Deluded Buddhism (?) in the light of the Sutras
Shim
Veteran
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn20/sn20.007.than.html
> "In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.
Is this pretty much what were are doing with all the "accessible to the modern life" type of dharma? And even though we often think of Buddhism of something that allows spiritual inspiration from other religions as well, this is only one of the many(?) (at least I've seen quite a lot of them and I'm not well-versed in Sutras) quotes that point out how the Buddha wanted his disciples to follow him and only him. (Sure, he wanted them to reach the inner light bulb state pretty fast.)
This might also be a matter of interest. (Concerning the various misquotations of the Kalama sutra as well as "cut and paste Buddhism".)
> So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical deduction, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.'
Then by whom should we go?
Comments
He tells you.
By 'yourself'.
How about the fact that the 5 aggregates are not self? Anattalakkhana Sutta.
As is stated also in the Heart Sutra.
@Shim
What religion isn't filled with those who present their specific path as special over all others.
This is just about those humans who delusively try to smuggle the tribal values that originally gave them their worldly sense of identity, into their new found spiritual home.
The Buddha's path is simply** towards** suffering's cessation and yet every moment offers everyone another step to be taken in whatever direction they wish.
I trust my practice to determine if my next step is towards suffering's cessation or not.
I'll leave it to others to decide if their steps should be determined by an ancient fortune telling or not.
Those who hear the words and those who make them are not different. Nor are they the same.
But before the dime drops, there is always room for a little more eyewash.
Let's not get into another authentic-vs.-inauthentic eyewash contest.
Practice. See what happens.
And let those who insist piss up a rope.
Follow Buddha Cool ...
Sunglasses on. Buddha Shim sits. Iz plan. Revelations and insights to the usual address ...
Buddhism is a religion of believing and following Shakyamuni buddha's teaching ONLY, and there is a good reason for it but even the monks ignore his teachings completely these days, my teacher said the monks like that are misleading the crowd and believers and monks will end up going to the most horrible hell, bc as a monk , misleading the sentient being is the crime of getting rid of seed of Buddha in them.(the worst crime ever possible) and the followers will get the karmic result as well. He said cosmic Law is the most accurate never fail to calculate even one drop of dust particles of the karma. I always thought the Buddhism was very flexible until he pointed out buddha's teaching correctly.
In my country ( South Korea ), the Buddhism has gone far far away from Shakamuni buddha's teachings. Totemism and other non buddhist beliefs had been mixed up. Buddhism is based on cause and effect law, but these totemism and other things are hocus focus style, which is called black law, compromising with the non human ( gods world - I mean the gods as in many gods such as gods of water, gods of mountain ect ect ). that is very very dangerous. It is very hard to believe things like that but my teacher has 6 transcendental powers ( he never brags about it but its true ) he "sees" the other beings other than dead peoples soul. ( he said once a person is dead, human soul cannot mind alive people's business, they have to wait for their next rebirth ). the ghosts we normally know are all the bad existences. like the ones called poltergeist, evil, devil satan ect. people don't believe things like this so its hard to tell people.
Shakyamuni buddha had become a buddha long before he was born as Gautama siddhartha. He is the only buddha who came to the saha world as we live in. He didn't have to born as a human again but he did to save the sentient beings in saha world. We should not forget his teachings. I am so thankful beyond words.
the enlighenment that Shakyamuni buddha found was the law of the Tathagata, Buddha of the buddhas, cosmic Law, The Truth itself, white Law. But he knew no one will believe it even if he told people so he started with the expedient means just to make people to enter the way. then later he revealed the truth in Lotus Sutra, the wonderful Dharma, Saddharma Puntarika Sutra. He also pointed out that in the latter days of the Law, only Saddharma holds the truth not even his previous teachings nor other sutras.
Your teacher has never been to hell to teach the monks and teachers the cosmic law? He has no intention of going there? Hardly very compassionate. Let us hope he opens his heart to the suffering.
