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Purification
DairyLama
Veteran Veteran
Is this an idea that you find useful or relevant to your practice?
1
Comments
Some of the teachers I follow advise against this sort of thing.
They explain it by the fact we are already "enlightened"
Trying to purify yourself is exactly the definition of craving, you think there is something wrong with who you are. You then go on this massive quest to better "yourself"
Yet we are already fully and completely perfect as an expression of life.
You are desiring to make yourself a better person to help you reach enlightenment. . . Not a good idea in my opinion. Not if waking up to who you truly are is the goal.
It's a good idea as far as humanity is concerned
but you can't love on purpose. It's a spontaneous thing.
I belive its crucial to follow the pricepts and be mindfull during the day, if you know you are doing bad things, like stealing, lying, killing etc. then it will also be problematic to be friend with yourself.
Buddha spoke about not self, but he also said we are our owners of our actions,
they will always follow us, so living a moral life and follow the pricepts is a gift, for your self and for others around you.
I dont think we are perfect, we need to practice alot before we get to the real deal,
there are still many layers of "self" that need to be thrown away.
As Ajahn Jaysaro said
buddhism is an education system with the idea that human beings have the potential to completely liberate themselves from all sufferings through a clear penetrative understanding of the way things are..
I guess if one really believes that then there is no point to any kind of spiritual practice?
Isn't thinking of oneself as already enlightened or completely perfect rather arrogant, even delusional?
Yes relevant.
The enlightened, nirvanic component does not have qualities but expresses itself through an impure or purified being. When the ego is transparent, clean or purified if you will, it shines brightly. This Buddha Nature, the unborn, Nirvana etc can also to an extent facilitate the cleansing or burning away of the false or delusinary selves.
So the purification can occur as a preparation (see eight fold path and other teachings for details) or we can increasingly resonate once a degree of realisation has arisen.
Might as well cultivate ...
I find it useful.
Evolution of life has happened in such a way as to give us self awareness. With this self awareness came the mistaken view that because we can be witness to nature we are somehow separate from it.
It doesn't help much that once a few generations passes the traveler forgets where they come from. So with these two mistakes we created the world of us and "them".
I think a necessary step towards a better understanding is to see how we are all connected and that nature is not just somewhere we live.
So, there are certain defilements or illusions to see through and though those curtains are easily raised, living in accordance with the truth can take a lot of practice with ingrained reactions still taking hold.
Just my view
I practice for the purification of six ability(organ? 六根) of six consciousness (六識). So I can see, hear, smell, taste, feel and think outer world correctly.
Its from wikki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijñāna
In Buddhism, the six sense bases (Pali: saḷāyatana; Skt.: ṣaḍāyatana) refer to the five physical sense organs (cf. receptive field) (belonging to the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body), the mind (referred to as the sixth sense base) and their associated objects (visual forms, sounds, odors, flavors, touch and mental objects). Based on the six sense bases, a number of mental factors arise including six "types" or "classes" of consciousness (viññāṇa-kāyā). More specifically, according to this analysis, the six types of consciousness are eye-consciousness (that is, consciousness based on the eye), ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness and mind-consciousness
Yes. I practice the Four Opponent Powers each and every day.
Vajrasattva is shining her light on me and helping me change my negative mental habits.
Depends what you think enlightenment is. My understanding is that we realise we are an expression of life/existence. Not a skin incapsulated ego who pushes life around.
Thinking you can achieve enlightenment with the very thing that keeps us from seeing it seems delusional.
Alan watts puts it beautifully, back in the day people heard that Buddha said to give up desire. So they went around stomping on desires, avoiding woman, shaving heads, eating no food, sleeping on wood.
They then approached the Buddha and said, the problem still is that we are desiring to give up desire?
Buddha said, at last you understand.
You can't give up desire through desiring. Why are you purifying oneself? Who is it that thinks there is something wrong?
It's a hallucination.
@SpinyNorman -- In one of the tellings of Gautama's enlightenment experience, it is said that after sitting day and night under the bo tree, he saw the morning star on a particular morning, stood up, took seven steps in each of the cardinal directions and then, raising his right hand to the heavens and his left pointing at the earth, said, "Above the heavens and below the earth, I alone am the world-honored one."
Let's face it -- anyone who says something like that is either the most egocentric son of a bitch who ever came down the pike or he was referring to something other than self-aggrandizement. Buddhists, of course, are inclined to credit the latter point of view, but not addressing the former conclusion as well strikes me as foolish.
Take a step back from spiritual endeavor and it is not difficult to understand why those who are not involved might be skeptical ... perhaps even snarky. "Navel-gazers" is one of the more benevolent terms that can be applied by outsiders to those who have made a commitment to spiritual practice.
Is spiritual life self-centered and capable of wild delusion. You bet. All the talk about clarifying the ego is just talk -- just delusion, just ego -- until the work is done. But it's OK. It's just something to work through. And it's hard work ... hard not to be swept up in religious smarm or self-important stuff. Arrogant. Even delusional. Hard-working Buddhists may think they have discovered a way to escape the delusional lash, but mostly that's not true: You just have to slog through the mud until you reach drier ground.
