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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Humanb said:
Exactly... We are our experiences!!
If you were born into my body, lived my life exactly, right up until this point. You would be writing this sentence right now because you would be me.
@ourself said:
There is no way to assign presence as an absolute fact beyond the subjective experience without conjecture.
There is not need for that. If there is nothing beyond experience, then presence is absolute. If there is something beyond, its "being" implies presence. Being and presence are inseparable. Presence is always absolute, whether there are things beyond the subjective experience, or not.
@ourself said:
Before there was any thing, there is the potential
That means that potential is present, nothing else. Speculations arise when we want to know what it is, without experiencing its presence.
I am not saying this just to show superiority of presence over potential, or whatever. It's not just an argument for the sake of discussion. It cuts through this very painful activity of seeking, an clinging to what is found. Lets take impermanence, the first mark of existence. We know that everything that we know is unstable (sometimes only through science). We know that even atoms will be destroyed someday. But the same knowledge tells us, it will not happen anytime soon. We know things which will exist longer then we will, and that's enough in most cases. This gives us the ground for clinging. What can prevent me from being attached to diamond when I know it will outlive me easily? Presence. This is where true anicca manifests. Spend enough time in its presence, and you will grow dispassionate about it. Stare at it, and it will fade like shadow on the wall. The experience of presence is very unstable, which creates suffering. By realizing that there is nothing beyond presence, one becomes dispassionate about it. Whatever you are looking for, whatever you find will be marked in the same way.
There is plenty of text advising detachment, dispassion, letting got, but we need a reason for it. This is why it is called realization. How can I strive after things, knowing that they are all mere presence always marked with suffering? I cannot, and it feels good, really good.
Striving creates stress, this is why there is this big emphasize on relaxation. But intentional relaxation is always based on striving. A vicious circle which drains energy.
But without striving I feel relaxed, without intentionally relaxing. All this because I realized something that was obvious form the start, that everything is always just presence. Even when I look at myself, it's just presence, nothing more.
Once more, I am not saying this to show that my realization is > than yours, or whoever. I'm just showing very obvious, based on the Buddhist doctrine, and consistent explanation of reality as we know it, which happens to transform practice into something naturally pleasant. I was never a fan of formal practice. Forcing oneself into position for X minutes/hours with hope for attainments. And even if you attains something, you need to figure out how to pick it up from the cushion, which is like trying to walk with a house of cards on your head.
I've been through few ideas about the nature of reality. Potential was one of them, I even have a logical explanation how it can manifest into being, written somewhere in my notes. But nothing was as fulfilling as presence, this simple realization that everything is always just presence.
Long post, but I though that it's enough of this ping-pong.
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited November 2015
The problem with saying that all is presence is it doesn't mean or change anything except maybe for you personally.
For myself it's just another loaded word. Another label tailored to fit where labels do not apply. Still more striving in my opinion.
I'm happy that it helped you but practice doesn't always have to be pleasant and extends well beyond the cushion.
It's sometimes enough to see past the nihilistic stage of realizing emptiness. There is no one word that is going to do it for everybody.
Potential implies striving. Potential implies that things aren't yet what they will (or should) be. It is a view of forward movement and may be useful in the sciences.
Presence only says that things are. And that places you more firmly in the moment, without worry about what will come next.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Potential implies striving. Potential implies that things aren't yet what they will (or should) be.
Should is just another loaded word and potential is just emptiness. Things change, no biggie. Potential only implies the possibility of change. No striving necessary.
Presence only says that things are. And that places you more firmly in the moment, without worry about what will come next.
Potential implies striving. Potential implies that things aren't yet what they will (or should) be. It is a view of forward movement and may be useful in the sciences.
Presence only says that things are. And that places you more firmly in the moment, without worry about what will come next.
Exactly.
@ourself said:
I'm happy that it helps you but practice doesn't always have to be pleasant and extends well beyond the cushion.
If it ain't pleasant it will become unbearable and impossible. The deeper you go, the more subtle and fragile your concentration is. It cannot continue through effort because effort becomes the main theme and break your concentration. Letting go of effort brings you back. The only way is to get "there" without effort, and for that you need to have a form of pleasant meditation which will pull you in. Realizing presence, create such a basis.
