in the new law.
Senate President Pro Tem David Long, in unveiling the revised law, said it will "unequivocably state that Indiana's (religious freedom) law does not and will not be able to discriminate against anyone, anywhere at any time."
The amendment means that for the first time an Indiana law will include the language "sexual orientation" and "gender identity."
The revised law potentially could quell concerns that have made Indiana the focus of national derision for one very intense week.
"It was never intended to discriminate against anyone," Long said. "That perception led to the national protests we've seen."
The compromise legislation specifies that the new religious freedom law cannot be used as a legal defense to discriminate against patrons based on their sexual orientation or gender identity.
It goes much further than a "preamble" that was proposed earlier in the week, and, if it stands, would be the first time any protections against discrimination have been extended to gays and lesbians in state law. But it doesn't go as far as establishing gays and lesbians as a protected class of citizens statewide or repealing the law outright, both things that Republican leaders have said they could not support.
A draft circulated early Wednesday said that the new "religious freedom" law does not authorize a provider — including businesses or individuals — to refuse to offer or provide its services, facilities, goods or public accommodation to any member of the public based on sexual orientation or gender identity, in addition to race, color, religion, ancestry, age, national origin, disability, sex or military service.
It exempts churches or other nonprofit religious organizations — including affiliated schools — from the definition of "provider."
Apparently this hasn't gone through yet... but if it does, it will essentially make the entire law a moot point since America already has freedom of religion. And actually, even better than a moot point, where it might have been kind of legal* to discriminate against LGBT individuals before, this law would actually end up making this sort of action ILLEGAL.
I really really hope it goes through. It would be ironically hilarious.
*In that there are no current laws on the books to protect LGBT people.
It's funny how those things work out. The main reason MN passed the gay marriage law is because Michele Bachmann insisted on trying to put in an anti-gay amendment. Not only did her idea not fly, but it opened the door to legalize gay marriage. Yay!
i hope it passes, too. It's amazing how many states don't have sex orientation protection.
*In that there are no current laws on the books to protect LGBT people.
It's finally getting through MY thick skull that the essence or intent of the original iteration of this religious freedom law was NOT to legalize discrimination of LGBTQI and so forth individuals.
They (the religious) want the FREEDOM to not be charged with discrimination if they choose not to perform their business services FOR A GAY MARRIAGE. It's the gay MARRIAGE that they want nothing to do with. They don't want to accidentally or on purpose 'participate' in such an ungodly, unrighteous 'sin' as create a floral arrangement that will grace the altar at a GAY MARRIAGE.
I don't know about anyone else, but this distinction took a while for me to 'get'. Call me dense, and I'll agree.
Now -- what they want is that no litigious LGBTQI and so forth people to be able to SUE them if they refuse to make n bake twenty pizzas for a GAY WEDDING. In spite of there being no biblical proscriptions against GAY folks or GAY weddings in the first place, and in support of the fervor that follows from this false dilemma that no scriptural Christian doctrine actually condemns in the first place, many Christians have as much as convinced themselves the Bible condemns modern 'gays'. This is SO easily hung out to dry, but peep's will be needing to do the tribal us versus them thing, unfortunately.
The good news is, after this -- the pool has been pooped in, and you can't unpoop it.
The literal essence of the Religious Freedom bill nonsense is untouched because it was never recognized in the first place, and will hopefully remain unrecognized. Christians will have more evidence that they are persecuted and misunderstood -- which indeed they were, but they brought it on themselves. Why Christians have chosen to focus on 'homosexuality' as opposed to the large variety of other common biblical sins which they do themselves everyday they wear a mixed fabric shirt or a woman speaks out in church, well, maybe they'll take a long look at this someday. They did this to themselves, and I'm grateful they did.
You know, I have wondered what would happen if an Evangelical Born Again walked into the bakery shop to order a wedding cake and the proprietor said, "I'm Catholic, and I don't believe in the way you worship God, so I can't bake a cake for you. Go to hell you godless heathen!"
By the way, after "the pool has been pooped in, and you can't unpoop it", I know why the YMCA pool has been drained in cleaned over the past few days. Thanks a lot, @Hamsaka!
