Buddhists are wrong about pleasure/enjoyment
MattMVS7
New
I have come up with a theory that I am seeking to fully debate and come to a conclusion with. I really wish to come to a conclusion so that I know the answer to my theory as to whether it is true or not. I was engaging a debate with my theory with some Buddhists on some other forum, but I never got the chance to fully debate and come to a conclusion since my account got banned for some reason. I was just a polite gentlemen, did not criticize or demean anyone, had no intention of spamming or bothering anyone, therefore, I just don't understand why my account has been banned there. All I was doing was just looking for an intellectual debate so that I can find out the answer to this interesting theory of mine.
Therefore, here is the topic I was engaging in a debate with. I want others to fully read that topic and all of its pages. Then continue the debate here since I can no longer continue the debate over at that other forum since my account has been banned there:
Comments
I'm not interested in walls of text but if you can be concise?
Then I'm afraid it is all pointless if you are not going to bother reading it because this would mean that I would have to debate everything I just debated from that forum over to here all over again. I am not going to waste my time and typing doing this all over again. So instead, read everything first and then continue the debate from there.
no thanks.
Then just take note that I have created this very topic for those who are interested in fully reading that topic and in continuing the debate here.
understood.
With respect, why would we debate?
If any of us were eloquent and compelling enough to convince the other - we would be left with a new mental construct to replace the old mental construct when really, all we had to do is open our eyes, experience it for ourselves, and know.
Our experiences do not define reality. Science is what defines reality.
Yet by experience we learn and advance sciences. If I cannot learn from my experience I cannot run experiments. For example if I cannot learn from my experience I cannot run a chemical synthesis. I need to know the technique and abstract knowledge and physically do it. Without experiences nobody could practice or understand science.
You are right. But my whole theory (that whole topic) explains that what we think is the experience of pleasure, enjoyment, and reward with our reward system turned off due to depression and/or anhedonia, that is fake. We are fooling ourselves into thinking we are having it while struggling with depression and/or anhedonia. But pleasure, enjoyment, and rewarding experience can only come from our pleasant feelings/emotions from our reward system.
Therefore, the version of pleasure, enjoyment, and rewarding experience that Buddhists say we can have in our lives, that version is fake. Pleasure, enjoyment, and rewarding experience do not belong in the realm of Buddhism and the realm of our own personal created meanings in life. They instead belong in the realm of science since they are scientific terms.
At some point your reward system is going to be turned off. The streams of old age, sickness, and death. So depression turning off pleasure and enjoyment is predicted by Buddha rather than contradictory.
Pleasure and pain are 2 of the '8 worldly winds'. Buddhism is about turning away from trying to have only pleasure and no pain. It is not a cure to pain. In that stand it avoids deceiving.
Actually, Buddhists say that we can still have pleasure and enjoyment in our lives even while depressed and/or anhedonic with our reward system turned off. So I was just pointing out here how that is false. I have used my theory to explain how that is false.
No. Buddhists say pleasure/pain is one of the 8 worldly winds. You can have pleasure though but it is not guaranteed in the case of physical (and mental) ailments. And depression is a mixture in my experience. I have had years of bad mental state but it wasn't 100% bad there were also good moments.
So you can have enjoyment but you can't have ONLY enjoyment and NEVER pain.
I think you are assuming depressed people never go in remission. Depression is probably a life long struggle, but at the same time people can have pretty wonderful lives despite depression.
But no pleasure and pain are part of the 8 worldly winds which is what distracts us from real meditation. You might spend 10 years meditating to feel pleasure but in reality that was just a distraction.
Well, since we all agree here then that pleasure and enjoyment are scientific terms and can only come from our pleasant feelings/emotions from our reward system, then this same concept also applies to having good meaning in one's life. In other words, since having good meaning in one's life is always a rewarding mental experience for us as human beings, then good is also a scientific term as well. It would also come from our reward system. It would be our pleasant feelings/emotions from our reward system.
