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Sitting
woods93
Explorer
What positions do you guys use for meditation? I've been trying half lotus and its killing my ankle and knee. Will I get used to this or should I find another way?
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I've meditated for 15 years and it has changed for me. Just gradually. I used to do 1/2 lotus and my feet were more on top of my knees than they are now. Now they are more tucked on top of my thigh. I could (with feet on top of knee) only do 20 minutes before my legs went numb. Now I am more tucked on top of my thighs perhaps more burmese style and I can go 40 minutes easy without numbness. I didn't initiate the change it just sort of happened.
I sit upright in a chair, feet touching the floor. Also, when I practice yoga, I'll meditate in some poses.
We are trying to end suffering not find ways to experience more . . .
Find another way. Sado masochism or aping other cultures is not the middle way. The 'egyptian posture' is fine, used by many sangha for its elderly/western/disabled/ill members.
I tend to sit on the floor burmese style as I am too mean to buy chairs. In a Sangha setting I tend to use half lotus in case anyone thinks I am half not serious.
Meditation can be practiced standing. Taoists do this and if you don't fall asleep, you can use the advanced 'corpse posture' of yoga, or find something more attention grabbing. Yoga is a good complimentary or preparatory practice for Raja Yoga (meditation).
Whatever works. I sit crosslegged, I can sit half lotus and sometimes full after having done yoga, I mediate when I walk, and when I lay in bed. And some days, when I am on the couch because my knee hurts to get on the floor. Meditating is meditating no matter which way your knees are bent.
I just sit crossed legged, pelvis raised by a cushion or something. I often wrap blankets around my ankles to stop the numbness.
Palms on top and thumbs touching.
But hey, for me it's whatever's fairly comfortable.
Too comfortable and you go to sleep or day dream, uncomfortable and you are not likely going to want to sit.
If my leg goes to sleep, I just keep sitting. It won't fall off. Just don't get up quickly.
I tried half lotus etc, but I train everyday at a gym. My mobility takes a beating so I don't worry about full lotus etc.
Plus I'm not likely to sit for much more than an hour a time so I don't feel I need to do it.
I sit up, propped up against a wall, erect, or sitting up on my bed.
@woods93 , where is it written that it is inarguably essential to adopt a lotus position, and that absolutely no other position is correct, acceptable, permissible or allowed?
Answer? Nowhere.
Sit in a comfortable, but alert position.
Remain balanced but be gentle with your body.
It's the only one you got.
Burmese or half lotus. Then at the end of the sitting I tend to collapse into a forward fold. I have no discipline. :P
Meditation is about developing the mind, not about yogic contortions.
Find a position which is basically comfortable. Try a stool or a chair.
In ye olde days, Western chair sitters pretended they were oriental and loved sitting on the floor - like many of their teachers. Not required. I have seen people fall asleep in full lotus whilst meditating (attacked by the sloth) ... may have even done it myself
Here is my blog page on sitting and meditating
http://yinyana.tumblr.com/day/2014/11/06
You will notice references to walking meditation and prostrations, pre-sitting practices that will also benefit in improved knees and ankles ...
There are even puja meditations in tantra that keep you so busy with ringing bells, chanting to magical creatures, waving your hands about and generally keeping monkey mind busy, so that no attention is paid to knees and ankles.
Keep it real
Ali Gi
And you think you have problems @woods93
On a more serious note....
In time, it should start to feel more comfortable...Give it time...
Or perhaps like others have already mentioned you might find the Burmese style more comfort long term
You may try half padmasan and afterwards try padmasan. It is said that padmasan is most comfirtable posture after some practice. It will also help knee joint to remains strong in older age.
Well unless you've been doing it since you were very young, your legs and hip joints are going to need a lot of flexibility training to get into lotus easily. There are a few stretches I have found very helpful: Pidgeon Stretch is probably the best one I know of.
Burmese posture. Still cross legged, but does not kill your knee/ankle.
I think everyone finds his or her own balance between sado-masochistic mimicry and a direct investigation of what sometimes manifests as physical pain in life. It is not possible to generalize about either aspect: When your legs hurt, I'm not the one who says "ouch."
