beautiful women make me cry
JetsFan366
Explorer
I've been doing some mind-body work lately and have realized that when looking at a beautiful woman (I am a hetero man) and I let my body do what it wants I have a strong negative physical reaction: my chest tightens, my face frowns and I often tear up. I believe it's because of my desire for her.
I've tried various things throughout my life to counter this; not being able to know and be with every beautiful woman making one sad is not a skillful way to go through life. I've tried just accepting it, fighting it, trying not to look at any beautiful women, but have had little success.
I didn't ask for these feelings or their intensity and they make me feel ashamed and sad. But at 38, I think they're just part of who I am and who I have become. I'm a very sensitive and emotional person, and think that this is just part of the package. Any advice?
many thanks
Comments
It sounds like you are more conscious about yourself around them. It is possible that you don't notice it around those other than beautiful ladies. You probably are having same kind of body language with those who you don't find attractive.
I found that some people like to make facial expressions a lot when they talk. In the part of the world where I originally come from, facial expressions while interacting with others are a bit unusual.
I think reminding yourself that beauty is just an illusion and that your senses are not reliable. And what you think of beauty at some point may not be the same the other time.
Me too. [sound of salty sobbing] Have you considered developing a skeleton fetish?
\ @mmo said:
Very interesting, I'll have to watch that. Though, I do know that I can just look at a picture of a beautiful woman and get those feelings, and do not have them with pictures of women I'm not attracted to.
I have a hard time with this. My belief is that we evolved and are conditioned to find certain things attractive. I don't see that as an illusion per se. I also tend to find the "it's an illusion" sentiment not very helpful. Telling myself that makes me feel like I'm lying to myself, because I don't really believe it. And I've thought long about it and haven't change my belief yet, unfortunately.
Thanks for the reply.
Haha - thanks lobster. I've tried that too (imagining them old/dead), but my next thought it, "So what if at some point they won't be attractive, they are now." The idea that they won't be someday does little for me to curb any desire.
I've also tried to imagine them without skin, etc, but again, it's like saying "Hey, if someone defigured her, how would I feel then?" Doesn't take me very far.
Why do you think that you have this specific reaction to beautiful women? or is it to all women? and where's the beauty line, is it a specific face type or body type? or just attractive on a broad objective scale?
Why do you wish to associate with beautiful women?
I'm wondering if there is a root to this that you are aware of?
When you say counter, what do you mean?
Have you had any relationship with a beautiful woman or if not any woman and if not beautiful, how far off were they and what did you find attracted you to them and how did you establish the bond etc - did you need to overcome an aversion of sorts irrespective?
In terms of advice, what are you looking to achieve?
Is there is a specific problem here? for example, you're not in a relationship and want to be or such?
what do you think you're missing out on for example?
Very generically, beauty is a double-edged sword I've found - with every adulation is carried an equal pang of anxiety and isolation - if you put a trait on a pedestal, then you will forever be looking up at it, perhaps going so far as to qualify as some form of quasi-worship.
In my experience, chest tightening is a sign of stress - stress around beautiful women is common - a stressed, desperate person is on the scale of unattractive qualities.
Crying from simply looking at a beautiful woman will most likely elicit a strong rebuke and likely therefore reinforce rejection archetypes - it is somewhat disconcerting that such a level of emotion is expressed over something seemingly so benign (i.e. simply by reason of a woman being present).
A frown face is probably alright however - in my experience, you have the best chance by not paying any mind to the beauty and striking straight through to the person - don't cut beauty any slack otherwise, in my opinion, it becomes an insurmountable threshold - in a way, it is an imposing open gate - by not being able to negotiate it as an obstacle, you are proving that it is insurmountable and as such the way is completely closed.
Inevitably however, if you are attracted to beauty, then you can see what the lure is as you're on the line already - in this sense, you should therefore respect it and act within the framework that supports the very notion of beauty itself - in short, if you're not beautiful and don't feel beautiful, step off the plate until you can stand there as an equal.
It takes commitment, consistency and focus but it is certainly possible to go from being say relatively unattractive to a certain demographic to being relatively attractive - the key to the mating game is working out what that is and then how to achieve it - one's skill in this regard is perhaps an expression of whether one is attractive or not.
thank you @Zero, I'll try to answer your questions.
Why do you wish to associate with beautiful women?
I'm wondering if there is a root to this that you are aware of?
