There is no path to enlightenment! That's good news!
Earthninja
WandererWest Australia Veteran
Namaste !
This is one of my favourite videos by Alan Watts. It's about 10 minutes and this was a lecture where he did not hold back. 
He goes into why all methods to obtain enlightenment are just a way to continue the egos apparent existence.
I really feel this is incredibly helpful for anyone who is interested in realising who they are not.
Another example is Adyashanti. This guy meditated everyday for 2-4 hours in his home built zendo. Under a guidance of a teacher.
He was so driven to understand what enlightenment was.
After about 5-6 years of this, I can remember exact amount.
He was sitting in his Zendo and thinking, "today is the day!" After meditating for awhile he hit a walk. A complete surrender spiritually, psychologically and emotionally. He realised he had failed. He couldn't do it any longer. All those years of perfect mudras, mind stilling and hours of meditation didn't help.
At THAT moment, of realising he couldn't do it. His first awakening.
The seeker had ended. Although he meditated still, but not for any purpose.
I really feel this is what all the scriptures are about, realising "we" will never get enlightenment. Because "we" don't exist.
An imaginary character can never see it is imaginary. An imaginary character doing "spiritual practice" to see it is imaginary still won't work!
The realisation doesn't come from the "person"
Egos can still have awakenings, but it is seen in that moment that you don't exist. As in personal volition. It's all spontaneous.
I think why very few people awake fully is because you have to let go of yourself fully.
The life you thought was "yours" is no longer you. You become nothing. Life takes over. And this hurts.
Some people describe it as a personal Armageddon.
Ofcourse the scriptures leave all this out, nobody would touch this. We want the bliss of what we think enlightenment is. Not realising you have to dissipate as the idea we are for this to happen.
I've had some glimpses into this so far, and when attention comes around and looks at "I" and sees nothing. Then it dawns in the brain that there actually is no separate "you".
It is scary as hell, you can sense the impending doom. Like your life is being ripped away from you.
But after a while it fades, and everything is still as much as it was. Just you have a different perspective. Being nothing and everything.
Not everybody is the same with this. Just an idea to play with. I found this helpful when I realised "I" could never attain enlightenment. "I" was what is in the way. 
Comments
To paraphrase one of the Lojong mind training insctructions - abandon all hope of fruition.
"You can not catch hold of it-nor can you get rid of it
In not being able to get it-you get it!
When you speak it's silent-When you're silent it speaks!"
Zen Poem
I guess in my old age, I tend to prefer the shorter versions of things.
I recently had a few moments like this too. But "I" am not willing to let go yet
Good for you, @Kale4Dayz - I think this letting go and thinking you aren't a person, and you aren't what you think you are is much ado about nothing...I find your basic Buddhism guidelines and sentiments more than enough for my purposes in finding 'meaning' in my life.
You clearly haven't read them if you think that.
There is no path to enlightenment, only an awakening to the truth.
I was referring to the person having the experience of a personal Armageddon. The feeling your life is being ripped away.
All your beliefs, hopes, dreams...
I haven't heard any sutras that describe this.
They refer to Anatta but I don't remember any that describe what it feels like.
I think Buddhist practice involves a gradual opening out.
There are a couple passages in Ajahn Chah's A Still Forest Pool that I'm reminded of: "Outward, scriptural study is not important. Of course, the Dharma books are correct, but they are not right. They cannot give you right understanding. To see the word hatred in print is not the same as experiencing anger, just as hearing a person's name is different from meeting him. Only experiencing for yourself can give you true faith."
"Of course, the systematic outline of the process in the texts is accurate, but the experience is beyond textual study. Study does not tell you that this is the experiencing of ignorance arising, this is how volition feels, this is a particular kind of consciousness, this is the feeling of the different elements of body and mind. When you let go of a tree limb and fall to the ground, you do not go into detail about how many feet and inches you fell; you just hit the ground and experience the pain. No book can describe that."