So go ahead and be deluded ... but keep and eye on it. Go ahead and be a self-aggrandizing poseur ... but keep and eye on it. Reach for the stars and fall on your ego-tripping ass ... again. I'm sorry, but I simply don't think there is an escape from all this because "all this" is the name of the game.
... to keep all-this-ing until there is no more all-this to all-this about. Just delusion ... no more delusion.
But that's just this ego-tripper's take.
Why are you here in the buddhist forum???
I think it would help to remember that before his awakening the guy was rotting alive. He was bound to proclaim a bit of crazy wisdom once he got some rice into him.
hmmm I might be in the wrong forum or I am just not understanding English here.
There is more than one brand of Buddhism. It's nothing to get divisive about.
As @genkaku mentions you can keep an eye on it. You can purify and change its nature and direction.
That would be for you, I am kinda Mahayanic on that one.
You do. Nothing wrong? Go save world. Start with self, Hinayana style.
I am having a culture shock here!! I guess its only me who think this is unusual. LOL I am in the really wrong place. So sorry guys!! what I find odd here is you all talk about respect for your own belief and for others but only respect I don't see here in this "buddhism" forum is the respect for the one and only buddha that we had in this Saha world.
Seagoon (finding Eccles in a coal cellar): What are you doing here?
Eccles: Everybody's gotta be somewhere.
(The Goons)
Exactly! I am so stupid. I knew I was slow but didn't realize how stupid I am till now.
gonna have a good laugh for a long long time about this.
How good is culture shocks! I had it the first time I arrived in South East Asia.
I would definitely respect the Buddha, but in my belief he is certainly not the one and only.
Nothing is better from putting others down by raising someone above humanity.
They did it with Jesus, they did it with Buddha, I'm sure many more.
They were just extra ordinary people who pointed out to us.
"Seek the kingdom of heaven within yourself"
But everybody else deified them and made them god rather than humans. Too bad they aren't around to tell people to stop damn worshipping them. They are pointing at something... Not themselves
Not really because the completely perfect part refers to "true self" or "buddha nature", which every being has, rather than the normal perception of what we think of as "myself". But if you think that "myself" already is perfect, enlightened, etc., then yea you are pretty much screwed! ha!
@KarikoPuppies
Genkaku is simply willing to ask why a cow marked "sacred", is considered to be sacred.
He often saves me from feeling tasked to do likewise.
To a devotee, devotion is often the entirety of their practice and questioning can be frowned upon as the potential cause of a loss of devotion.
To a meditator, each moment is just an unfolding question and that open questioning is the expression of their practice.
I think this forum is wide enough to safely hold both practices without either asking the other to justify why they are here.
I don't know. It seems to me like he's saying it foolish to not consider the Buddha to be a fool. However, if he was a fool he could not be a buddha to begin with! "Buddha" and "fool" are mutually exclusive by the very definition of the word to begin with!
It's what my practice is all about.....(well not so much the Nirvana part)
" The aim is to purify the personality of the Buddhist practitioner so that all moral and character defilements and defects (kleshas such as anger, ignorance and lust) are wiped away and Nirvana can be obtained."
Certainly we should never deify Buddha nor Jesus but that doesn't mean it's ok to disrespectful or make them liars. By setting limit on "buddha", we are setting limit on ourselves. Think of the universe and other possibilities unknown to us.That was what Buddha was trying to tell us. There is no limit but we limit ourselves. Buddha only wanted to make all sentient being equal to him, a buddha. That was why he was born in this world. But in the end, everyone is entitled to believe what they believe. If you think Buddha means extra smart wise person then buddha to you is just a very smart person. Everyone has his/her own buddha inside. I know I do.
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn56.11
And that's just it... Putting him on a pedestal puts him out of reach.
They both realised their essential emptiness and shared with others.
but there are also many other fully enlightened beings alive today.
We don't call them Buddhas because we've deified one that lived 2000 years ago.
We always look at historical figures as amazing beyond belief. But people living today...
I mean TNH is great but he is no Buddha!
Dalai Lama is good but he is a bit sexist, but Jesus! True son of god!
See what I mean? We easily criticise those incredible people who are alive today.
Our minds live to create imaginary heros. Beyond us mere mortals.
I bet the Buddha chased girls and had a secret fetish for sweet cakes :P
They left that sutta out.
This last page has been such a delightfully funny one.
I think @Genkaku was doing a bit of surmising, after all, he said that it was one of the translations of that part. I'll be referring to my favorite book by TNH, Old Path White Clouds because I'm pretty sure that part was in there somewhere.
This thread is so much fun!
Purity is only for those who are ignorant!
.....And Ignorance is for those who declare themselves Pure. ..
My approach feels more like exploration than purification. Though I also suspect these two processes are intimately connected. It's more difficult to see clearly through muddy water.
No, it's more a process of letting go. But you seem to think there is nothing to let go of?
