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Existence vs. evolution
Nave650
New
I've recently been intrigued by the concept of reincarnation and that life, like almost all other things, is a cycle, but have been held back by evolution. At one point, there was no life on Earth, and since (if I'm correct) reincarnation is the concept that a soul moves on to a new body once the body dies, and now I'm having a hard time believing in reincarnation. Can anyone clarify this for me? I also apologize in advance if my lack of understanding offends anyone, I did my best to summarize what I know about this topic.
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Comments
Hi @Nave650 - welcome!
Do you think it's possible that life may exist in other parts of this universe or in other universes?
Do you think these souls (mind streams) could migrate across universes to this planet and vice versa?
@Nave650
You might find this of interest....
Rebirth vs. Reincarnation
" Although these terms are often used interchangeably, there is a significant conceptual difference between the two. On the whole, Buddhists believe in rebirth while Hindus, Jains, and some Christians believe in reincarnation. Strictly speaking, reincarnation means the assumption of another body by a permanent, eternal self (the Hindu notion of atman or the Christian notion of soul). Most Buddhists do not believe in a permanent self (anatman or anatta, without enduring self) but believe human consciousness (the "I" or self) dissolves at death and that only a subtle mindstream remains. The mindstream carries with it karmic imprints from prior lives (but not memories and emotions associated with prior lives, unless the person is a highly developed spiritual practitioner, in which case reincarnation is possible) and it is this subtle mindstream that conjoins with a new life-form after death. Thus, rebirth does not mean an identifiable human being assuming a new human body. Moreover, in Buddhism, rebirth is not always accomplished in human form. Depending on karmic circumstances, a human being can be reborn as an animal or as a being in any of the upper or lower realms."
"We didn't come 'in' to this world...We came 'out' of it!" Alan Watts
I've been interested lately in whether or not time always progresses forward.
Like @Shoshin said there is a difference between reincarnation and rebirth for many people. I tend to follow the rebirth side based on Buddhists non self teachings and personal experiences.
Basically that feeling you exist, is something that all of us have. Some call it consciousness. There is nothing unique about it, it's completely empty. Some people say that it is THIS, that migrates onto another body to experience life.
It's not You but it's not, not you either.
I good way of understanding is that people die and people are born right? Well they are all conscious they exist. We all have this same conscious knowing we exist. The idea is that it is this that carries on after death.
Like a wave, life is the crest, death is the trough. They carry on and you can't have one without the other.
Another idea is that there is a subtle awareness of consciousness. This awareness even happens during deep sleep when there is no consciousness. This awareness never dies and is never born. It simply experiences life from life to life.
Some call it nirvana some call it god. They say we are all this.
There is also atman and Brahman but that's more on the Hindu scene.
There are definitely people who will say this is a pointless question because it's speculation but I would simply try and understand the difference between rebirth and reincarnation intellectually.
Then find out for your self Experientially.
My heart is pointing towards us being already without birth or death but it's not recognised yet.
With metta chris
Where are you when deeply asleep? Not conscious? Why would anyone ask what that is like?
Oh hi, welcome
A continuum that you don't remember arriving from or know when going to is your dream existence?
We assume the gross waking state but I'm not satisfied with that assumption.
There is something that is aware of all three states. It doesn't need memory.
Hence why we can be reborn.
We only get offended by really stupid things around here, and this is not a stupid question. If you really want to piss people off (hey, you never know), suggest or imply you think you know something better than another member. Guaranteed to cause a riot (ie, a three page thread before Federica shuts it down). Or mention sexism in a thread, even if there's not the remotest hint of sexism. Works every time
I can't say I 'believe' in rebirth, I have no actual memories or experiences that have given me convincing evidence. I would like to believe it, though, I find the idea appealing and it makes perfect sense with Buddhist cosmology. I don't make big life decisions based upon my incipient rebirth post death of this body I currently have. But discussing it is always interesting. Combining rebirth as an idea with evolution, now THAT is interesting.
It makes sense to me that maybe 'awareness' is simply Life, and my billions of previous lives were as blue-green algae, multicellular swamp beings, a whale with residual limbs-cum-fins, a couple of australopithicenes, and recently, a homo sapiens sapiens.
What a lot of people (including myself) have trouble with is how OLD life on this planet is. We're talking 3 billion years (out of 4.5 billion) where there has been some form of life, however simple, on Earth. We live for 80 or so years. We can't fathom a million years, much less 3 billion.
There have been something like 4 or 5 mass extinctions on this planet, and only 1 or 2% of all the species of life (plants, animals, insects, sea critters) that ever existed are here in front of us now.
Considering evolution, the 'chances' of millions or even billions of rebirths on this planet alone (much less others) is a no brainer, to me.
Besides that, who is to say that we only live one life at a time?
That which pops in and out is not you, right. The question that remains, "Is that which knows you slept you?"
How is it that it literally feels like a moment ago that you slept even though many hours have passed?
Without looking at the clock or the outside, you would have no idea how long you were out.
Consciousness actually arises and passes moment to moment like beads. There is no continuum. It only looks that way.
I understand that Darwin complicated things for upholders of the Creationist theory.
I can't quite see why evolution would complicate things for the Rebirth/Reincarnation upholders, though.
After all, one of Buddhism's main tenets is that no physical or psychical phenomena can come into existence without a previous cause.
This is because that is.
"No god nor Brahma can be called
The maker of this wheel of life:
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."
(Visuddhimagga)
After all, if there is a line of evolution, or matter not getting lost, but transformed, well, anything goes.
I really, really doubt it.
Because even in a state of presence. Whereby I am aware of consciousness(waking state). There is something that is aware of this state. So it must be beyond consciousness.
I've heard it said that a light can't illuminate itself nor can a knife cut itself.
So that which is aware of consciousness is what?
Aaaand.... My mind can't handle this Hahahah
In the Buddhist model consciousness is aware of the mind, not of itself.
But if you WERE to label it, what label would it bear...?
Sometimes, labels are needed.
lemonade and bleach, for example....
"You" are not this consciousness.
What about that which is aware of "that which is aware of consciousness"?
What is it since you mention this?
Can your mind handle this?
All you ever see are echoes(immediate past) or reflections or illusions. They are not you. You cannot directly see your body nor your mind because the centre is empty.
Labels are tools for the mind. Labels directly mislead in this regards.
The only reason we can't perceive emptiness is because of labels.
Thanks for all the welcomes everyone!
You are right @Earthninja, this is a lot to comprehend. So many new ways of thinking, I can't decide!
But in regards to the last comments, a phrase comes to my mind; A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
I don't really like labels, but as @federica mentioned, sometimes they are necessary.
One can be asleep, unconscious, have missing brain parts through accident or disease and still be real? Fantasy of continuity? How much of the brain can be removed and we are not in a coma? How much of the body fall apart and we still 'be'?
When is the sperm or sperm plus egg a being?
Continuity of the dream of eternity Buddhist style? Or are we just living the dream dharma?
So I would agree. I don't remember being in a pre-death, pre-life 'being'. When dust I doubt 'being' is recallable. What the mind cooks up never ceases to amaze me ... Maybe you are alluding to another dream memory?
So I tend to favour Darwin over 'thus have I dreamed'.
I don't remember breaking a child hood friends family light post lamp thing. I am now all different cells from that time. Is it me?
As a rogue tantrika I find great value in stories, visualisations and passing bodhisattvas. Great value. However I take even the sutras with a salt pinch.
That which is aware cannot be observed, try.
Genetically it's the same "you". Psychologically different of course.