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if i remember correctly then i think nearly a year back, i was in the same situation of deciding which one to choose - anapanasati or zazen - somehow, at that time i thought of continuing with anapanasati - so was sitting with normal cross-legged position (no lotus, not burmeese, just the normal cross-legged position), with eyes closed, trying to observe breath. i don't know how this zazen suddenly gained focus, may be 3 months back i was hearing the dharma talks on everydayzen.org on the 8000 lines prajna paramita sutra and was hearing the other dhamma talks on zen koans and then few backs i started reading Dogen's collection of 300 koans and the commentaries and notes inside it - have i think one main thing - to cut off all thoughts/words/ideas/knowledge and experience the intimacy with what is - something which they say like, within myriad forms, a single body is revealed. today i sat as per Jundo's instructions on zazen - normal cross-legged position, eyes half-open at 45 degrees down towards ground, hands in oval position mudra - i even thought of feeling how my left hand palm(which was over right hand palm) was feeling, and i noticed there was some sensation in the area around index finger, the muscle forming the curve and the thumb - don't know what was that, but it was feeling like some tingling is going on there and in my mind i was thinking like the mind is placed on the left hand palm. i will try to focus on breathing in and out during zazen and see how this goes. i do not know how long i will be able to continue doing zazen because i think i have a bad habit of not having patience and my mind is too much full of defilements of lust, anger, greed, attachment, aversion and ego and also due to the wrong habit of trying to get something, even though theoretically i understand meditation is done not to achieve anything, rather meditation is done to let go of things, so kind of a stupid, ignorant person i am.
in anapanasati, i struggled with the question of observing natural breathing or controlled breathing - but i think if i focus on breathing in zazen, then i will not try to do cautious breathing, rather just try to observe whatever i can of my natural breathing - or i need to make sure that i observe the complete breathing in and complete breathing out? also, is controlled breathing recommended in zazen, in which we can manually try to control the breathing by trying to breathe in and breathe out and then observe it - or should i try to observe natural breathing only, no matter how small part of it i can actually notice due to the irregular breathing pattern of mine?
Thich Nhat Hanh has an interesting comment on the non-duality attained (or that could be ideally attained) during meditation:
_"The key to 'observation meditation' is that the subject of observation and the object of observation not be regarded as separate. [...] Students of meditation have to remove the boundary between subject and object. When we observe something, we are that thing." _
This quote makes any expectation of pleasure during meditation superfluous, in my opinion.
@SpinyNorman said: So what does that mean, practically speaking? How does Zen meditation do that?
Meditation is training your mind to be calm, attentive, focused, and observant. In Kwan Um Zen, it's called a "Clear Mind" condition. Others call it "Buddha Nature" or "Buddha Mind". To the extent enlightenment is a state of mind, this is the grounding needed before you can get anywhere else in your practice. With a clear mind, you can observe and respond to a situation correctly.
I must point out that what I describe is not mystical Buddhism or even mystical Zen Buddhism. In my practice and tradition, there is nothing magical or mysterious about Buddha Nature. On the contrary, it's as obvious and simple as the nose on your face and almost impossible to grasp because of that.
My Zen practice does not care for the big questions. "Where do you go when you die?" To the grave. What other answer can you give? Simple. Obvious. Anything beyond that is just the mind sloshing around, playing with beliefs and desires. You say that you're asking if your mind is reborn when you die? Ask someone who's dead that, not me. That's Zen.
"You know what two hands clapping sounds like. What is the sound of one hand clapping?" You have a hand. Stick it out in front of you. What sound did it make? Silence? That's the sound of one hand clapping. Simple. Obvious. What other answer can you give? Oh, you say there must be a hidden solution to this puzzle because silence is not a sound? Who says? Silence is what you heard. Stop pushing your preconceived notions on reality. That's Zen.
Sitting quietly, doing nothing. We call it meditation without realizing that this label is an illusion. It's just practicing clear mind. Nothing special. That's what I have learned from all the years I sat and watched my breath go in and out.