A useful analogy might be that samsara is like muddy water. Of course once the mud suttles it is still there but so is the clearer purer water, that was also a lways present. Our agitation constantly stirs up the water instead of allowing the settling ...
Well why do you want to let go? Aren't you desiring to let go?
Or does the letting go happen by itself?
Many people don't see the fundamental difference.
If you see there is no "you", then letting go happens. You don't have to let go.
Who is holding onto what? See what I mean?
But nobody wants to see they don't exist.
I mean we want enlightenment, to be more loving, compassionate and at peace. Not realising we have to give up ourselves to get it. More like it gets you.
They also leave this out of the suttas.
Nobody would want it then hahah.
Zen masters have some interesting things to say about purity. LOL
~Sayings and Doings of Pai-chang, aka Hyakujo
@KarikoPuppies -- With respect, I suggest you look up the "buddhas" who are referred to in scripture as preceding Gautama. "The one and only" is plainly wrong by ritual and, presumably, doubly wrong by practice.
The reason I am here is partly to air out the sometimes irreverent/skeptical thoughts that any serious student might have and yet be too scared to enunciate. I know I was that way (everything's hunky-dory all of the time here in yum-yum Buddhist land!) and if I can save others the trouble, I'll do it every day of the week and twice on Sundays. It's important to respect not just what is respectable but also what balks and bucks and screams bloody murder as practice advances. To my way of thinking this practice is a whole-life practice, not some tiptoe-through-the-rarified-tulips exercise.
Is it possible to segue into a comforting skepticism? Sure. Just as it is possible to get sucked into a comforting credulity and adulation. Every (wo)man has to find the balance alone. But finding that balance requires respect for both sides of the coin although sometimes we emphasize one side and sometimes the other.
I will admit I lean towards the skeptical, not least because I can hear my own siren song of come-hither credulity. But I figure that people here are all adult enough not to take me or anyone else too seriously.
Actually there's quite a lot about this in the suttas. Basically you seem to be saying that we need to realise emptiness, and then letting go happens naturally? Sure, that sounds right. But how does thinking we're already enlightened help us to realise emptiness and awaken? I don't get it.
I'm familiar with the practice of fully accepting the present, but that seems quite different to thinking ( pretending? ) we're already enlightened. Actually I think fully accepting the present, like letting go, is more a result of insight than something we can consciously "do".
So is that the one to go for then? The one with "emptiness" in it?
OK, there are the four propositions:
It exists.
It does not exist.
It both exists and does not exist.
It neither exists nor does not exist.
What happens to the four propositions in a kiss or a sneeze?
Cool! Bling blang bum bang. Dunky-bunky. Is this an international forum?
An English gentleman would never kiss and sneeze at the same time.
Tried it. Trust me, it's a disaster.....
Pity the poor recipient!
Yeah realises the emptiness of things and you let go. Exactly.
Realising you are already what you are looking for/from. The seeker stops.
It's got nothing to do with thinking or pretending.
You see the experience you are having right now is it.
Seeking it is redundant. Sure the realisation has different levels. But once you see there is no seeker. And that's the key.
You are the Absolute in an embodied form. That is the pristine, untouched, primordial knower Consciousness.
You, consciousness, are already pure. Mind can be said to be impure.
Consciousness (which is inherently stainless) is entangled with minds impurity.
Consciousness observes the impurities of mind but itself remains untouched. And really, the notion that pure and impure really exists, is also untrue. It's all manufactured man made knowledge.
Consciousness is the knowing power, knowing function, the observer of the body's actions.
Stop living as the body and live as your true being which is the Untouched One.
Consciousness knows thoughts but is not thought; knows actions but is itself actionless; knows emptiness but is neither full nor empty; knows the body's feelings but are not these feelings.
Mind is activity. Consciousness is Not this activity but knows it. Is aware of it.
You are consciousness.
Stop living as though you were this body. That is the root of all problems.
This body is ONLY support for the real you embodied. Without the body there is nothing to sustain you, consciousness, embodied.
Shift your attention to the one who knows as being you.
You don't eat. You don't sleep. You don't piss. You don't shit.
The body performs those actionless actions. You observe them.
Once you feel that consciousness is the real you. There is no more doubt. Then forget that also. Because that knowledge is manufactured. You don't need to think, I am consciousness, I am consciousness, to be that.
That is just consciousness watching mind babbling.
Drop everything which can be observed and what remains is the unobservable. Which is you.
You can't observe it.
You can't even be it.
Drop even the idea of being and non being. Neither is applicable. There is nothing to be or not be.
It cannot even be thought of. If you think about it then it becomes fantasy.
Any thought true or untrue is also fantasy.
Every word I've just written here is ultimately speaking complete nonsense.
But they lead to what's real. The words are false, pure fantasy but they point to you.
Listen or don't listen it's up to you.
Find some nice, high quality printer paper, print out this post and wipe your ass with it if you wish.
Its your choice.
Umm, ah..OK. But I won't waste perfectly good printer paper and ink in that fashion.