I was just brushing up on history and reading about William Penn, and came across this -- which seems somehow related to this broader discussion: By abolishing the church's authority over the congregation, Quakerism not only extended the Protestant Reformation more radically, but helped extend the most important principle of modern political history – the rights of the individual – upon which modern democracies were later founded.
The church is almost everything to the Black community. I will say though...once I explain this is a civil rights issue....You will/would be surprised to see the penny drop. Black, church folks do not want to be told that they have to think being gay is ok (supposedly, god doesn't approve)...I explain, they can choose who they want to have sex with...but do they want the government controlling that?...as in laws. To be fair...everyone loves the side of the issue they are on..."Hey, I got my civil rights...F$^% the rest of them...they weren't worried about me way back when"....You know how that goes...but alot of reaching the Black community about this gay issue is going to be letting them know it's ok on Sunday morning to think someone is going to hell....but we can't pass laws based on that. What if we decide brown eyed people can't marry blued eyed people...or if your missing an arm, you can't sleep in a double bed...only single beds...afterall, it will be for a greater good, right? What you think is one thing...but making laws around it, is another.
It's sad to say....but the Black church is helping this hate train along....money wise and otherwise.
Religion may be losing it's hold on the White community...but Black folks? Here in the Bible belt? Hell no....holding on for dear life...To be fair again...here in the Bible belt are those white conservative tea party people who are hanging on for dear life and sure seem ok co-signing the black church riding along....Person A hates person B...but they will both get together to hate on Person C. Shamefull stuff...
Comments
Interestingly, tonight "The Good Wife" had the usual two plots, one of which was about this general topic. It was extremely well done. If you have cable and can go back and watch recent programs, I recommend it.
Really? I have no idea what that show is about, so I'll have to flip over to the repeat menu and see how they handle it.
@karasti I've watched my mother's beliefs soften over the years. She's most definitely a fundamentalist Christian very involved in her ministry but also a very compassionate and welcoming person. At one time she was very pro-death penalty and thought gays were demon possessed pedophiles, and had the usual right wing attitude toward the black community. Then she met people from prison including people who had been on death row and saw how unfair the system was, and also met people who were gay or had people she knew finally come out as gay, and even started going to predominately black churches (she loves the singing). So people's beliefs can change, if they're willing to actually connect with other people.
@Cinorjer your mother is a good woman, who's willing to find her own truth...
one would think that, because he/she faced discrimination he/she would be more sympathetic toward other being discriminated against.
I was kind of chuckling when I read that, thinking back to the school where I was first hired as a vice-principal. After being hired, but before reporting to work, a colleague said, "You know, that's the gayest school in F------ County." I asked him what he meant and he said that there were many gay men on the staff there. Well, as it turned out, gay men made up nearly 15% of the staff...a staff hired by a very, very conservative man principal who would never be able to admit that each of those men were gay, even though in some cases it was very obvious. 30 years later, I suspect he would become apoplectic if the topic came up, because he was only quietly negative about gay people, not one of the public ranters.
The problem is that the general public, for decades, shunted the gay population off into the shadows through their rejection, which limited awareness of people in that subculture. And even those who, in their hearts, they knew were gay, they pretended they weren't. I actually think television has helped make many Americans more comfortable with gay people, despite how unrealistic some of the portrayals have been.
You would think that, wouldn't you . . .
This is an example of how powerful the distortion can be. It really is different because it's GOD we're talking about here. And they really can't comprende' that that since it's GOD that it could possibly be 'bad'. Or how anyone else could dare to think so?
But wait . . . it's just gettin' gay married that's the problem. They'll sell pizzas and flowers to any ole gay as long as they aren't getting married and mis=using the pizza or flowers in an unholy Christian effigy. C'n send a person straight to Hell doing that.
Did anyone see the update to the religious freedom law?
usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/02/indiana-religious-freedom-law-deal-gay-discrimination/70819106/
Apparently this hasn't gone through yet... but if it does, it will essentially make the entire law a moot point since America already has freedom of religion. And actually, even better than a moot point, where it might have been kind of legal* to discriminate against LGBT individuals before, this law would actually end up making this sort of action ILLEGAL.
I really really hope it goes through. It would be ironically hilarious.