@SpinyNorman said:
Sure, but how does Zen meditation fulfill the factors of the 8-fold path, practically speaking? Which factors does it focus on?
SpinyNorman
There is the Zen practice which includes the study of the Buddhist Dharma fundamentals (like the 4NT & 8FP) to contemplate and incorporate those teachings into all aspects of daily life......
And
there is the Zazen which includes not formulating any deliberate thought.
While these are distinctly different activities, each patterns the effectiveness of being able to do the other.
@misecmisc1 - I try to focus on breath. Just that breath, that is the present moment, there is no other place to be, none of the future to look forward, nothing of the past. Then emerge into stillness.
But, when the mind seems jumping from one place or another, or there is restlessness - I tried to sense or synchronize breathing with part or the whole body. It takes me back to
"here" the present moment. Feel that air passing every organ such as lungs, abdomen - the whole body is breathing - Hope this helps. and goodluck to your practice.
Your posts over the years are of someone lounging upon a throne of their own mentality, asking about how to meditate while being unwilling to step far enough away from that mental throne to actually do it.
The answers you've been given, that you consistently demonstrate that you are unwilling to hear, is that you can not.
It is like hearing someone lamenting about wanting to drive this Ferrari or that Lamborghini while remaining unwilling to get a drivers license. All the study in the world of the mechanical aspects of those vehicles will not make those wishes come into being.
They are all just mental indulgences that will remain dreams until you are willing to take the practical steps of getting into the drivers seat and you can not actually do that from the safety of your throne.
If your mind was capable of sorting it all out on it's own it would have already done so. It is not your minds fault for it was never actually designed to be the throne you've made of it. It was only supposed to just be another member of team misecmisc1 along with seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling.
Getting into the drivers seat will involve a more equitable power sharing arrangement within your team. Here there is no perfect way to drive. Just a willingness to let our whole team share in the process of being that ride.
The car's there, the door is open, the keys are in the ignition...what's stopping that dream from becoming more than a dream.
@misecmisc1 said: in anapanasati, i struggled with the question of observing natural breathing or controlled breathing - but i think if i focus on breathing in zazen, then i will not try to do cautious breathing, rather just try to observe whatever i can of my natural breathing - or i need to make sure that i observe the complete breathing in and complete breathing out? also, is controlled breathing recommended in zazen, in which we can manually try to control the breathing by trying to breathe in and breathe out and then observe it - or should i try to observe natural breathing only, no matter how small part of it i can actually notice due to the irregular breathing pattern of mine?
any suggestions, here please. thanks in advance.
I put in energy when I establish unremitting mindfulness of breathing in and out, or of simply breathing, or knowing breathing, when I say unremitting, I mean exactly that, being ardent and resolute.
If you are meditating for relaxation, then you will be looking for that pleasant feeling.
If you are meditating for enlightenment, the pleasant feeling is a distraction and should not be a goal of your meditation ... so says my teacher for the past 14 years (who is one of the Dalai Lama's senior monks and a Geshe)
As far as pleasant feelings, yes this is a common side-effect, but not what Buddhist meditation is about. How long? I don't remember how long it took. But the pleasant feeling does not always accompany a meditation session.
@FoibleFull said: If you are meditating for enlightenment, the pleasant feeling is a distraction and should not be a goal of your meditation ... so says my teacher for the past 14 years (who is one of the Dalai Lama's senior monks and a Geshe)
You're right about one thing, and that is pleasant feeling is not the goal of meditation, liberation is the goal, that being said, the feeling in the feelings is one of the 4 foundations of mindfulness, and the 4 foundations is part of the 37 requisites of enlightenment.
@FoibleFull said:
If you are meditating for relaxation, then you will be looking for that pleasant feeling.
If you are meditating for enlightenment, the pleasant feeling is a distraction and should not be a goal of your meditation....
I would say that pleasant feelings are a stage of meditation which reflect the mind calming to a degree where insight is possible.
Actually, I am reading Thich Nhat Hanh's analysis of the Anapanasati Sutta and he makes an interesting point about incorporating Joy in our meditation practice.