For example, if you had disrewarding pain and misery to earn a trophy and win a game, then the trophy, the game, and the team would be a rewarding mental experience for you in despite of your pain and misery since the game, the trophy, and the team have good value and worth to you.
But if you did not experience any pleasant feelings/emotions from your reward system despite your pain and misery, then the team, the trophy, and the game would actually not be of any good value and worth to you and you would only be fooling your brain into thinking that they give good meaning to you and your life when they really don't.
Yes if you feel bad then you feel bad. If you feel good you feel good. That is just tautology. Buddha doesn't guarantee you enjoy a game.
But you have not responded to my argument that pleasure/pain are 8 worldly winds.
That said it can be helpful and reasonable to try to get feeling good. It's complicated problem and there are more than one motivations to meditate. You can meditate to feel good. Sure. And you can do healthy things. But you are not guaranteed to even feel over 15% good. You might feel 90% horrible. Some people feel better than others just like some have more money or intelligence.
And how is pleasure defined by science? Is it self reported from a questionair or is it by measuring something physiological like brain scans or dopamine?
That's because I am not sure what you mean when you say "8 worldly winds."
Research it
http://www.alexox.com/sangha/hopeandfear.html
The scientific definition of things is the truth. Since there is a scientific version of a lion, then you cannot become a lion. If you personally define yourself as being a lion, that will obviously not make it happen. So in that same sense, since there is a scientific version of pleasure/enjoyment, then the version of pleasure/enjoyment that Buddhists and others say we can have in our lives is fake.
There are two different worlds. "Over here" and "over there." "Over here" is the world of science. But "over there" is the world outside of science. Namely Buddhism and the world of personally creating our own meanings in life. The term "rewarding experience" is scientific and belongs in the world of science. It is our pleasant feelings/emotions from our reward system since our reward system is the only function of our brains that can give us a rewarding experience.
But since we all know that pleasure and enjoyment are always and can only be rewarding mental experiences for us as human beings as I've repeatedly explained in my topic, then pleasure and enjoyment do not belong "over there." They belong "Over here" with the term "rewarding experience" which is in the realm of science. Therefore, pleasure and enjoyment are scientific terms and do not belong in the world of Buddhism or in the world of our personally created meanings in life.
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what is the scientific version of pleasure? For example how could you establish scientifically if I (right here) am having pleasure or not? Science could establish a lion by examining the biology rubric used to classify animals. But how would science establish whether I am feeling enjoyment or not? Also strictly speaking 'lion' is a mental label. If a lion cub has a mutation is it still a lion? If it evolves to something else (over generations) then where is the cut off point between a 'lion' and a new species. Mental label.
I don't understand what you mean by "Over here" and "over there" I think you mixed up their usage in your post?
Why is Buddhism not in the realm of science? For me it is just observing my mind.
First off, what I meant by "over here" and "over there" were nothing more than just descriptions to make it easier and more convenient for me to explain what I just explained. Also, the scientific version of pleasure is obviously our rewarding mental experiences. We already know what our rewarding mental experiences are in terms of science. They are our pleasant feelings/emotions from our reward system.
So all mental experiences are science? Or are some not?
For me it's silly to say 'my reward system is broken' and just give up. And yes I have mental problems. I do recogize that I have a chemical imbalance. Buddhism cannot cure my chemical imbalance.
So I think you are right that Buddhists are wrong about pleasure and enjoyment.
All our mental experiences are defined by science. We cannot transform our mental experiences magically by will. Since it is the functioning of the atoms and particles of our brains that defines all our different mental experiences, then in order to transform one mental experience into another by our personally created meanings in life such as telling ourselves that we can still experience sight and hearing while blind and deaf through our thoughts alone, then we would have to transform the thinking function of our brains into sight and hearing. We would have to transform the functioning of the atoms and particles that define our experience of thought over to a whole new version of sight and hearing for us.