I don't see it being much of a specific attraction. I do tend to be very attracted to athletic women. I wish to associate with them I think because I admire them and have found athletic women attractive since high school when many of the most attractive women in my school ran track. Perhaps I was doomed by spandex running pants from the start
Have you had any relationship with a beautiful woman or if not any woman and if not beautiful, how far off were they and what did you find attracted you to them and how did you establish the bond etc - did you need to overcome an aversion of sorts irrespective?
I am happily married with two children. I would rather not long so deeply for something I can't have. I believe that is where the physical reaction comes from: sadness that I can't 'have' that beauty. Not a feeling I am proud of or comfortable admitting, but hey, there it is. It's definitely not aversion tho. I have never cheated on my wife or any girlfriend. I once had a relationship with someone that I found very attractive and in about a month realized it takes a whole lot more than attraction for anything to last. That was a good life lesson. Still, the first few weeks were amazing. I wouldn't mind a few more of those
Is there is a specific problem here? for example, you're not in a relationship and want to be or such?
what do you think you're missing out on for example?
I guess I just want the feelings to be more manageable. I don't expect to be able to make myself not-attracted to beautiful women. But I feel like perhaps I have put it on a pedestal, but I don't know how to take it down. I suppose I link some self-worth with the attractiveness of my partner. Still, even if my wife was the most beautiful woman in the world, I know that I would still covet others.
I'm quite insulted by this question/thread.
How dare you objectify women in such a chauvinistic way...?
Until you stop looking at them as objects of desire and compartmentalising them into beautiful/attractive/pretty/ordinary/dull/ugly this will be a mill-stone around your neck.
You do realise that's what you're doing?
If you are singling out women you find attractive/pleasing, who give you this resulting emotion, it means you are discriminating and casting as irrelevant or inconsequential, the women who you don't find attractive/pleasing.
They're people. PEOPLE.
Human beings, just like you, all with different traits, characters, emotions, feelings, sensibilities and the right to be considered as completely equal to others. Regardless of what they look like.
Beautiful women can be bitches. It's only skin-deep.
Ugly women (I evaluate such women according to your standards) are often all heart and kindness.
Quit singling out specific looks as being od any importance.
They're not.
people matter, not what they look like.
I'm sick and tired of women being viewed according to how hot they make men feel.
Even aversion to such an image is a form of attraction....
Don't worry about it Fede. He started out by say he is hetero. If he had said he was gay and attracted to athletic guys you most certainly would not be so offended. You never took Dhammadragon to task over her lust for sexy gardeners.
And he is trying understand his feelings and manage them.
You should try it.
Love this thread...love the action.
Good work, everybody!
Still, it's unfortunate that some people don't recognize the good guys.
How can someone work on change without identifying the problem? If he sees what's wrong and mentions it, he's an asshole.
Let this be a lesson to any man who wants to work on his view of women and be better.
This is not the place to do it.
Indeed.
With practice the objects of attraction become less superficial. Not for me incidentally. However I would suggest that physical, hormonal responses are not the only way to evaluate. Not sure how to deal with attraction based on natural inclinations ...
The real, genuine, absolute beauty is not form based but independent of it.
@federica mentions some of the attractive qualities that are independent of form. We can search for beautiful qualities, attributes and people. Personally I find these make me cry in a very different way ...
Wow - judge much? I treat 'ugly' women the exact same way I treat attractive women - very well indeed. I said nothing about how I act to or value either. It's my feelings that I can't control that bother me, and that I'm having the guts to face, to bare to people, and to try to change. It's attitudes like yours that make it difficult for a man to be honest with how he feels. I don't control sexual desire and what I desire (or at least don't know HOW to control it). Trust me, if I could make myself physically attracted to the ugliest, nicest woman on the planet, I would because I'd stand a better chance at having a relationship with her.
Sounds to me like you have way more hangups on this issue to work through than I do.
Of course, when one gets to know someone, their qualities and failings become apparent.
Here, the OP is talking about feelings that come from physical attaction caused by seeing form.
Just saying it's wrong won't help. Judgement won't help. Your first suggestion is closest to the mark, @lobster. The traditional Buddhist means for countering lust.
@twaitsfan
This is just about an attachment. We all have them. We suffer according to them, plain and simple. It matters little if that attachment is politically correct or not, if it is offensive according to our own attachments or not.
It is suffering's cause, regardless of how we dress it up or down.
To address an attachment's hold over us requires the meditative effort to stop supporting ones habituated responses to it. This requires giving that specific meditative effort more of a priority in your life than whatever feedback that the attachment currently gives you.