Everyone starts out by aping others. How long that can or should continue is ... your call. And everyone needs to address pain in a way that is more fruitful than simply "run away!" ... mental pain, physical pain: same stuff from where I sit.
The balance point may be hard to find, but I think that anyone who keeps practicing will find that point as a matter of course.
I am always stumped as to why people tend to think that if you are not sitting in lotus or half-lotus, it can't be called meditation.
The idea is to sit in the position which feels more comfortable for allowing our mind to relax.
Whatever position relaxes our body will release our minds.
As simple as that.
I do find half-lotus to be the ideal position for me to keep an upright back, but I have seen people in different groups sitting on chairs, lying down, with back against the wall...
I like to stretch my body a bit beyond its comfort zone, but not to the point of making my posture the focus of my meditation... instead of the meditation.
I reckon the yogic contortions people get attached to are basically cultural baggage. I started on cushions then moved to a stool, then a chair. The only difference I noticed was being more comfortable, it certainly didn't have a detrimental effect on my practice. Fortunately most Buddhist centres and groups now provide chairs.
Comfortably. I usually sit in a chair (padded when possible, thank you).
40 years of Seiza (kneeling) on a zafu right up until this summer when a bike accident moved me into a chair.
Not a wit of difference between these two postures as far as affecting my interactions with my sense data streams.
I think any position that doesn't require a lot of muscular strain to maintain or lead to the opposite issue of sleepiness, is OK.
A line I always liked is, "There is a difference between just sitting and just sitting."
Very interesting guys,
Particulary relevant for me is the idea that discomfort does arise. As well as some physical squirming, most of us soon become familiar with the 'I don't like sitting' mental squirm and its kin.
I was also reminded of meditation classes I attended at college. We sat in chairs and one of the points of focus was the heart. I had been taught this was potentially dangerous, so was a little dubious. We described our experiences and gave feedback and were given homework. Years later I was given a similar dervish heart meditation and was quite happy to do it ...
So many ways. All seem attention centred ...
@lobster said "Years later I was given a similar dervish heart meditation and was quite happy to do it ..."
if regular old heart meditation sounded scary, what do you think 'dervish heart meditation' sounds like to the rest of us?
(I'll pass on the 2nd heart surgery, thx)
My sitting meditation has been non-existent for a couple of months due to my leg/back pain. I brought home a 'posture trainer' from my chiropractor a couple days ago. It's basically a set of foam blocks that I lay on the floor for 15-20 minutes a day to help correct posture. Since I'm laying on it anyways, I'm going to start meditating at the same time.
I think the whole half lotus and full lotus are there to allow one to sit for extended periods of time. Hour +
I still get numb legs when I meditate, I was told that it's just nerve pinch due to not being flexible. It's not lack if blood like some people think. It won't cause your leg to fall off.
Being fully comfortable in meditation is also a hindrance, you are much more likely to dream if completely relaxed.
Being upright,self supported and aware helps a lot.
I've tried a couch with my back supported and i ended up getting super relaxed and drowsy.
Bottom line, don't worry about a little bit of numbness. Don't be comfortable and don't be uncomfortable! Middle way right!
You have to be aware of the context and the fact that visualisation healing techniques (which may even be called 'meditation' as it is fashionable/mainstream) are sometimes based around the physical. Our 'teacher' of meditation had mentioned his experience and background which was quite limited and he admitted this. I pointed out that I had read from several sources that focus on the heart could interfere with its natural rhythm.
Metta bhavna is 'heart based' and perfectly safe.
A little discerment is required. Alternate nostril breathing is taught in many classes as a 'relaxing' breath. Until recently it had the opposite effect on me, making me anxious and nervous. That was because of my physiology and unbalanced breath. I would point out that it did not work for me and I would usually be given an alternative.
Breath awareness used in some Buddhist techniques makes us aware of our breathing. In time it deepens and so our physiology is changed naturally, safely and helpfully.
I would agree, but would add "straight spine" to that.
Although, not too straight, but just properly straight.
When the student is ready-the teacher will appear! You're the student & teacher (self taught) rolled into one @woods93 , you will find a suitable position when you are ready...
That sounds like masochism. How does it help to be uncomfortable?
Helps to keep one awake perhaps.....Not too uncomfortable mind
Fetch the comfy chair!