Therefore, this is impossible. Therefore, our personal created meanings in life do nothing for us. They are nothing more than labels. They do not actually change our mental experiences. If a depressed and/or anhedonic person thinks and says that he/she still has joy and pleasure in his/her life since he/she still has family and friends, then that does not make it so. That will not transform any function in his/her brain into the experience of pleasure and enjoyment for him/her while his/her reward system is turned off.
I think you mean 'nature' rather than science. Science does not completely understand the relationship between brain molecular events and 'thought'. Science is what learns about nature but does not know everything about nature (yet).
So I think you mean 'nature' rather than 'science'. Or nature could be 'truth'.
I disagree with you saying that thought does not change our mental experience. Do you really think that? There is evidence on meditations effects on the brain and experience. Do you really think thoughts have no effect? What about therapy and 'reframing' and all that good stuff? Of course we cannot use thought to bring back damaged eye organs or bring back Alzheimers. Drugs can also affect the brain and experience.
I also feel the term 'reward system' is vastly oversimplified in our discourse. It isn't like an either 'on' or 'off'. And also there is neuroplasticity.
If we train our brains, then we can certainly gain brain function to help us feel less depressed and perhaps help us recover from our anhedonia/calm down stress. But as long as our reward system is still completely turned off due to depression and/or anhedonia, it does not transform our thoughts or our other brain functions into the experience of pleasure, joy, enjoyment, and reward for us just like how it wouldn't transform those same functions into sight and hearing for a blind and deaf person.
Yes if you have depression it can help but it is not a cure. I've never met a Buddhist who said meditation totally cured their depression. The same goes for Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I think it does help but it is not a cure. The same can be said for talking therapy with regards to major depression and GAD. It helps but not cure.
As for my explanation regarding how pleasure, joy, and enjoyment can only come from our pleasant feelings/emotions from our reward system, the world where we create our own personal meanings in life (morality and philosophy) says that we can have pleasure, joy, and enjoyment in our lives even with our reward system turned off due to depression and/or anhedonia. So I think my theory is something revolutionary since it clearly points out how that is false. I think the world needs to know more of science so that they know this instead of dismissing the suffering of a depressed and/or anhedonic person and telling him/her that he/she can still have pleasure, joy, and enjoyment while in nothing but their depressed and/or anhedonic states.
I do think believing your pain is meaningful can help to get through it though And also feel better getting through it. I think morality/philosophy can help but they also are not a (100%) cure of anhedonia.
Also you oversimplify 'reward system turned off'. Do you mean Major Depression? I think it is like I said some people feel better than others just like some have more money. So I guess probably the worst 1% of all people in the world are horridly miserable. But I think it is not a digital 'on' or 'off' 'rewards system'. And I do think various factors influence how near or far you are to the 1% most miserable.
Pain has no good meaning whatsoever. Even if it later on resulted in something good (you experiencing your pleasant feelings/emotions). The moment where you experienced nothing but pain and misery is nothing good. But it is only the moment later on where you feel good again that your life is good. So really, the pain and misery is all for nothing and only serves to take away the good meaning of your life.
As for the reward system being turned off, depression and anhedonia do this. They completely rid of your pleasant feelings/emotions during those given moments of depression and/or anhedonia. Only when the depression and/or anhedonia passes would your reward system turn back on again to give you your pleasant feelings/emotions back again.
pain is pain. i find meaning in pain though. makes me feel relief when it goes away! like the sun through the clouds.
do you mean Major Depression? I have Schizophrenia and have some anhedonia but I still do have some pleasure. For example I like to eat good food. So I have a lot of bad feeling but still some good feeling. I love a funny joke. I like a good discussion etc..
But like I said maybe less than 1% are so miserable that they only feel pain and never have their 'reward system' 'come back'.