Any other attachment that you've ever managed to address before has been no different.
This is really just about your identity (which is just a word for the sum total of your attachments) and what you are currently willing to challenge of it and what you are as yet, unwilling to.
Really...?
Or maybe it's just that I'm tired of women being the constant source of angst in men, and bearing the brunt of lustful thoughts and intentions.
And yes, frankly maybe @DhammaDragon's considerations towards finely-tuned muscular men would be seen under the same light, but her comments were more tongue-in-cheek and intended to be humorous. That's how most readers and respondents took it.
Humour is one thing.
I find little humour or light-heartedness in the persuasions behind this thread, and furthermore -
I don't feel bad at all.
In fact, it makes me feel all the more justified.
And proves my point.
Women are held as objects of desire, but paradoxically, are also an irritation to be vilified, criticised and condemned for holding strong opinions. Hey, providing they keep their mouths shut, everyone is happy.
I have an opinion as to how you view these women.
As a woman, I have a right to that opinion.
As much right as you have to voice your quandary.
I'm giving you the response an attractive, beautiful woman might give you, if you were to pose such a thought-process to her, verbally.
If it offends your sensibilities - welcome to the club.
Federica, women view men exactly the same way. This problem gets everyone in trouble.
The sexism is yours in this case.
As I've said before, my family is full of strong, educated, successful women. Their opinions are valued by me.
Forget it. Thanks for the shame, hooray samsara!
See you around real soon.
@how said: "@twaitsfan
This is just about an attachment. We all have them."
Yes...more simply and well put.
Btw, @federica and @robot are demonstrating the needed counterbalance in this discussion, to help see what is really going on IRL here.
I'm sure Fede's issue is less concerned with/upset by the view of attractiveness in and of itself than with the centuries of influence patriarchy and sexism have had on our society.
Men find women attractive, yes. (Sometimes men, too). And, yes, women find men attractive. (Sometimes women, too). The difference is, women haven't created the conditions for generations of gender inequality, while men have. It's so pervasive, it even permeates our language and we rarely recognize it. I honestly can't blame Fede for getting upset over the objectification of women and the focus on their beauty rather than them as a person.
It's admirable for someone to want to understand and change the way they react and relate to others, such as @twaitsfan seems to be doing. But at the same time, I think it's equally as understandable for women to be a little impatient with the level of progress that's been made.
We all have work to do here.
This therefore sounds like lust and as @how points out, it is an attachment as any other - the good news is that there is definitely things you can do to deal with it though I suppose equally the bad news is that it is not easy in that it necessitates a sort of death of a dear dear trusted friend - you've begun to see that this friend, though held dear, perhaps is not so trustworthy and by extension perhaps not a friend at all - it will be entirely for you as to how far such an insight takes you, how much more of your friend's lies you can stomach and where your life goes as a result.
Given the above and with respect, I point out that the definition of happy is under a measure of strain here - consider carefully what a random 'beautiful' woman could bring that the family you have built cannot - what is really important to you I suppose.
This is a challenging point for me to advise on as I don't relate to it as much as I would like to in order to put myself as close as possible to what I consider your position may be and ergo, what I may speculate I would do in similar circumstances.
I think by way of an interim answer, perhaps deal with it as an attachment and see what unfolds.
It's good that you can admit it - this is a good step towards reconciling it - I think somewhere you will have to address how you value things and what those values mean to you - what is important and what is fabricated to support the status quo - it is not an easy process and often one's most treasured and highly regarded traits, under such scrutiny reveal the most unexpected and I suppose unsavoury consequences - I have not found an 'easy answer / shortcut / solution' to facing these issues - it takes courage, it is necessarily painful but it is possible with simply an honest commitment - to not just see but to go beyond and become it so it is not something to aim towards but something you are - it is a choice of how you express yourself.
This is challenging to reconcile, especially as you end with a bare speculation amounting to a permanent condition - I propose that you could not possibly know this outcome especially so that all changes therefore the statement is an indication of the amount of focus, determination and consistency you have invested in the idea / concept or in another way, a measure of how far you have to retract / let go to return to a position where perhaps you are not moved either way.
How to do this?
Broadly I think, by honest, committed practice - as with all attachments.
I suppose it is tough considering what the motivation for this may be - whether it is a desire for the feelings to just subside or for something more, perhaps for the feelings to re-attach to your wife or something else, a peace perhaps whatever that may be.