May his place be reserved for his corrective karma lessons ...
you don't know him. You can say whatever you want to say about him but its on your karma.
He is walking the most difficult path just to let people know what Buddha's teachings are and what result people will get if they use his teachings for their own good. and to save sentient beings.
If there is something terribly wrong, why not telling? should he be quiet and let people suffer?
there are evil people in the world and there are people who fight them not for their own good but for the righteous reason. My teacher is fighting the gigantic force of wrong doing fake buddhism and the monks all by himself, I think that is very very courageous. for that reason Buddhas and Boddhisattva protects him against evils.
Do what works, which is basically what the Kalama Sutta says.
All by himself? Why?
Why are there not others who see as he does and do as he does?
What makes him so special that you hang every belief upon his words and consider his teachings - and his only - to be worthwhile?
That is a very blinkered, distorted and narrow view.
It closes you off to other possibilities, learning curves, processes and experiences....
I hope you are not so narrow-minded as to assume that only YOU are on the right path and that everyone else, who does not follow your train of thought, is deluded and misguided....
That would be risky territory, and not a claim you should make....
federica,
you probably don't know what is going on in korea ( buddhism )
Because korean monks and Buddhism in korea is corrupted. they do things like worshiping dragon gods, or taking money and write talisman or have people pray to gods (mountain gods ect ). that is not Buddha's teaching. so my teacher is saying that is not a right thing to do and all the monks are angry because that is the way of money they taking from the worshippers. saying no to wrong doing is not narrow minded. you don't compromise with the wrong doing. he is courageous not narrow minded and I believe in him. if you are a buddhist you should follow buddha's teaching. if you follow something else like worshiping gods of this and that, then you are not a buddhist. if you think my teachers way is narrow, you are saying that Shakyamuni buddha is narrow minded rather, because its Shayamuni buddha who told these things in his sutras.
basically you sow what you planted. ( we say you harvest beans where you planted beans ). you cannot expect gold nuggets will fall upon you because you pray for it and pay the monks money for praying for them instead. Nobody can do anything for you in a karmic law. Its you only you. Everything in your life 100 percent you are responsible for it. (though Buddha can help you when you really earn it ) its just that simple. but people seem to get upset about that( because they think their misfortune and unhappiness in life are coincident ) anywya the monks who should lead sentient beings should lead them to Buddha, not some eveil poltergeist by making wishes upon the ghost or gods. Buddha said not to do things for good reasons ( not to lead sentient beings to unhappiness )
what is most mysterious thing to me is that there are always some buddhist who gets upset or misunderstands when I mention what Shakyamuni buddha said in his words. why??? but then they really love the monk's teachings which is really different from Buddha's teaching. I am saying all these based on my experience with korean buddhist so don't get me wrong btw.
Are these miscreants all heading for hell?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Zen
Are there any Buddhists in Korea apart from your teacher and Buddhist sect that is avoiding the hell realms? What is the name of your group and teacher? Any branches in the West?
Lobster,
shila and most of goryo was the time of correct law and counterfeit law. I am talking about the monks during the latter days of the law, the monks that mislead the people to fake buddhism. you don't even know what's happening in korea.
in chosun dynasty they prohibited the buddhism.
if you have problem with what I have said, you should ask Buddha instead. because Shakyamuni buddha is the one who said that. why don't you read Lotus Sutra and you can see it for yourself.
No problem.
What you have said is clear for everyone to understand. I have read the Lotus Sutra. Are you able to answer my questions?
Are there any Buddhists in Korea apart from your teacher and Buddhist sect that is avoiding the hell realms? What is the name of your group and teacher? Any branches in the West?
if you have read the Lotus Sutra you should know the answer.