I take antipsychotics and they specifically block my reward system. As I said the body is more complex than on or off reward system. But the vental tegemental area of the brain is big time involved in rewards. Dopamine activates the VTA. I take anti-psychotic and it blocks my rewards! Why do I do this? Because I could be in a mental hospital or I could be with my family and friends. So I take the pain to my rewards system in order to have no psychotic symptoms.
And you wonder why you were banned from dhammawheel...? * Rolls eyes *...
You may believe you have a scientific grasp on the concepts of Pleasure/Pain, but for all your understanding, you fail to grasp the Buddhist Angle.
I too, am no great fan of reading huge walls of text... And I will add that firstly, this site is about as far removed, by comparison, to dhammawheel as you could ever get. Some members there do not consider this website to be a serious site reflecting Buddhism at all, while the opinion of some here, is that members of dhammawheel are so far up themselves pseudo-intellectually, that they fail to see daylight.
If you want to argue technically, using suttas and teachings, while citing huge tracts and blocks of cut-and-pasted texts on Buddhist premises, that's the place to be.
If you want to have generally light-hearted banter, with the occasional deep-down-and-serious topic reflecting on Life, the Universe and Everything, then this forum is a good one for starters.
That was the objective of the founder, Brian.
To create a place where those embryonically interested in Buddhism, could come to take their first steps on a path which held interest for them.
I'm sure many here will be able to engage with you on the topic you are insistent on bringing to our table.
But just remember one thing:
If you are so set in your decision and opinion, that you will flog a dead horse and dispute what you hear, then you'll get nowhere, fast.
The whole point of debate is to be open to new suggestion, and to be fully prepared to alter your perception, to the point of even seeing things in a completely opposite light.
I suspect this was one of the reasons you were banned from dhammawheel.
You refusal to engage in the premise of a Buddhist mind-set.
You've got some extremely knowledgeable, erudite and experienced people on dhammawheel, for all their sombre and apparently humourless demeanour.
If they booted you off, my theory is that it's likely that it's because you wouldn't listen, and insisted on arguing the point into the ground.
... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Having trawled through the 4 pages on dhammawheel, I can see my theory is pretty much nailed...
Actually, I am the type of person to always keep an open mind. As a matter of fact, I have kept an open mind all along. I just simply stated my theory which was that the Buddhists were wrong. But that was just my theory. The fact is, I had an open mind all along.
But honestly, I don't see it any other way. It just makes no sense to me to say that we can have pleasure/enjoyment in our lives while in nothing but a depressed and/or anhedonic state in which our reward system is turned off. I have completely read the Buddhist explanation of pleasure/enjoyment and it all still makes no sense to me.
It makes no sense to me because everything is all still a matter of science. Pleasure and enjoyment would all have to still come down to being our rewarding experiences (our pleasant feelings/emotions) from our reward system.
So the version of pleasure and reward others say we can have in our lives that is not the scientific definition, that version is metaphorical. Metaphorical meanings are delusional meanings. If I said the Earth was actually flat, then that would be just as delusional if I said the Earth is metaphorically flat. This is because when we as human beings create the metaphorical version of "rewarding experience" in our lives with our reward system turned off due to depression and/or anhedonia, we are saying that we are actually having a rewarding experience when we are not.
If I said the Earth is flat, then that would be a false and delusional statement. If I said the Earth is metaphorically flat, then that would be a delusional statement, but in a different way. It would instead be delusional in the sense of giving a comparison to something else. For example, if I said I was made of metal, then that would be a false delusional statement. But if I then said I am a tough man--I am made of metal, then that would be a delusional statement giving a comparison to a tough man.
I will point out something else here. If you said the Earth is flat, then that would be you thinking (believing) the Earth is flat. So that would be false and delusional. But if you said that the Earth is metaphorically flat and that this meaning holds true for you, then this version says: "The Earth is flat because I say it is. I have created my own personal meaning for the Earth and since I said it's flat, then that makes it so." So that would be false.