If you have a commitment to practice then perhaps this shall assist as it is certainly a subject of practice.
I wish you all the best of outcomes in all your endeavours.
I think reason of your sorrows is denied attention by beautiful girls/ladies. In this case girls/ladies are are not at fault, it is the own ego which is getting hurt and it needs to feed proper thinking. Anapana might help.
One must accept reality and enjoy things suitable to age.
The only way to deal with this type of issue is head on. Which means talking about how we feel.
So of course it's fair for @Federica to express her feelings. But there is a time for listening and offering advice as some have done. Do we want a solution or not?
Alienating the men who are seeking a solution is unskillful.
@Federica your response cuts off the path to solutions. It has the opposite affect, by driving the wedge deeper. Maybe once you might see when you are wrong and admit it.
Also suggesting that objectifying people is ok when it's done in jest, is hypocritical and offensive.
That said, I have no problem with Dhammadragon's lustful thoughts. It's pretty normal. So long as the family is not affected.
There is no denying the oppression of women through history and today.
I recently had a conversation with my sister about her problems dealing with the contractors who are renovating her office. She owns a drug and alcohol counselling business and is a completely self made professional. It's very frustrating for her to be taken as a silly woman by tradesmen.
But, the blame for men's attitudes has to lie with both parents. Our, (Federica's and my) generation were raised mainly by stay at home mothers, with fathers who may not have participated as much as they should have. That's the way I remember it. Men and women accepted the situation for the most part.
Mothers raise sons too. Often they are in the position to influence boys the most.
Every day we can see the same attitudes being perpetuated in little boys and girls by both parents.
I'm not blaming women again here. I'm just saying that boys become men.
We don't become sexist on our own as men. We are trained that way. Unlearning takes time and effort.
We can't be blamed for being sexist, but we can be blamed for choosing to stay that way.
I get what you're saying, and you had me until:
Which I think misses the point, and does kind of sound like you're putting blame on women.
Think of it this way. For much of history, women have had to accept things the way they were, they didn't have much choice. Men were in charge. Women stayed home and took care of the kids and men went out and 'worked,' which meant everything from working in grocery stores to running cities. They made the laws and enforced them. Women weren't police officers, lawyers, or judges. They couldn't vote. They were segregated from a large part of society, and a large portion of them were conditioned to feel that this was natural (or at least that there wasn't much they could do about it). Much the same can be said of what happened to blacks from the start of slavery to the end of Jim Crow.
Now things are a little different. But it takes a long time to undo that kind of pervasive conditioning, a process of undoing that we're still in the middle of. And it's been countless women who have actively been working on that undoing. Women have literally had to fight for the right to have an education, to vote, to hold public office, to work, to have equal pay, to have equal marriage rights, to have access to contraception, to have maternity leave, the list goes on. Women have been doing the majority of the work for this for generations; and frankly, I think it's perfectly fair to expect men to start doing a little more, first by being educated of the problem, and then by doing something about it.
So while I agree that this unlearning takes time, it's not up to the women to do the unlearning.
@Jason
So while I agree that this unlearning takes time, it's not up to the women to do the unlearning.
Perhaps you meant to say..." So while I agree that this unlearning takes time, it is not only up to women to do the unlearning.
I think that the meditative practice side of the Buddha's teachings, calls for both women and men to do the unlearning of all forms of ignorance.
Calling for just one particular sex or the other to do the unlearning, while politically correct for today's society, still leaves sufferings cause in place.
Reasonable.
And I wasn't suggesting that the unlearning needs to be done by women.
But now that you mention it, why wouldn't mothers need to learn how to raise their boys without instilling harmful stereotypes?
As a father who has raised two children, a son and a daughter, and faced the myriad choices that parents face about what values to teach, without having had the benefit of two equal and enlightened parents myself, and with a spouse with the same type of background, I feel that I am in a position to speak with some small authority about the issue. There is learning and unlearning by both parents. It's a family issue.
I've seen how my own upbringing affected my parenting and the same for my children's mother. I've seen that there is no inherent understanding that comes with motherhood that prevents the mother from acting out the effects of her upbringing on her children, anymore than there is with fatherhood.
I'm sorry you think I'm blaming women here. I'm not. Just seeing things the way I see them.
I have no doubts about my relations with the women in my life or them with me. I have nothing to be ashamed of.
I think you both may be missing my point; and I suggest rereading what I wrote in the context of the topic and the comments its generated.
