Achievement

genie

People try to achieve this or that in the worldly plane, become frustrated, realise dukkha, and enter the Buddhist path. But they carry the same mindset so they try to achieve in meditation, self restraint, morality etc. Again they become frustrated and experience dukkha.

This is what a great master called spiritual materialism. We try to attain worldly goals even in spirituality. So far from overcoming dukkha we experience more dukkha following this method.

lobster

What's your plan?

federica

@genie, You ARE speaking for yourself, I presume?

Don't assume to speak for others.
I think you are quite wide off the mark, frankly.

We tread the path to transcend dukkha.
We don't "experience MORE dukkha following this method", we simply increase our awareness of what dukkha is.
Our recognition of dukkha is heightened and we become more conscious of how prevalent it is.

It's like seeing traffic, but then really noticing just how many red vehicles there are.
Before, they were all just cars.
Now, every other one seems to be scarlet or a variation thereof.

We do not experience MORE dukkha.
Our perception of what we experience causes us to label them.

Up to you whether it's 'bad' or 'good' though.

See?

Wide off the mark.

genie

U have misunderstood. Reread my post. I said the expectation of a reward (such as peace, meditation experience, etc.) might add to the dukkha since the very attitude is worldly in nature.

So bottom line, u can't approach spirituality with a worldly mind. Else spirituality will be no different from worldly pursuits. One person tries hard to earn money. U try hard to earn peace. Both of u will experience stress born of the desire to attain something.

federica

@genie said:
U have misunderstood. Reread my post. I said the expectation of a reward (such as peace, meditation experience, etc.) might add to the dukkha since the very attitude is worldly in nature.

If you expect a reward, you're doing it wrong.
Doing it - IS the reward.

So bottom line, u can't approach spirituality with a worldly mind.

What other kind of mind could a novice approach it with - ?!

Else spirituality will be no different from worldly pursuits. One person tries hard to earn money. U try hard to earn peace. Both of u will experience stress born of the desire to attain something.

"Trying" isn't "Doing".

We don't try to attain anything.
The whole point is to DROP everything.

You're really not getting this at all, are you?
Where have you picked all this stuff up from anyway - ?

Buddhadragon

@genie said:
U have misunderstood.

You mentioned this sentence in different threads.
Could it be that it is you who misunderstands?

lobster

@DhammaDragon said:
Could it be that it is you who misunderstands?

No. Well ... maybe ... perhaps ...

We all have partial understanding. Overcoming our limitations requires skilful and humble recognition that only when we understand deeply enough can we unfold that in a skilfull way ...

So that is me out. I can not even understand my DABS radio

Earthninja

@genie said:
People try to achieve this or that in the worldly plane, become frustrated, realise dukkha, and enter the Buddhist path. But they carry the same mindset so they try to achieve in meditation, self restraint, morality etc. Again they become frustrated and experience dukkha.

This is what a great master called spiritual materialism. We try to attain worldly goals even in spirituality. So far from overcoming dukkha we experience more dukkha following this method.

I think you do make a good point, putting expectations on anything causes issues. People could be clinging to Buddhism and not even know it. Masked as being spiritual.
How to see through this I wonder?

genkaku

@genie -- An exercise I have found useful: Every time I find myself using words like "people" or "they" or "we" or "one" when describing human desires or behavior, I try substituting the word "I."

It's pretty informative, I find.

David

@genie said:
People try to achieve this or that in the worldly plane, become frustrated, realise dukkha, and enter the Buddhist path. But they carry the same mindset so they try to achieve in meditation, self restraint, morality etc. Again they become frustrated and experience dukkha.

This is what a great master called spiritual materialism. We try to attain worldly goals even in spirituality. So far from overcoming dukkha we experience more dukkha following this method.

I got on the Buddhist path because it made sense.

I understand what you mean though. IF we approach it the way you described we could be falling for the same trappings we are trying to avoid. Some people probably do this but not all of us.

This is just some advice to be taken or left but it's usually best to supply a link or some kind of reference linking to this great masters teaching.

federica

@ourself said:...This is just some advice to be taken or left but it's usually best to supply a link or some kind of reference linking to this great masters teaching.

Yes.... I can't help feeling I might have mentioned this to @genie before. More than once.
In fact, I distinctly remember it is a basic forum (unofficial) requirement that all comments of this type require reference, link or source.

Hence my question:

Where have you picked all this stuff up from anyway - ?

Any further so-called 'wisdom' regarding what 'people' definitely do or don't do, will find a sticky and abrupt end.

karasti

@genie why so much focus on what everyone else is, or might be, doing with their practice?

I came to Buddhism, in part, looking for some peace in my life. As I have learned and practice, peace has come. I don't expect it to come magically. I learned quickly not to expect much at all. But it has still been a natural result of my practice. Letting go of expectation is what brings peace. I still most certainly experience a lack of satisfaction in my life. But not every single thing I do because I want to do it brings suffering. Just expecting particular outcomes does, however.

robot

Well, I think most of us tho not all, might assume the the master in this case is Trungpa.
And @genie's point is one that beginner Buddhists should take note of.
However, it all comes out in the wash for any who stay with the program.
I don't think we should get our backs up at having to discuss it or not, again.

federica

Just to let you all know genie won't be returning.
Suffice to say he's like a gassy soda....

Keeps repeating....

robot

That's pretty harsh

Shoshin

@genie said:
People try to achieve this or that in the worldly plane, become frustrated, realise dukkha, and enter the Buddhist path. But they carry the same mindset so they try to achieve in meditation, self restraint, morality etc. Again they become frustrated and experience dukkha.

This is what a great master called spiritual materialism. We try to attain worldly goals even in spirituality. So far from overcoming dukkha we experience more dukkha following this method.

@genie One could say "Buddhism is all about living the paradox" ....

Invincible_summer

I'm not sure why everyone is getting up in @genie's face about their post. I don't think he/she was being accusatory or holier-than-thou; I took it as a reminder to try and be more altruistic about our practice and not so much about the material gains from it. Practice for the sake of practicing.