Of course you can swim in shallow waters all the time, not a problem. Or you can go in and out mindfully investigating how this effort comes into being and how it fades. That is also good. If you are lucky, even if you enter by effort, your meditation will mysteriously transform into effortless one (that also happens), but it will fade after awhile, leaving you with sentiment. "Who enters the Way without penetrating its principle, will return to the flesh and has to pay back the alms received by the faithful. "
Been there, did that. Nothing to brag about and nothing to be ashamed of. When you realize presence, you start your meditation and your are already there. Nothing to look for, nothing to gain.
Quite good examples can be found in early Chan, but Dzogchen is all about it.
It's not just me, and it's not just about philosophizing. As a philosophy, it's quite weak, because it does not give any explanation about arising phenomena. But it's not about finding good methods for conceptualization. That's what science is for.
We all are. Worrying is a consequence of intention, which is the driving force of our individual being (karma). Carefree people don't practice.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited November 2015
@Barah said:
Entire branch of Tibetan Buddhism is build on top of it. It's not just me.
Which entire branch? Could you elaborate and give a source?
I'm not sure why you would agree that potential implies striving or things being somehow not as they "should" be. This is an assertion that makes no sense at all and I'm surprised @0student0 could assert it.
Anyways, the only reason I brought up potential is because no matter how I try to explain it, there are always some here that do not see it the same way I do.
Sound familiar?
When you say "presence" do you really mean awareness?
If it ain't pleasant it will become unbearable and impossible. The deeper you go, the more subtle and fragile your concentration is. It cannot continue through effort because effort becomes the main theme and break your concentration. Letting go of effort brings you back. The only way is to get "there" without effort, and for that you need to have a form of pleasant meditation which will pull you in. Realizing presence, create such a basis. Of course you can swim in shallow waters all the time, not a problem. Or you can go in and out mindfully investigating how this effort comes into being and how it fades. That is also good. If you are lucky, even if you enter by effort, your meditation will mysteriously transform into effortless one (that also happens), but it will fade after awhile, leaving you with sentiment.
"Who enters the Way without penetrating its principle, will return to the flesh and has to pay back the alms received by the faithful. "
Been there, did that. Nothing to brag about and nothing to be ashamed of. When you realize presence, you start your meditation and your are already there. Nothing to look for, nothing to gain.
Quite good examples can be found in early Chan, but Dzogchen is all about it.
Yes but that is not a counter-point to my point. That is your interpretation of what you have learned and experienced.
All that did was reinforce what I said.
We all are. Worrying is a consequence of intention, which is the driving force of our individual being (karma). Carefree people don't practice.
@ourself said:
I'm not sure why you would agree that potential implies striving
Can you experience potential directly, not just its expressions? If not, then it will remain as a speculation for which you will strive to find justification. If there is more than what is apparent, how can you give up searching for it?
@ourself said:
When you say "presence" do you really mean awareness?
Basically yes, as I don't know how those two can be separated. The state of pure and total presence is the clear light, the pure fact of awareness, non-conceptual ever-fresh awareness;
@ourself said:
Which entire branch? Could you elaborate and give a source?
Dzogchen. Practically everything by Longchenpa talks about presence. All experiences and life forms cannot be proven to exist independently of their being a presence before your mind, just like a lucid dream. - The Jewel Ship
Found today: Pure presence has no breadth or depth, no high or low,
And this boundless indeterminacy precludes any point of reference;
Pure presence has no agenda, nothing to do and nowhere to go,
And the absence of linear time and antidote precludes goal-fixation.
Any contrived point of reference results in captivity,
So setting no goals whatsoever, relax into the totality! -Precious Treasury of the Dharmadhatu
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
So pure presence would be Rigpa then if I'm seeing it right.
In Dzogchen, a fundamental point of practice is to distinguish rigpa from sems (citta, (grasping) mind).[8] According to the 14th Dalai Lama, "sems is the mind which is temporarily obscured and distorted by thoughts based upon the dualistic perceptions of subject and object."[9] Rigpa is pure awareness free from such distortions.[9] Cittata, the nature of mind, is the inseparable unity of awareness and emptiness, or clarity and emptiness, which is the basis for all the ordinary perceptions, thoughts and emotions of the ordinary mind.[web 1]
@ourself said:
The only way to be flawless is to be aimless.
Not everybody is ready for that and it just doesn't work that way for everybody.
Presence works in the same way for everybody, because there is nothing but presence. Aimlessness is a consequence, not an activity that must be exercised, so no special skill is needed.