Thay mentions seven ways to practice: following the breath in daily life, awareness of the body, realizing the unity of body and mind, nourishing ourselves with joy and happiness, observing feelings, caring for and liberating the mind, and looking deeply in order to shed light on the true nature of all dharmas.
He stresses that the most important points to aim to develop during our meditation are following the breath in daily life and nourishing ourselves with the joy of meditation.
"Through the practice of meditation, we learn to transform the so-called neutral feelings into pleasant ones that are healthy and long lasting. Meditation helps us see what is painful and what is miraculous. Happiness in itself is nourishing. It is not necessary to look for happiness outside of ourselves. We only need to be aware of the existence of happiness, and we have it right away. [...] With peace in ourselves, we can share peace with others, and we have enough strength and equanimity to face the many hardships in life with patience and perseverance."
Comments
@seeker242: thanks for your above reply.
if i remember correctly then i think nearly a year back, i was in the same situation of deciding which one to choose - anapanasati or zazen - somehow, at that time i thought of continuing with anapanasati - so was sitting with normal cross-legged position (no lotus, not burmeese, just the normal cross-legged position), with eyes closed, trying to observe breath. i don't know how this zazen suddenly gained focus, may be 3 months back i was hearing the dharma talks on everydayzen.org on the 8000 lines prajna paramita sutra and was hearing the other dhamma talks on zen koans and then few backs i started reading Dogen's collection of 300 koans and the commentaries and notes inside it - have i think one main thing - to cut off all thoughts/words/ideas/knowledge and experience the intimacy with what is - something which they say like, within myriad forms, a single body is revealed. today i sat as per Jundo's instructions on zazen - normal cross-legged position, eyes half-open at 45 degrees down towards ground, hands in oval position mudra - i even thought of feeling how my left hand palm(which was over right hand palm) was feeling, and i noticed there was some sensation in the area around index finger, the muscle forming the curve and the thumb - don't know what was that, but it was feeling like some tingling is going on there and in my mind i was thinking like the mind is placed on the left hand palm. i will try to focus on breathing in and out during zazen and see how this goes. i do not know how long i will be able to continue doing zazen because i think i have a bad habit of not having patience and my mind is too much full of defilements of lust, anger, greed, attachment, aversion and ego and also due to the wrong habit of trying to get something, even though theoretically i understand meditation is done not to achieve anything, rather meditation is done to let go of things, so kind of a stupid, ignorant person i am.
in anapanasati, i struggled with the question of observing natural breathing or controlled breathing - but i think if i focus on breathing in zazen, then i will not try to do cautious breathing, rather just try to observe whatever i can of my natural breathing - or i need to make sure that i observe the complete breathing in and complete breathing out? also, is controlled breathing recommended in zazen, in which we can manually try to control the breathing by trying to breathe in and breathe out and then observe it - or should i try to observe natural breathing only, no matter how small part of it i can actually notice due to the irregular breathing pattern of mine?
any suggestions, here please. thanks in advance.
Thich Nhat Hanh has an interesting comment on the non-duality attained (or that could be ideally attained) during meditation:
This quote makes any expectation of pleasure during meditation superfluous, in my opinion.
Meditation is training your mind to be calm, attentive, focused, and observant. In Kwan Um Zen, it's called a "Clear Mind" condition. Others call it "Buddha Nature" or "Buddha Mind". To the extent enlightenment is a state of mind, this is the grounding needed before you can get anywhere else in your practice. With a clear mind, you can observe and respond to a situation correctly.
I must point out that what I describe is not mystical Buddhism or even mystical Zen Buddhism. In my practice and tradition, there is nothing magical or mysterious about Buddha Nature. On the contrary, it's as obvious and simple as the nose on your face and almost impossible to grasp because of that.
My Zen practice does not care for the big questions. "Where do you go when you die?" To the grave. What other answer can you give? Simple. Obvious. Anything beyond that is just the mind sloshing around, playing with beliefs and desires. You say that you're asking if your mind is reborn when you die? Ask someone who's dead that, not me. That's Zen.