Its all about craving, to observe it, and finally you can let go when you see there is nothing to grasp after in this world, even buddhas teachings you have to let go of.
But to reach this "level" it takes time and effort, dont you think?
@SpinyNorman it doesn't seem to always go with what practice you follow. If we are referring to the same thing.
For sure, description only goes so far. I really like that book.
one if my favourites. 
I feel blessed in a way. 
It seems though even teachers hesitate to say that seeing you don't exist begins a process of everything you thought you were being torn away.
Mooji calls it being burnt in the fire of gods grace.
Zen describes it as the great death. The die before we die.
Adyashanti said he "knew he was going to literally die" but he didn't.
So done people do hint that this happens. I few people I talk to have described it to me so this helps because it makes it ok. Just because it's not bliss doesn't make it wrong.
Or it is seen the the person who craves doesn't exist. Letting go just happens at that point! Nobody to let go of anything. !
Not at all. Effort may happen or not. I don't seem to effort anymore. It just happens.
You don't exist! Time and effort are mental creations. What we are is here now.
I used to think enlightenment was super hard and only the a lucky few stoic cave living monks get it.
Now I see, even the concept of enlightenment doesn't matter if we don't exist.
This doesn't need time or effort. Who says it takes time or effort?
This reminds me of when I was studying philosphy at university, and
Descartes discussed this subject, do we exist?
His philosophy was built on the idea of radical doubt, in which nothing that is perceived or sensed is necessarily true. The only thing that remains true that there is a mind or consciousness doing the doubting and believing its perceptions, hence the famous formulation, ‘I think therefore I am’, or in Latin, the cogito—‘Cogito ergo sum’
Descartes also proposed that the mind and body were two separate and distinct entities, but even the body was not so certain a thing as the mind, because, like everything else in the world, the body could only be sensed because there was a mind to sense it.
So for me I feel fully alive, its impermanent yes, but anyway I exist right now
I've heard that this was a false view, because you ARE before you think.
we are prior to learnt words and images.
Of course you are alive, what I am referring to is that sense that this body/mind is "me" or "mine" that owner doesn't exist.
We mistakenly think we are the driver of our lives.
We believe we are separate from our environment. That "I" make choices but my bones grow themselves.
That entity doesn't exist. It's only a thought.
Choices are made with no one making them. Thoughts happen with no one thinking them.
It's incredible beyond words.
I think therefore a thinking process occurs?
I am asleep therefore I do not exist?
Anatta is the Buddhas realization of not-self
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/05/psychological-self-vs-no-self/
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/noself.html
If 'we' want to experience Anatta ...
http://liberationunleashed.com
If there is not self, there is also a self...
which one is true?
Not self, Its a paradox because Buddha said:
You are the owner of your actions.
But there is no owner anyway or?
And enlightenment, no one know what it is, so try to become "enlightened" its not the right way, this will only lead us into missery, becoming is suffering, as they say.
so maybe you are enlightened already @Earthninja... with no effort what so ever,
only observing the present moment?
From the link that @lobster posted:
"In my personal experience, growth in insight has in no way inhibited or stopped self-development, rather it has made the process more fun and easier to understand. At the core of this dimensional model is an assumption that is somewhat different than Engler’s: seeing through the illusion of self does not make the self disappear. The self remains, it continues on in the lived experience, but it is no longer the center of experience anymore. It is put in its proper perspective, as a simple, natural process of the mind, like any other. The sense that this organizing process is a real permanent “me” diminishes with insight. Even with great insight the natural process of growth and change, of what we would call “self development” continues to unfold, but the self is no longer believed to be “real”, it is simply an experience like any other.
So, while on the surface it can seem like we in the enlightenment traditions are pretty mixed up about the self, the opposite is actually true: we are clear about who we are. That does not stop us from growing, having fun and being human. It simply gives us greater awareness of the process."
So we have two dimmentions?
1)The observer: what we are training in meditation/mindfullness all day long is the observing ability, being awake to what happens in the present moment...