I cannot understand how one can, or cannot be ready for it. It's nothing more than admitting that there is nothing but presence. Do you suggest that one must believe that there is something mysterious behind, until he is ready to drop that assumption? Do you know anything that is not present? Do you believe that there is such a thing?
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Barah said:
I cannot understand how one can, or cannot be ready for it. It's nothing more than admitting that there is nothing but presence. Do you suggest that one must believe that there is something mysterious behind, until he is ready to drop that assumption? Do you know anything that is not present? Do you believe that there is such a thing?
You don't see how some need the raft before they abandon the raft?
Just admitting there is presence is not enough to keep us grounded in the present moment or at least not for everybody.
I don't know what you mean by "something mysterious behind" or "not present" but hold no beliefs on the matter.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
As for witnessing potential, have you never noticed things changing? In light of causation, there must be potential for a thing to manifest before it will manifest.
Potential is not a magical word and neither is presence. My view needs no justification neither from myself nor anyone else. All it has to do is stand up to reason which is all I've been asking you to do.
If presence means awareness, then it means awareness. Good.
They are both words used to express the way we perceive emptiness at work.
Comments
I guess if it works for you. I find it a bit vague.
There is no way to assign presence as an absolute fact beyond the subjective experience without conjecture.
Before there was any thing, there is the potential for everything and even that is just logic without confirmation.
Non-imperial intuition.
Or another finger pointing to the moon.
That is my understanding too.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-happens-to-consciousness-when-we-die/
There is not need for that. If there is nothing beyond experience, then presence is absolute. If there is something beyond, its "being" implies presence. Being and presence are inseparable. Presence is always absolute, whether there are things beyond the subjective experience, or not.
That means that potential is present, nothing else. Speculations arise when we want to know what it is, without experiencing its presence.
I am not saying this just to show superiority of presence over potential, or whatever. It's not just an argument for the sake of discussion. It cuts through this very painful activity of seeking, an clinging to what is found. Lets take impermanence, the first mark of existence. We know that everything that we know is unstable (sometimes only through science). We know that even atoms will be destroyed someday. But the same knowledge tells us, it will not happen anytime soon. We know things which will exist longer then we will, and that's enough in most cases. This gives us the ground for clinging. What can prevent me from being attached to diamond when I know it will outlive me easily? Presence. This is where true anicca manifests. Spend enough time in its presence, and you will grow dispassionate about it. Stare at it, and it will fade like shadow on the wall. The experience of presence is very unstable, which creates suffering. By realizing that there is nothing beyond presence, one becomes dispassionate about it. Whatever you are looking for, whatever you find will be marked in the same way.
There is plenty of text advising detachment, dispassion, letting got, but we need a reason for it. This is why it is called realization. How can I strive after things, knowing that they are all mere presence always marked with suffering? I cannot, and it feels good, really good.
Striving creates stress, this is why there is this big emphasize on relaxation. But intentional relaxation is always based on striving. A vicious circle which drains energy.
But without striving I feel relaxed, without intentionally relaxing. All this because I realized something that was obvious form the start, that everything is always just presence. Even when I look at myself, it's just presence, nothing more.
Once more, I am not saying this to show that my realization is > than yours, or whoever. I'm just showing very obvious, based on the Buddhist doctrine, and consistent explanation of reality as we know it, which happens to transform practice into something naturally pleasant. I was never a fan of formal practice. Forcing oneself into position for X minutes/hours with hope for attainments. And even if you attains something, you need to figure out how to pick it up from the cushion, which is like trying to walk with a house of cards on your head.
I've been through few ideas about the nature of reality. Potential was one of them, I even have a logical explanation how it can manifest into being, written somewhere in my notes. But nothing was as fulfilling as presence, this simple realization that everything is always just presence.
Long post, but I though that it's enough of this ping-pong.
The problem with saying that all is presence is it doesn't mean or change anything except maybe for you personally.
For myself it's just another loaded word. Another label tailored to fit where labels do not apply. Still more striving in my opinion.
I'm happy that it helped you but practice doesn't always have to be pleasant and extends well beyond the cushion.
It's sometimes enough to see past the nihilistic stage of realizing emptiness. There is no one word that is going to do it for everybody.
@ourself
Potential implies striving. Potential implies that things aren't yet what they will (or should) be. It is a view of forward movement and may be useful in the sciences.