For one, I'm not talking about individual examples, I'm talking about the problem as a whole and why women deserve to get upset over being objectified while being explained by men why they shouldn't.
Secondly, I agree that women should try to escape the deep, psychological conditioning that patriarchal gender stereotypes are acceptable or natural. That said, I think the impetus really needs to start being on men as a whole to change their behaviour. Women aren't to blame for the existence of patriarchy, nor have they been the primary force behind its continuation; but they've been doing most of the work to combat it.
We all seem to agree that change takes time; and @twaitsfan illustrates it can be difficult as a man to undo this deep conditioning. But I don't think men are the victims here.
OP, I'm sorry, I can't relate. "Wanting to be with every beautiful woman"? Really?? I guess it's a guy thing?
That really does seem like "grasping", as they call it in Buddhism. What about women who are plain or average, but have wonderful, loving personalities? You don't desire them?
Just trying to get my mind around this. But at least you're aware now that there's an issue. That's always the first step to resolving it, they say.
It seems to me that both twaitsfan and Federica expressed their feelings honestly and openly. They certainly differ in expressive style. I recognize twaitsfan's feelings. I don't experience them myself since adulthood, but I think most men would certainly recognize what he's describing (with enviable courage). I admire his ability to view and describe his feelings from an objective distance.
Over the years we've had members here express an amazing breadth of attitudes, sexual perspectives, and soul-baring descriptions, so Federica's (seemingly) sudden anger here surprised me. But like twaitsfan, she's being open about her feelings.
One more thing (in disagreement with Jason): if I feel lust, I don't think it's because previous generations objectified women; I don't think it has anything at all to do with previous generations or current cultural mores. I think it's simple preprogrammed biology. I wouldn't act on it, nor be very likely to discuss it. I don't think I can prevent feelings, but I can control my words and actions.
You're not disagreeing with me because I never suggested that attraction = objectification. Is the point I'm trying to make really that obscure?
Are you in a committed relationship with a woman? Somehow I didn't see that critical piece of info in your post.
If yes, try to work on the romantic side of the relationship.
If no, try to get to know the said beautiful women. Maybe give them some flowers or invite for a coffee (one at a time
)
Maybe it's a matter of selective seeing, hearing, realizing....?
Is your point obscure? I don't know. But you do seem to think we're missing it. Reread your posts tomorrow. I don't think you'll separate your internal thoughts from your written words tonight.
You see, some men are attracted to tall athletic beautiful women. Others are attracted to bigger women, some to redheads, some to brunettes. Some to hunky men. Don't get hung up on what kind of human the op is attracted to. The humans that @twaitsfan is attracted to might do nothing for me. He's talking about his feelings. Should be obvious.
When reacting to seeing a person that is attractive to you, which is what the op is about, personality doesn't enter into it. That's the problem that he's trying to address. I've lived it. I know the feeling and I agree with @Steve_B. It's instinct.
It's a human thing, not a guy thing.
Of course it's attachment. This is Buddhism Basics.
There are meditations used by monks to overcome lust in monastic training called asubha (not beautiful) meditation.
Beauty is really only skin deep. Honestly. Thank God we don't have Xray eyes.
Just one point:
My mother (a pure-blood full Italian, from a rigid Catholic family) left school at the age of 13, but defied all convention, was not a stay-at-home mum, and unlike her other 5 sisters, carved not one, not two but three qualified, certified diplomaed careers for herself.
Her example of independence, defiance of the norm and her refusal to kow-tow to the mores and traditions of family life (as @robot has hinted) made her many enemies. But it helped shape my attitudes and points of view, and gave me the shining example that women have every just as much right to be viewed with as much respect, courtesy, dignity and value as any man who has done the same.
Every single brick wall my mother was blocked by - and ultimately demolished - was put in her way by a patriarchal, male-controlled system which strived to curtail her progress, and which much to my admiration, failed miserably.
I am a product of my upbringing.
My mother carved a niche for herself, made a name for herself and achieved a great amount, in spite of many obstacles.
It is she who helped shape my attitudes through her extraordinary will, determination and sheer bloody-mindedness.
And for that, I shall be eterally grateful.
By Jove. That is a beautiful liver...
/Victor
Yes kind of.
It is a difficult subject. Many feelings and no real statistics involved.
Well yes there are statistics of women and men being traded as cattle to satisfy the desires of men.
And statistics of wages and workplace discrimination...
and statistics of rape and assaults of women by men and so on but...
Most men on this planet do not give into their genetic or learnt urge to force themselves onto the very next women they see.