*In that there are no current laws on the books to protect LGBT people.
It's funny how those things work out. The main reason MN passed the gay marriage law is because Michele Bachmann insisted on trying to put in an anti-gay amendment. Not only did her idea not fly, but it opened the door to legalize gay marriage. Yay!
i hope it passes, too. It's amazing how many states don't have sex orientation protection.
It's finally getting through MY thick skull that the essence or intent of the original iteration of this religious freedom law was NOT to legalize discrimination of LGBTQI and so forth individuals.
They (the religious) want the FREEDOM to not be charged with discrimination if they choose not to perform their business services FOR A GAY MARRIAGE. It's the gay MARRIAGE that they want nothing to do with. They don't want to accidentally or on purpose 'participate' in such an ungodly, unrighteous 'sin' as create a floral arrangement that will grace the altar at a GAY MARRIAGE.
I don't know about anyone else, but this distinction took a while for me to 'get'. Call me dense, and I'll agree.
Now -- what they want is that no litigious LGBTQI and so forth people to be able to SUE them if they refuse to make n bake twenty pizzas for a GAY WEDDING. In spite of there being no biblical proscriptions against GAY folks or GAY weddings in the first place, and in support of the fervor that follows from this false dilemma that no scriptural Christian doctrine actually condemns in the first place, many Christians have as much as convinced themselves the Bible condemns modern 'gays'. This is SO easily hung out to dry, but peep's will be needing to do the tribal us versus them thing, unfortunately.
The good news is, after this -- the pool has been pooped in, and you can't unpoop it.
The literal essence of the Religious Freedom bill nonsense is untouched because it was never recognized in the first place, and will hopefully remain unrecognized. Christians will have more evidence that they are persecuted and misunderstood -- which indeed they were, but they brought it on themselves. Why Christians have chosen to focus on 'homosexuality' as opposed to the large variety of other common biblical sins which they do themselves everyday they wear a mixed fabric shirt or a woman speaks out in church, well, maybe they'll take a long look at this someday. They did this to themselves, and I'm grateful they did.
You know, I have wondered what would happen if an Evangelical Born Again walked into the bakery shop to order a wedding cake and the proprietor said, "I'm Catholic, and I don't believe in the way you worship God, so I can't bake a cake for you. Go to hell you godless heathen!"
By the way, after "the pool has been pooped in, and you can't unpoop it", I know why the YMCA pool has been drained in cleaned over the past few days. Thanks a lot, @Hamsaka!
Ignorance it do cause suffering then? I knew it!
Be kind everyone . . . we are surrounded . . . hand out the Blue Lions . . .
I was just brushing up on history and reading about William Penn, and came across this -- which seems somehow related to this broader discussion: By abolishing the church's authority over the congregation, Quakerism not only extended the Protestant Reformation more radically, but helped extend the most important principle of modern political history – the rights of the individual – upon which modern democracies were later founded.
Oh yeah...that got printed out and is tacked to my cubicle.
The church is almost everything to the Black community. I will say though...once I explain this is a civil rights issue....You will/would be surprised to see the penny drop. Black, church folks do not want to be told that they have to think being gay is ok (supposedly, god doesn't approve)...I explain, they can choose who they want to have sex with...but do they want the government controlling that?...as in laws. To be fair...everyone loves the side of the issue they are on..."Hey, I got my civil rights...F$^% the rest of them...they weren't worried about me way back when"....You know how that goes...but alot of reaching the Black community about this gay issue is going to be letting them know it's ok on Sunday morning to think someone is going to hell....but we can't pass laws based on that. What if we decide brown eyed people can't marry blued eyed people...or if your missing an arm, you can't sleep in a double bed...only single beds...afterall, it will be for a greater good, right? What you think is one thing...but making laws around it, is another.
It's sad to say....but the Black church is helping this hate train along....money wise and otherwise.
Religion may be losing it's hold on the White community...but Black folks? Here in the Bible belt? Hell no....holding on for dear life...To be fair again...here in the Bible belt are those white conservative tea party people who are hanging on for dear life and sure seem ok co-signing the black church riding along....Person A hates person B...but they will both get together to hate on Person C. Shamefull stuff...