2) We are then observing our cravings, and the ego that want controll of our world.
But there is still an owner, the observer....
From the other link that @lobster posted:
Thanissaro Bhikku explains,
"In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible."
There is no separate observer either. You can not separate observer/subject. They are one experience that is seamless
This is what truly scares many people. The ego is ok with being universal awareness of objects. But when even that gets examined and seen there is no separation. $&@$ gets real haha.
It's a question about self vs non self. It's that you, ego, controller, the one who wants enlightenment. The one who disagrees or agrees. The one who likes this, doesn't like that. The one who was born.
THAT is an illusion. What we normally call me. Doesn't exist. Its only the body/mind.
There is no one who owns the body or controls it.
I just chalk up this mysterious talk of no self and all the rest of the verbiage entourage, as just talk magic - those who wow the audience with it will have control over and power over the mystified audience who are all going like wow man. It's just trippin to me; there's no place for it - I do tend to go with what @robot just said/quoted.
That's cool
I'm just sharing what I've found out, that has completely changed how I perceive the world. It's nothing new, or mystical but never the less incredible.
I'm definitely not asking anyone to believe me.
But there might be some who this sparks something to look into.
I never understood this at all when I first read about it, I guess I was fortunate somehow that interest was just towards this.
It made perfect sense to me, how some entity in this body have only partial control of the limbs but not the organs?
How could we only control part of our thoughts?
Why can't we stop thinking by choice?
Then I realised it's obvious, there is no controller. There is no "me" living life.
But even this was only intellectual, I still felt like a separate me who has personal choice. I choose to meditate etc. I am here and you are over there.
Somehow in various degrees attention looks at who is actually living life? Where exactly is this "me" what is it?
Thoughts became impersonal phenomena. And the "'me" is only ever found in thoughts.
Then it's almost like your whole body SEES there is no you. And the waves of fear hit you like a ton of bricks.
The heart races, thoughts/mind reeling.,
But then there is just this seamless experiencing. The personal thoughts are just seen as nothing, the person you thought you were was just a thought, the body continues to do it's thing.
I was having conversations and I had no idea where the words were coming from.
There was no more self or other, just these characters playing out. I couldn't find a reference point for "me" in fact I couldn't find me anymore.
It is seen that everything is in this open vastness. The character chris is being dreamt.
The dreamer is completely unknown. You feel you are it. But don't know what it is because the mind can't touch this.
You know it is that. Everything is connected. No separation anywhere.
You can see why enlightenment is ridiculous. There is no more you. You never were. Only life.
And it's funny because this is it! You don't have to do anything or go anywhere to get it. Because it is here anyway.
Just some crazy rambling, I've definitely not permanently shifted into that yet. But any attempt to "get it" seems ludicrous now. There is no you to get anything!
Thanks for reading and sharing guys.
@Earthninja says, "Thoughts became impersonal phenomena. And the "'me" is only ever found in thoughts.
Then it's almost like your whole body SEES there is no you. And the waves of fear hit you like a ton of bricks.
The heart races, thoughts/mind reeling.,"
~~
Yeah. When I was having a conversation on a non-duality forum probably over a year ago, I had one of those falling into the void terror strike, and it was the most frightening thing for me ... once I came out of it after a few moments, that was it. And strangely enough, another conversant had himself the very same experience a day or two later. So, talking about that kind of stuff can obviously induce that sort of so-called experience but when it's over, it's over (at least for the two of us). I don't think it was a bad thing to experience - once it was all over - but nobody in their right mind would wanna live that way, heheh.
That experience brings to mind the scene in the movie Coneheads when they were on Romulak at the narfling of the garthok (giggle) and they all started 'vibrating' when the three moons aligned - except for Connie Conehead - she just looked around like wha the bleep is happening here, hahaha.
Anyway Chris, if it has become a deep and meaningful thing to you, who am I to say anything against it, and you've been a real sport to hear what others like me have to say in criticism of it. You're okay.