Buddhist is buddhist. If someone truly believes what Shakaymuni buddha has said, the there shouldn't be branches or school such things. Look, I am only a buddhist not a teacher of the Law, I don't have 6 transcendental powers that buddha gives to only the teacher of the law. so I might say things or mis interpretate or choose slight incorrect english words but you guys can understand using your common sense. I am only here saying things to let people know that buddhism is not very flexible like we all think. that only cause unhappiness in life. I am not trying to brag about my teacher or myself ( I am just an idiot ! ) so please don't get me wrong, I have good intention, and I try to say what exactly Buddha had said. because these days people don't seem to listening to what buddha had said and follow whatever their likings.
I myself use to love all the other beliefs and ended up putting myself in a dark place. believe me, there exist more than our eyes can see in this world and in this huge universe, cosmos.
my teacher is the only one all by himself, he gets threats and all the curses and even legal problems from the dirty monks in korea. there is no money in his way so no one is interested. he is truly a student of Buddha. ( I have faith in him )
people do ask him what branch or school he's in. and sometimes he tell them School of Shakyamuni buddha ( of course this is being slightly sarcastic )
To the extent that I have faith in Buddhism, to that extent precisely it is only the "fake Buddhism" I have faith in.
My job, as I see it, is to actualize what is true and not wallow in a much-praised-and-little-examined faith. A fake Rolex watch may tell time, but that doesn't make it a Rolex.
You had a watch?! Sheer luxury!
"Give me that old time religion,
give me that old time religion,
give me that old time religion,
It's good enough for me!"
I'm not making fun of the sutra nor of your question, only remembering a wonderful old gospel song we used to sing in church that says the exact same thing much more directly.
What you quote is simply a sermon giving the conservative side of the "Theravada versus Mahayana" debate that has been going on for a thousand years. The Heart Sutra, for instance, is one of those "literary works, elegant in sound, the work of outsiders" this monk writing the sutra is concerned about. People being people, there will always be conflict between the old and new. That doesn't mean new is always better. It also doesn't mean only the words of our ancestors have any value.
The Heart Sutra is too poetic to have been written by a monk, I reckon it was Willy Shakespeare what wrote it.
Now, now, everyone knows it was Francis Bacon writing under the pseudonym of Shakespeare wrote all those plays.
But you're not anywhere near Korea.
And I'm Theravada Buddhist. I don't consider anything other than the Theravada Suttas as being reliable.
And even they are open to discussion, debate, question and examination....
well, if you just don't want to believe what I have to say what can I say? I don't have to explain everything to you when you are just going to deny what I have to say. I am not making things up and I am tired of people asking me to prove things. I am not a super hero or have some extra ordinary talent to prove. If you are really interested in you can see it for yourself. This is modern day and you can probably check it out. I came from buddhist family. The buddhism has gone mad there in korea for long while now not just few years not even few decades.
But you're not anywhere near Korea.
And I'm Theravada Buddhist. I don't consider anything other than the Theravada Suttas as being reliable.
And even they are open to discussion, debate, question and examination....
why do you think I am trying to tell people to stay within what Shakyamuni Buddha's teaching only? if was just a matter of putting some apples in a cherry pie, it wouldnt even matter..that won't hurt nobody. but when you do things what shakyamuni buddha had asked not to do, people get the effect that is not a happy one. its matter of entire life, not only this life, it could be forever ruined. of course I cannot PROVE this scientifically so I try not to mention openly. I am paying my due for having done what the Buddha said not to do and its so painful to say the least.
If you were a person like me, and if you were practicing Lotus Sutra, you will know what I am saying. that is what I have to say about my situation, I don't want to explain my entire life here.
if you already decided you are going to say negatively whatever I have to say, I have no ability to change your mind. and honestly, I don't even know why I have to explain these things here. saying to be true to Buddhas teaching only is something that people get upset about?
I don't understand it especially when its for their own happiness.
If i haven't promised to Buddha that I would do my part I wouldn't be here.
of course some people would misunderstand me and judge me with their own measuring tools. I am learning to wear the armor of enduring hatred. and its not so easy...
Surely you jest! Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford, was a crypto-Buddhist as anyone who has taken the trouble to decode his work knows. Enough of your piffle!