Presence only says that things are. And that places you more firmly in the moment, without worry about what will come next.
Should is just another loaded word and potential is just emptiness. Things change, no biggie. Potential only implies the possibility of change. No striving necessary.
Who's worried?
Entire branch of Tibetan Buddhism is build on top of it. It's not just me.
Exactly.
If it ain't pleasant it will become unbearable and impossible. The deeper you go, the more subtle and fragile your concentration is. It cannot continue through effort because effort becomes the main theme and break your concentration. Letting go of effort brings you back. The only way is to get "there" without effort, and for that you need to have a form of pleasant meditation which will pull you in. Realizing presence, create such a basis.
Of course you can swim in shallow waters all the time, not a problem. Or you can go in and out mindfully investigating how this effort comes into being and how it fades. That is also good. If you are lucky, even if you enter by effort, your meditation will mysteriously transform into effortless one (that also happens), but it will fade after awhile, leaving you with sentiment.
"Who enters the Way without penetrating its principle, will return to the flesh and has to pay back the alms received by the faithful. "
Been there, did that. Nothing to brag about and nothing to be ashamed of. When you realize presence, you start your meditation and your are already there. Nothing to look for, nothing to gain.
Quite good examples can be found in early Chan, but Dzogchen is all about it.
It's not just me, and it's not just about philosophizing. As a philosophy, it's quite weak, because it does not give any explanation about arising phenomena. But it's not about finding good methods for conceptualization. That's what science is for.
We all are. Worrying is a consequence of intention, which is the driving force of our individual being (karma). Carefree people don't practice.
Which entire branch? Could you elaborate and give a source?
I'm not sure why you would agree that potential implies striving or things being somehow not as they "should" be. This is an assertion that makes no sense at all and I'm surprised @0student0 could assert it.
Anyways, the only reason I brought up potential is because no matter how I try to explain it, there are always some here that do not see it the same way I do.
Sound familiar?
When you say "presence" do you really mean awareness?
Yes but that is not a counter-point to my point. That is your interpretation of what you have learned and experienced.
All that did was reinforce what I said.
That wasn't the basis of the question.
Can you experience potential directly, not just its expressions? If not, then it will remain as a speculation for which you will strive to find justification. If there is more than what is apparent, how can you give up searching for it?
Basically yes, as I don't know how those two can be separated.
The state of pure and total presence is the clear light, the pure fact of awareness, non-conceptual ever-fresh awareness;
Dzogchen. Practically everything by Longchenpa talks about presence.
All experiences and life forms cannot be proven to exist independently of their being a presence before your mind, just like a lucid dream. - The Jewel Ship
Found today:
Pure presence has no breadth or depth, no high or low,
And this boundless indeterminacy precludes any point of reference;
Pure presence has no agenda, nothing to do and nowhere to go,
And the absence of linear time and antidote precludes goal-fixation.
Any contrived point of reference results in captivity,
So setting no goals whatsoever, relax into the totality! -Precious Treasury of the Dharmadhatu
So pure presence would be Rigpa then if I'm seeing it right.
The only way to be flawless is to be aimless.
Not everybody is ready for that and it just doesn't work that way for everybody.
You are fairly new here but I hope you know I mean no harm.
Whatever strengthens our sense of compassion is our greatest dharma in my view.
Presence works in the same way for everybody, because there is nothing but presence. Aimlessness is a consequence, not an activity that must be exercised, so no special skill is needed.
I cannot understand how one can, or cannot be ready for it. It's nothing more than admitting that there is nothing but presence. Do you suggest that one must believe that there is something mysterious behind, until he is ready to drop that assumption? Do you know anything that is not present? Do you believe that there is such a thing?
You don't see how some need the raft before they abandon the raft?
Just admitting there is presence is not enough to keep us grounded in the present moment or at least not for everybody.
I don't know what you mean by "something mysterious behind" or "not present" but hold no beliefs on the matter.
As for witnessing potential, have you never noticed things changing? In light of causation, there must be potential for a thing to manifest before it will manifest.
Potential is not a magical word and neither is presence. My view needs no justification neither from myself nor anyone else. All it has to do is stand up to reason which is all I've been asking you to do.
If presence means awareness, then it means awareness. Good.
They are both words used to express the way we perceive emptiness at work.