If I were to go up to people and ask them if I can have an actual scientific form of sight in my life if I was blind, then these people would say "no." But if I then ask them if I can have an actual metaphorical version of sight in my life, then they would say "yes." So they would then say from there that I really can have an actual version of sight in my life.
But all that can exist in reality is what has been proven as scientific fact. In other words, the Earth cannot be a sphere and flat at the same time. In that same sense, my thoughts cannot be thoughts and also a form of sight at the same time. The actual scientific version of sight and the actual metaphorical version of sight share something in common here.
That is, they are both "actual forms of sight." But what is actual can only be what is reality. In other words, what is actual can only be what has been proven through science. Another example is that it is a proven scientific fact that I am an actual human being (a homo sapiens). But I also cannot be an actual unicorn or dolphin just because I think so. Therefore, you can see how metaphorical meanings are not realistic. They have no bearing in reality.
So for you to say that you are having an actual metaphorical (personally created) rewarding experience in your life with your reward system turned off, then that would be no different than saying that you are having an actual delusional version of a rewarding experience in your life. So the metaphorical (moral) version of good and bad is a deluded lie and so is the metaphorical version of reward and disreward.
I have no idea what you are talking about. The reason is that it is a wall of text and we are not checking in with each other to insure I am getting your ideas. This is a communication probelm.
Are you saying because your reward system is off the result is that you cannot practice Buddhism?
That could be right actually. The Jewel Ornament of Liberation says you need leisure and endowment to make progress.
Still your endowment with this life time might be relatively better than other beings such as those in war torn areas or hell beings or non-intelligent. And you might create good karma and have a healthier 'rewards system' next life time.
Could you say succinctly in a couple of sentences what you are disagreeing with in Buddhist teachings?
I'm not here to argue your initial point.
I frankly don't care to get into a debate you have no intention of being flexible in.
You say you have an open mind. Your entire post screams the total opposite.
You just can't see it any other way, because you're listening, but not hearing.
Drop this shit, and just listen, read and watch.
I concur with one comment made on dhammawheel by a member who contributed to your thread: You were a returning visitor, insistent on reviving, pushing and insisting on arguing this point.
A single point you consider Buddhists to be wrong on.
Forget about pushing your insistence on others and simply ask yourself:
Is this attitude conducive to my Buddhist practice?
Does it advance my understanding of Suffering, and the Transcendence of Suffering?
This was the Buddha's main focus: To understand Suffering (and its origin, in Clinging/Grasping) and how to transcend/let go.
How's that working for you?
First off, it is not that I am someone not paying attention or anything like that. The reason why my posts don't adhere to the Buddhist concept of pleasure/enjoyment and the reason why it seems as though I am not listening would be because of our different points of view. I view this universe solely from a materialistic (scientific) point of view. But you and other Buddhists view it from a different perspective.
It would be no different than me arguing with a religious person. No matter how many times I try to explain to them how God does not exist, the religious people would then just say in return that I am not listening, am arrogant, and force my own opinions on others without listening to what they have to say.
It's not a matter of me not listening. It is just that I am an atheist and they are religious people. We have different outlooks on life. So these religious people will not convince me any with their religious arguments just as how my atheistic arguments will not convince them any either. The things they say will make no sense to me and the things I say will make no sense to them either.
I would say I can identify with being misunderstood as a person with some degree of anhedonia. And specifically among Buddhists. I have heard Buddhists (online.. never in person) say that I choose to be suffering. Easy for them to say if they are having a success in their practice.
Oh....Look what I found:
Your words.
Your rebuttal of all, or any discussion in Buddhist context on the matter.
Your intransigence, stubbornness and closed-minded attitude to discussing this in Buddhist terms.
So since you disagree with a Buddhist understanding and concept , as you don't agree with it, it must be wrong.
Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish.
Sorry guys, truly. But I can see, from previous experience where this was going.
Just don't have the patience or time to put up with this kind of crap.
Member banned, discussion closed.
Aaaaand.... breathe.