Just to mention some of the advantages of the lotus posture (starting with half lotus).
The longest I have managed, after a lot of yoga and daily practice for several months is an hour.
The important thing is understanding that meditation is the quickest way to understand Buddhas teachings, in combination it can transform us, maybe even into Buddhas ...
Iz plan! >
@how said:
Exactly so.
Much, MUCH harder for some than chairs or floors is regular sustained practice. People mention irregular practice, unusual chanting, devotional practices etc.
Really we are facing our mind, or sitting with our being. Direct. Raw. Simple. We all know it. We have all heard the words and teachings ... can we as @genkaku says, 'just sit'
Masochism is like sitting on a bed of nails while meditating. I'm talking about having some numbness or discomfort is ok. It helps you see how our aversions manifest in direct experience.
It also helps you stay alert and awake.
Can you imagine, your job was a sentry for a base and you were on night watch. Your job is to be fully aware and awake.
I'm sure they wouldn't recommend you sit with your back against a wall covered in blankets and pillows.
Likewise if you are on a bed of nails, you would be to worried about pain.
Meditation for me is not a lofty, blissful relaxing attempt. It's about seeing what's true and what isn't. I need to be aware and awake. So I adopt a mostly comfortable position.
If I want relaxing blissful meditation, why not lie down and listen to bamboo flutes. It depends what you are after.
That reminds me of a time in the Army Reserve, we were on a night exercise and had established a base camp in some woods, we'd dug slit trenches and so on. Most of our unit went off to raid the "enemy" base, another Reserve unit on the same exercise. A few of us were left to guard our base camp since we were expecting a raid from the "enemy" unit. Our men were gone for ages and I fell asleep. I woke suddenly to the sound of twigs breaking, shadowy figures were fast approaching, I thought it was the enemy so I opened up with my machine gun, still half asleep. As it turned out it was our men returning, I'd missed the password, ho hum, all rather embarrassing. Good job we were firing blanks!
But, yes, returning to the topic, I'd agree that it's important to remain awake and alert while meditating. But I still don't see that as incompatible with being in a comfortable meditation posture, or at least free from physical discomfort. Why endure physical discomfort when there is no need? It's hardly going to increase one's motivation to sit.
For many meditators, their own meditative postures, often associated with the arising of their own understandings, seldom receive the same level of scrutiny for attachments that we give everything else.
Here we are actually dancing with the delusional belief that some attachments, if imbued with enough spiritual significance, don't actually result in suffering, which is simply the denial of the 4NT.
Hahaha loved your reserve story! Sounds like something I would do.
I don't know what type of meditation you do but with trying to concentrate the mind it's important to stay one pointed. If you are 30 minutes in and your leg goes numb, sure you can move. But you will lose concentration and it will go numb again 10 minutes later. So you never really get fully one pointed.
The other point is that the discomfort won't kill you are even have any lasting negative effects. It's not harmful at all, so why the aversion to it? We can see the aversion is conditioned. Discomfort is a great mechanism to watch how it works, rather than run away from pain. You even get to the point where the discomfort doesn't matter. It's just a transient sensation. Only our thoughts say it's bad. It's interesting to watch this occurring.
Yes, that's probably a relevant point as I mostly do samatha. I guess with vipassana you could explore the sensation of physical discomfort.
In the lost suttas of the Spiny Nikaya the Buddha is portrayed gaining enlightenment in a comfy chair after consuming vast quantities of ice cream.
Ice Cream Meditation...Milk Shake Meditation..Banana Split Meditation.
Sounds delightfule but an express ticket to the Mult-Bypass Meditation.
CODE BLUE!
Each leg need to give chance to keep above on another at each sittings seperately in padmasan. Otherwise only one leg will develop more with respct to other.
It seems hard at start but soothing afterwards.
Legs hurting or going numb would be a deal breaker for me. I find I can sit cross legged for 30 min or so. Otherwise a chair is fine, a recliner is fine, a bed is fine. Posture is irrelevant as long as it's not a distraction.
As long as your hips are above your kneecaps and your spine can extend fully and easily balance (each vertebrae on one another) then you are good to go!
I think most peoples' hips are above their kneecaps....
Not in a recliner. But it doesn't bother me a bit.
Pretty sure that this is what I look like while meditating.