"You know what two hands clapping sounds like. What is the sound of one hand clapping?" You have a hand. Stick it out in front of you. What sound did it make? Silence? That's the sound of one hand clapping. Simple. Obvious. What other answer can you give? Oh, you say there must be a hidden solution to this puzzle because silence is not a sound? Who says? Silence is what you heard. Stop pushing your preconceived notions on reality. That's Zen.
Sitting quietly, doing nothing. We call it meditation without realizing that this label is an illusion. It's just practicing clear mind. Nothing special. That's what I have learned from all the years I sat and watched my breath go in and out.
Getting the 37 factors of enlightenment working in harmony will lead to liberation.
SpinyNorman
There is the Zen practice which includes the study of the Buddhist Dharma fundamentals (like the 4NT & 8FP) to contemplate and incorporate those teachings into all aspects of daily life......
And
there is the Zazen which includes not formulating any deliberate thought.
While these are distinctly different activities, each patterns the effectiveness of being able to do the other.
@misecmisc1 - I try to focus on breath. Just that breath, that is the present moment, there is no other place to be, none of the future to look forward, nothing of the past. Then emerge into stillness.
But, when the mind seems jumping from one place or another, or there is restlessness - I tried to sense or synchronize breathing with part or the whole body. It takes me back to
"here" the present moment. Feel that air passing every organ such as lungs, abdomen - the whole body is breathing - Hope this helps. and goodluck to your practice.
@ misecmisc1
Your posts over the years are of someone lounging upon a throne of their own mentality, asking about how to meditate while being unwilling to step far enough away from that mental throne to actually do it.
The answers you've been given, that you consistently demonstrate that you are unwilling to hear, is that you can not.
It is like hearing someone lamenting about wanting to drive this Ferrari or that Lamborghini while remaining unwilling to get a drivers license. All the study in the world of the mechanical aspects of those vehicles will not make those wishes come into being.
They are all just mental indulgences that will remain dreams until you are willing to take the practical steps of getting into the drivers seat and you can not actually do that from the safety of your throne.
If your mind was capable of sorting it all out on it's own it would have already done so. It is not your minds fault for it was never actually designed to be the throne you've made of it. It was only supposed to just be another member of team misecmisc1 along with seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling.
Getting into the drivers seat will involve a more equitable power sharing arrangement within your team. Here there is no perfect way to drive. Just a willingness to let our whole team share in the process of being that ride.
The car's there, the door is open, the keys are in the ignition...what's stopping that dream from becoming more than a dream.
I put in energy when I establish unremitting mindfulness of breathing in and out, or of simply breathing, or knowing breathing, when I say unremitting, I mean exactly that, being ardent and resolute.
If you are meditating for relaxation, then you will be looking for that pleasant feeling.
If you are meditating for enlightenment, the pleasant feeling is a distraction and should not be a goal of your meditation ... so says my teacher for the past 14 years (who is one of the Dalai Lama's senior monks and a Geshe)
As far as pleasant feelings, yes this is a common side-effect, but not what Buddhist meditation is about. How long? I don't remember how long it took. But the pleasant feeling does not always accompany a meditation session.
In Hinduism, the pleasant feeling is the goal.
You're right about one thing, and that is pleasant feeling is not the goal of meditation, liberation is the goal, that being said, the feeling in the feelings is one of the 4 foundations of mindfulness, and the 4 foundations is part of the 37 requisites of enlightenment.
if you have auditory hallucinations one hand can make a sound!
I would say that pleasant feelings are a stage of meditation which reflect the mind calming to a degree where insight is possible.
Experiencing non-duality is pleasant though.
Actually, I am reading Thich Nhat Hanh's analysis of the Anapanasati Sutta and he makes an interesting point about incorporating Joy in our meditation practice.
Thay mentions seven ways to practice: following the breath in daily life, awareness of the body, realizing the unity of body and mind, nourishing ourselves with joy and happiness, observing feelings, caring for and liberating the mind, and looking deeply in order to shed light on the true nature of all dharmas.
He stresses that the most important points to aim to develop during our meditation are following the breath in daily life and nourishing ourselves with the joy of meditation.