@KarikoPuppies
Just what do you thing you are actually accomplishing here?
Sounding strident, defensive, adversarial, self righteous, identity bound and judgmental about one's understanding of the Dharma has little to do with what the Buddha taught.
While some Korean monks may be detouring off one side of the path towards suffering's cessation, you might want to check if your present suffering is actually because you have just followed suit by stumbling off it's other edge.
Moderator note:
edited by request to re-direct comment to intended member
What sort of experience did you have with Korean Buddhism that left such anger behind? There is basically only Korean Zen in several forms for many years now. If you don't think we understand then explain. I really want to understand.
Buddhism in korea is mixed up with lot of other things.
I grew up in a buddhist family. my grandmother, my mom, both they attend the temple regularily, pray all the tim, read sutras, chant mantras, attend all the things that buddhist normally do. mom would bring talisman that monks wrote to cast away bad spirits, bring 5 colored locks of threads that had been hung upon buddha's statue, monks would tell what our life would be like by looking at the date of our birth ( I had been told that I would die young, and my mom had to "sell" my older brother because his destiny is colliding with my dad's ect ect ). just endless superstitious act and my mom had to pay for all these. Because I grew up that way, I thought buddhism was like that. my mom would have some wine and pray to "gods" to gave us good luck.
now I don't wanna tell you the trouble I am going through right now because no one would believe it.
Because of my trouble, I myself became a buddhist through Lotus Sutra and Lotus Sutra practice. I learned that real buddhism is nothing like asking for good luck and pay for it and some monk will tell you what to do.
The buddhism now in korea has gotten worse, and lot of people pretend to be monks and boddhisattva. ( they call themseleves that. )
I could be spending hours telling you what is wrong with buddhism there.
I am not familiar with buddhism here in US so I don't say nothing.
all these things that had mixed up into buddhism like cheondo ritual ( sending dead peoples spirit to heaven and this ritual is commonly happening in korean temples by the monks and it really cost lot of money. they tell the family that because of your dead grandmother couldn't go to heaven, you are having bad luck and troubles blah blah blah ) and they fall for it.
I learned buddhism from a great teacher (I hope you don't ask me to prove it ) who became a monk at very young age of 12, and he studied most of the sutras while he was in training(?) in his temple that he was belonged to, soon after he got to know the Lotus Sutra, fell in love with the teaching, and he studied and practiced Lotus Sutra for almost 50 years and during that time he gained purified 6 senses, he "sees", "smells", "hears" what normal people cannot ( nothing like some psychics do see pictures and hear sound , I don't know what that is like so well I cannot tell you exactly. if you ask me to prove it, its going to be difficult I rather not trying to do that there are lot of things I would like to tell you but I can't because somebody's is going to get ticked off about it and I would be trying to explain that for ever, its is pretty energy and time consuming I have to say because most of the words that I know in Korean as to buddhism terms, I cannot find it in a dictionary )
anyway sorry for babbling too much. I shouldn't be talking too much I just don't want to deal with this kind of argument. wether you just ignore what I am saying or believe it, either way would be fine with me. everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
I was trying to see what the buddhist in US are like, and I thought this site is good for me to do that.
so there I hope I wrote something that you might get some picture about caos in korea.
thanks for asking and reading this.
You won't know what Buddhism in US is like, unless you go out, join an actual Sangha, attend a specific temple, or several, if you like. This is a Multi-national board, and there are people from the USA - but also New Zealand, Australia, Europe, The UK and other countries too.
So getting a taste of what Buddhism is like in the USA would be better done by going out and meeting Buddhists locally. And even then, you'll only get a local flavour.
One thing we all have in common, is the 4 Noble Truths, the Eightfold path and the Precepts, all of which are ALSO regularly discussed here.
We don't adhere to one, singular, unique teaching.
We are, like Buddhist teachings, a diverse bunch.