@silver for sure, I know that I don't know much at all. This is all very new to me and I'm hardly going to try and preach
I don't talk to my wife about this stuff anymore.
Likewise thanks for reading what I had to say and I value everybodies input!
I know I've got more to see in this beautiful game called life.
I talk to a "shifted" guy who was a seeker for many many years. One night he just merged completely into that...
there's a really incredible awe about not knowing.
Anyways he says "There is no more doubt, and nowhere for it to arise"
There is still confusion and doubt here bit atleast I know what I'm not.
What I know is much. What I Know is nothing. Such a comfort. Nonetheless there is a journey no doubt. Its destination uncertain.
Could one venture to ask why not?
(I'm curious as to whether it is similar to the reasons I don't discuss Buddhism with my H any more......)
@federica just doesn't interest her much
she has very little spiritual orientation. She's happy with her life and isn't inclined to look deeper. 
That's cool with me
If I talk Buddhism to her, she talks accounting to me. It's a stale mate haha.
Is that the same with you? I guess some people are "wired" to look deeper but others don't care for it. It's fair enough.
Yeah, pretty much. I try to let how I live, do my talking for me....
One could say ultimately there is no path. However, to deny a conventional need for it, I think that's a mistake!
I shall be one with ice-cream!
Descartes was only partially right in saying ‘I think therefore I am’. Or maybe he is completely correct that "I" is just a thought or perception.
A more accurate saying would be ‘I think therefore I think that I am’.
Comment by Thanissaro Bhikku: The perception, "I am the thinker" lies at the root of these classifications in that it reads into the immediate present a set of distinctions — I/not-I; being/not-being; thinker/thought; identity/non-identity — that then can proliferate into mental and physical conflict. The conceit inherent in this perception thus forms a fetter on the mind. To become unbound, one must learn to examine these distinctions — which we all take for granted — to see that they are simply assumptions that are not inherent in experience, and that we would be better off to be able to drop them.
If that's what you feel, then great.
I've felt that before and maybe I will again.
The thing is the "ultimately" you describe is not far away.
Ultimately is what's right here, right now. So why does one need a path? We think we do and maybe for some it's just what happens.
Some people just seem to snap out of the dream, no path or spiritual background necessary.
Name one. I don't think it happens in any way other than a passing realization.
There is the end of suffering and there is a path to the end of suffering. That's the truth.
Well an older famous example was a Chinese guy, 6th patriarch? Not sure. He listened to one line of a sutra and woke up.
Ekhart Tolle had no spiritual background and one morning woke up in oneness.
One of the teachers I follow Mooji, had his first awakening at 30 while listening to a Christian prayer. No spiritual background.
I talk to a young guy on face book from Britain, he's like 27. He woke up quickly.
It seems some people have tendencies to wake up, this often leads them onto a spiritual path to understand it. But I don't feel a path is necessary.
I've never heard of a path that leads all to enlightenment.
Because, even though Ultimately is what's right here, one still clings to things anyway, and thus still suffers. They still want to keep their body, which is impossible.... They still want to avoid unpleasant things. They still want to get and keep pleasant things, etc, etc. Even though both of those are impossible.
If you no longer cling to anything at all, then yea I would say you no longer need a path.
But how many people here are completely free of clinging to things? Not very many!
"The path" is to put an end to clinging, not to find some special thing out there somewhere. There is no special thing out there.
Like the 6th zen patriarch said "Non-abiding is the basis" of your true nature. But, if you are still abiding, then you haven't seen it fully yet. You can think you have. You can cleverly talk yourself into thinking that you have, but if you are still "abiding in stuff", this is proof positive that you haven't. One who fully sees the truth of reality automatically stops abiding in things. Non-abiding is an inevitable consequence of fully seeing the truth.