Nor do they knowingly discriminate a women more than the next comparable women.
So I kinda think, on that account, we men are doing pretty ok. But we are not home yet.
What is more subtle is the way each man handles those (for some) more or (for some) less imposing hardwired urges.
And I think that we could learn a lot from each other if we could and would discuss it.
This thread was an attempt at just that.
Sad to see it shot from the sky before it even got of.
And no I do not think women get this even with their vile lust for sexy gardeners.
.
/Victor
Not sure if this is helpful but it sure helps me,
If you try and change others to fit your projection of how things should be, you will suffer this projection.
I know it's hard for us to do, we all want the world to change but it simply won't. We just end up making ourselves unhappy.
Rather be at peace within right? Unless we enjoy suffering. Which some of us do.
@twaitsfan thanks for sharing, I can emphasise with you on this one. I have a strong conditioning with pretty girls as well, I'm sure it stems from my school days where I was never noticed by many girls. Many times unwholesome thoughts arise around woman but you eventually see that these thoughts are only conditioning. Don't take it personally, you can't help what you think.
How you act is different. If you notice your reactions and let them go, they get less and less.
@lobster made a great post about meditating on bodily organs, trust me it works. We are wired to perceive a certain way but we can change this.
@federica thanks for sharing your mothers story, I can see you have inherited her spirit
Traditional Buddhist methodology relies on 'aversion visualisation' or meditating with a corpse (where available).
Ye olde Christian method was self flagellation and anaphrodisiacs such as monks pepper. Islamic dervishes used to 'stare at the beardless' basically trying to trancend the beauty of young boys as a way into appreciation of divine beauty ... Fell into disrepute ...
... what we may need is the help of a goddess like Kwanyin ... Have you tried praying to Buddha Babes?
Imagine her on the toilet.
and an Insightful too ...
Well, I've reread my posts and still stand by them, as well as the points I was trying to make. My main reason for involving myself in this thread was to try and point out to all the men telling Fede why she shouldn't be upset about women (especially 'beautiful women') being seen as objects of desire rather than as whole persons that her frustrations are understandable. I feel an obligation as a man to admit that the existence of patriarchy and all that comes with it is mostly a problem of our making, as well as an obligation to make other men aware of how they're contributing to its existence.
It's good that @twaitsfan is aware of his problem with lust that's also fully immersed in objectification. It's a good start. But it's not good, in my opinion, for men to tell women they shouldn't be upset about it when they have every right to be.
Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu Channel on YOutube might help you about this in detail.
Another point I want to make since there seems to be some confusion about it is that attraction ≠ objectification. One example I can give to help illustrate this is a recent study published in the journal Psychological Science, which found that "both men and women see images of sexy women's bodies as objects, while they see sexy-looking men as people"—a conclusion I think demonstrates that such a gender bias exists in the perception of both men and women, further reinforcing my belief that sexism and the objectification of women is a broader symptom of a society that's practiced patriarchy for centuries, as well as corroborating evidence that patriarchal ideology has become so ingrained into our collective psyche that even women are conditioned to objectify women in the same way as men (i.e., you can objectify without lust).
So yes, it's difficult for us not to do it because it's such an ingrained part of our existence. But it is there, and it's not simply because 'biology.'
My problem with Federica's response has nothing to do with her objection to women being objectified. She should feel any way she feels. It was her inappropriate response that I have a problem with.
She attacked the op for asking for advice about how to deal with the problems that she demanded him to stop doing.
Her response was aimed at cutting off a mans attempt to even examine the problem from his own point of view. Now the thread is sunk. It's a control problem that she has.
That's the way it looks to me.
Boys and men are shamed for having and expressing their feelings in all societies even by their mothers and fathers sometimes.
That is what you have done, @federica. Your rush to judgement is working against your wish for men to be more enlightened about women's right to be equal in all things.
Ask @twaitsfan about how willing he is to now discuss his feelings on this forum. Ask me.
To @robot -- Most of what you just said I find to be astute -- with the exception of this: "Now the thread is sunk." It may turn to ashes, but if I know forums - it will be reincarnated at some place up the road a piece...I don't think it's skillful for you to discourage further discourse in this thread and the connections that were made.
@silver I was observing that the thread is no longer occurring at the top of the recent discussions page. Which tells me that a moderator has deliberately "sunk" it. So it will continue down the page until it eventually disappears as an active thread.
I have NOT sunk this thread.
Let me just be absolutely clear on that.