We take a whole raft of different aspects of Buddhism on board, and to stick to one single aspect or 'facet of the Jewel' is to lose the opportunity of seeing a bigger picture, and understanding things from so many different points of view.
'The West' is a wonderful stewpot made up of different flavours, but we all go to make a delicious dish.
One little bit of Korean rice, isn't going to change that, but it could add to the flavour....
This Korean Buddhist school seems alright. The whole point of the practice is to make peace within. It isn't what happens outside that causes suffering. We create our own "dukkha" through our own views and opinions. "Mine is the right way" is just another opinion which depends on conditioning - what we were taught, our childhood influences etc. All views come from a sense of a self (sakkayaditthi) separate from the world.
This is my opinion.
Thanks for the very helpful advice and kind words, federica.
I guess everyone has to chose their own destiny, even Buddha cannot make a person to do what a person does not want to do. I should keep that in mind.
I think I can have more nice time here from now on
I didn't know that everyone here are from different places in the world.
I was just thinking everyone here are American.
I think this site is a very cozy melting pot.
thank you so much.
@KarikoPuppies Sorry to hear about the bad experience with Buddhism in Korea. I know Buddhism in that country at least has had huge problems for a long time. But then again, about any nation in the East with established Buddhist cultures has its own set of problems. Japanese Buddhists have complained that their Buddhism seems to have degenerated into family held temples and monks being paid to perform ceremonies, for instance. I know from a few years in Korea that people are comfortable with both Buddhist and Shamanistic beliefs and both were under attack by the Christian missionary churches.
The general answer to your question about Buddhism in America is that it barely exists. Most temples are imported for the use of immigrant populations, complete with monks sent over who usually don't even speak English. The groups that do cater to Westerners are few but active and along with meditation and Dharma talks, hold retreats so people can come in from far away for an intense week or so of heavy Zen-like practice and stay there. There are various schools to choose from, but most Teachers trace their lineage either through Tibetan or Japanese Zen sects.
The big difference you'd notice is that for the few Westerners who practice Buddhism, it's about meditation and personal enlightenment, not lucky numbers or ceremonies by the monks. It's very much an engaged practice. We also tend to overlook the cultural differences between, say, Korean and Japanese Zen practice and focus on the core teachings. Buddhism for us is a personal, life-changing experience.
Oh, and we do have one unique Korean Zen school that's been around for a long time. It's called Kwan-Um Zen. You wouldn't recognize it compared to your Joyge practice today.
This has been an interesting conversation! Thanks everyone for your contribution.
Concerning the state of Buddhism in Korea: that's probably what happens when people are no longer interested in religion, so the people who earn their living from religion turn to things that attract people, like good luck, wealth and the like. It's a sad situation and seems to happen in other religions too. (Lutherans do it in this country, to some extent.)
But I guess some American buddhists are also guilty for kind of popularisation of the dharma so it would appear to the masses....(and because we Finns tend to cynically adopt eveything that gets "trendy" in the States, this phenomenon will get here too...) we're walking on a thin line here.
Btw, I actually had a fake Rolex. It didn't work.
Cinorjer
thank you so much for the insight, that truly helped me getting some kind of picture about buddhism in America.
I think buddhism that is focused on improving themselves is healthy as long as the belief stays within the boundary of buddha's teachings, and I do have faith in American.(because American values honer and justice). Buddhism here will safely bloom beautifully soon.
christianity is huge in korea. so is catholic. ( my mom converted to catholic after all that buddhism thing, also my sister is catholic. ) Kwan um and Amita buddha is the most well known bodhisattva and buddha in korea. To be honest with you I use to think that Amita Buddha and boddhisattva Kwan um was one name together and thought it was another name of Shakyamuni buddha..oops. Most of the Korean buddhists are not very interested in Shakyamuni buddha's teachings.
I never thought I would be a buddhist but here I am...talking about buddhism. It was not by choice I have to say but I am very grateful.