"Cleverly talking yourself into thinking that you have seen it" is what is called in zen "emptiness sickness". Because it's definitely not enlightenment! Why? Because even after you cleverly talk yourself into it, there is still abiding taking place, there is still wanting. There is still "I, my, me". There is said to be no cure for emptiness sickness. Because no matter what you say, the person will always cleverly dismiss it. People with emptiness sickness tend to be extraordinarily clever. To their own detriment! Alan Watts was an extraordinarily clever guy. Not necessarily a bad thing, unless you use it to plunge yourself into emptiness sickness.
Reminds me of this:
Clever people can easily convince themselves that they aren't making distinctions, when they are in fact making a lot of them! But, their cleverness blinds them to this fact. It's quite unfortunate because they still suffer and they don't even know it.
Oh? I will have to be ashamed for you ...
You are not at the level of a Pratyekabuddha ... just so you know ...
Not plan!
Maybe you feel you are listening?
@seeker242 has described your current condition very skilfully, whether you hear it is presently doubtful ... ah well ... good luck nonetheless. Perhaps you best be allowed time to be clever ... (one of my skilfull hobbies)
@seeker242 but do you see that if you see there actually is nobody living life, clinging automatically starts to drop off?
You don't have to try to stop clinging to reach the goal.
You can't stop clinging by choice or force. Like you said.
Many Buddhists have tried giving up desire/aversion by any trick they can come up with. But they are desiring to give up desire.
I'm not saying do nothing. Do whatever feels like the right thing to do but still be aware that there is no sure fire path to enlightenment.
Because we are the thing that prevents it from being seen.
Alan Watts isn't the first person who has said there is no path, no way. He just puts it skilfully because he loves playing with words.
I'm just offering to share with others what I have found to be incredible, some ideas to play with and maybe a new angle to consider. There may be many here who already know what Alan Watts is referring to.
Now your just being judgemental, if you SEE there is no you living life. There's no room for doubt. Others can say it's XYZ like they can know what someone had experienced. Maybe because it doesn't line in with their beliefs. Judge me all you want but your in for a shock or maybe a laugh when you see it
It seems, earthninja, that in declaring you have no 'i', you have established you have a very big 'I'.
[All the Zen folks have and will give you all the Zen stuff on that.]
Perhaps, when you get out of your bubble, when another's suffering becomes your suffering, when another's joy is your joy, you will begin to understand.
As long as you have cognition there will always be an 'I'. It is the nature of our sentience. We are unique, each one of us, as is each snowflake from each other snowflake. And we exist interdependent with everyone and everything else. The ocean is composed of countless billions of unique drops of water merging together. Each drop is significant yet no one drop is, of it's own, significant.
You have the potential change the world. But, only if and when you can get out of that self-imposed bubble.
Also, don't worry, earthninja, none of us, self included, is perfect. We are all working at getting or trying to get better at this life and living thing (and our Buddhism). That, in part, is what makes it so interesting.
Peace to all
Of course, a moment of clarity does not necessarily stop the I. I still feel separate most of time 99.9%. Still conditioned reactions etc
Just because im putting this across does not mean I'm "free"
Everyone has an I, but it can be seen as an illusion. My big I probably comes from my mother haha.
This is beautifully written, I hope so.
We are all in this self imposed bubble, scared of it bursting.
I really like your posts, you have a great way with words. Of course we are not all perfect, but perfect is just an idea. Everybody is a beautiful expression of their own. Just we miss seeing the beauty and that's the sad part.
People try so hard so they can work towards this ideal"maybe in the next life" but missing what's going on now.
Thank you
Not the Buddhists I know...why do you keep coming up with straw-man arguments?
OK, so you've heard of a few people who claim to have had an epiphany spontaneously, and you keep going on about it, and so.....? I really don't know how to respond.
You don't have to mate, just throwing some ideas around. I could be completely wrong but that's just what's going on right now.
The straw man arguments are not referring to all/most people. Just the opposite side of the coin people.
Look I'm not saying this is how it is, but just a possibility to consider ? The last time I entered a discussion like this it got met with the same understandable resistance.