I really really appreciate you writing such a thoughtful message.. very comforting.
thank you! wishing you a peaceful rest of the week!
Nearly all religions claim to be the only path to salvation/enlightenment/peace/what have you (the only one that I know of that doesn't is Sikhism), so it wouldn't surprise me that the Buddha's Kalama Sutta is basically a verbose, passive-aggressive way of telling the Kalamas that his way is the best one. But if you accept the proposition that religious traditions are products of time and culture, then it makes sense that in the modern world we tend to interpret things to match our own skepticism and emphasis on rationality. Religious traditions have their fair share of baggage that has been taken on over the centuries of their own evolution. This sort of touches on what @KarikoPuppies is talking about. Cultural "add-ons" like talisman selling, fortune telling, etc tend to get picked up from the folk religions of the culture that Buddhism (and even other religions) exist within. Not saying that any of those things are "wrong" or that certain cultures are "wrong," but rather that this sort of thing just tends to happen.
If you're really into picking a "religion" to join, and seeking the "truest" and "purest" version, then I wish you luck in your lifelong (or liveslong) endeavour. I don't believe that there is such thing as a "pure" religion that exists outside of the human condition. What is spirituality and religion but ways of trying to solve existential questions?
I don't see what's wrong with seeking the spiritual experience while trying to filter out what one feels is unnecessary. That's pretty much what all religions do over time. The Buddha learned stuff from Hindu and other Indian mystics, then came up with his own version. Mormonism builds off of Christianity. Christianity is building off of the Jewish tradition, and Islam builds off of both Judaism and Christianity. I realize 'm vastly simplifying here, but I hope you understand my point. There is nothing pure.
@Invincible_summer
Amen. Precis. Just det. (And all other shrieks of agreement.)
(But there will be a tiny little imp in my head saying "but what if there is a true path?". Perhaps that's just part of the package. I'm a person of both huge doubt and massive faith ...or no doubt at all and completely non-existent faith....
)
Outstanding.
This is how dharma is empowered and transferred. It is the goodwill generated. The accomodation of divergent cultures, understandings and methodolgies.
In the West, maybe in ways that appear disrespectful we do not automatically follow a formula or even social convention but at heart we are trying to engage with the dharma.
absolutely,
I think there are great number of buddhist at heart in the West , they just don't know about it themselves. I respect and admire those natural born buddhist at heart. thank you so much for reminding me such an awesome fact. wishing you a healthy and wonderful rest of the week!
@shim -- Nicely put.
At the risk of being repetitive, I once asked my Zen teacher what role hope and doubt played in Zen practice. "For the first four or five years of practice," he replied, "hope and doubt are necessary." And after four or five years, I asked. "After four or five years, they are not so necessary."
Hope and doubt fire up the willingness to practice at first. But as experience begins to take hold, belief and doubt are not so necessary. Experience trumps hope and doubt. Like riding a bicycle, hope and belief inspire action. After a period of skinned knees and other bruises, eventually the capacity to ride kicks in ... and the need to hope or believe you can ride the bicycle loses its relevance.
One thing practice teaches, though it's not often mentioned, is that belief is not one whisker different from doubt. If you find yourself believing, you may be sure it is a moment of doubt. Relax -- it's nothing special. With the passage of time and practice, huge doubt and massive faith relax the choke-hold that others may sometimes praise.
Doubt? OK.
Faith? OK.
Just keep on practicing.
^^^
Well said.
In alchemy this is coagualate and dissolve. Tighten and let go. Yin and Yang not just flowing into each other but being present in each other.
This is not a mind trick or learning lawyers/politicians expedient 'falsity/truth'.
The inherent certainty of personal opinion can accomodate its opposite. This is the difference between always being right and being flexible enough to be 'non righteous'.
It is about transparency, letting these harsh judgements, perfect dharmas and absolutes ... dissolve ...
Am I sure? ... not required in The Middle Way surely.
Be prepared for change? Expect it as inevitable ...