Hey what do I know
Smile
It does! Like the Heart Sutra says:
My point was just that if clinging has not dropped off yet, that means you haven't fully seen it yet. And that it's easy to talk yourself into it if you're clever. I know, I personally did that and was stuck in emptiness myself! Because I'm very clever.
But if you really want to take "nobody living life" deeply, it would be necessary to consider the fact that "nobody living life" is still a deluded idea! The reason why is because if there really is nobody living life, then there would be no reason to say there is nobody living life to begin with. Who is this nobody that is not living life? Ha!
"Nobody living life" is still a self referencing idea. The idea that there is nobody is still dualistic because you can't have a notion of nobody without first having a notion of somebody. Nobody and somebody have to go together just like up and down have to go together.
Remind me of these excerpts from the Hsin Hsin Ming by Seng-T'san:
I know you were talking to lobster below but I felt like commenting on it.
I understand that.
New angles are good! I'm just doing the same! And I'm perhaps suggesting that letting go of notions of "nobody" is just as necessary as letting go of notions of "somebody". Because essentially, like the 3rd patriarch says, they are two sides of the same samsaric coin. They are both extreme views!
I'm not trying to say you're wrong to play with ideas. I like playing with ideas too. I'm just offering some additional ones to play with!
I'm still not sure what possibility you're actually proposing though. Are you suggesting that spiritual awakening is a purely random occurrence which is nothing to do with whether people do spiritual practice? Are you suggesting we all stop practising and just eat ice-cream....
@seeker242 I like what you wrote above. Nice one.
We all feel like we are somebody yes? This is how we feel and conventionally live our lives.
If it seen that this is illusory , that this somebody doesn't exist outside of just an idea believed in, I use the word nobody.
Or non existent. Sharp and gets to the point!
I'm not arguing there is no body/mind though. Obviously this exists. looks at his hands
So your saying someone can't have an awakening experience and still cling after it subsides? It seems like most people still have this clinging until completely shifted. Idk?
And I'm not stuck in emptiness, or trying to be clever "hopefully" haha. The reason I say this is because I know there is more to see, and that's humbling.
Please don't take what I say as I'm making a firm stand and telling you all how it is.
It's just an idea that I'm super passionate about. It was a huge aha moment.
So I wanted to share.
Who knows maybe I'm actually going insane, if there weren't others saying the same things I would probably be worried haha.
Sharing is a good thing. Important. You are not going crazy. An experiential comprehension of emptiness is very different from getting it intellectually.
... however always remember that with 'great insight comes great responsibility' (SpiderBodhi) ... what that means is developing an empathy for how things are heard ...
I am at the stage of sitting in the naughty corner with the ice cream dharma heretics. That means being ... well ... we are all doing our best for others {{{ group hug }}}
@SpinyNorman I don't think it's a completely random occurrence, it's almost like certain people just have an inclination that something is up with the way they perceive the world. I guess religion or spiritual practice resonates with their feelings so they investigate.
If life is completely spontaneous, what I'm saying is that this might be the case. So therefore nobody had actually done anything, life is just living itself. And somehow some people see through this. But it's a spontaneous thing. Nothing to do with meditating for years. Egos can meditate for years and never see through themselves.
I'm not really suggesting anything, just that this might be the case
@lobster I need to work on that then. I've done this type of thread before and it didn't get received well.
I let Alan Watts do the talking for me and it still didn't get received well.
Sorry guys! I'm not saying what your doing is a waste of time and you are never going to wake up doing what your doing.
Just the possibility that life has been doing it and "you, me, I" is always the after thought.
I'll have to work on my conversation skills.
you lot!
Okies!
I'm just saying what mistakes I have made so to help others not make the same mistakes. I said to myself once "I don't need to do this practice stuff anymore, there isn't anything to find anyway, etc, etc, etc". And that was a huge mistake!! So stupid! Wasted 10 years of my life, LOL.
The Path-less Path that leads one to the Gate-less Gate Um "I" like it