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There is no path to enlightenment! That's good news!
@seeker242 said:
Okies! I'm just saying what mistakes I have made so to help others not make the same mistakes. I said to myself once "I don't need to do this practice stuff anymore, there isn't anything to find anyway, etc, etc, etc". And that was a huge mistake!! So stupid! Wasted 10 years of my life, LOL.
I recently listened to a Buddhist Geeks podcast with Jack Kornfield, and in it he states that he believes there is not one big-E Enlightenment, but rather enlightenments. He goes on to say that teachers from all religious traditions experience awakenings in different ways, and whatever they have experienced is what they teach... that's why you get some people who say " Awakening is all about feeling one with the universe," while others say it's an "annihilation of the sense of self," or "feeling universal love." These can all be aspects of Awakening, but not the only actual thing itself.
So although I think I understand what Watts is talking about, and what Zen teachings talk about, I think they are all missing that one little bit: maybe we are screwing up because we are seeking That One True Enlightenment Experience rather than being open to the idea that awakening/enlightenment can be something we may not even understand/see/know we are experiencing as awakening.
@Invincible_summer said:
I recently listened to a Buddhist Geeks podcast with Jack Kornfield, and in it he states that he believes there is not one big-E Enlightenment, but rather enlightenments. He goes on to say that teachers from all religious traditions experience awakenings in different ways, and whatever they have experienced is what they teach... that's why you get some people who say " Awakening is all about feeling one with the universe," while others say it's an "annihilation of the sense of self," or "feeling universal love." These can all be aspects of Awakening, but not the only actual thing itself.
Adyashanti says these as are by products of awakening. Nothing to do with what is seen.
So although I think I understand what Watts is talking about, and what Zen teachings talk about, I think they are all missing that one little bit: maybe we are screwing up because we are seeking That One True Enlightenment Experience rather than being open to the idea that awakening/enlightenment can be something we may not even understand/see/know we are experiencing as awakening.
It seems that is people who are not permanently awake that describe different aspects. Emptiness, I am God feeling, no self etc.
Some people I talk to say it is life simply aware it is aware. It is a permanent shift in perception. There is no doubt and nowhere for it to arise.
I feel there is only one permanent shift but people describe it in different ways. But who knows right, may as well find out.
So although I think I understand what Watts is talking about, and what Zen teachings talk about, I think they are all missing that one little bit: maybe we are screwing up because we are seeking That One True Enlightenment Experience rather than being open to the idea that awakening/enlightenment can be something we may not even understand/see/know we are experiencing as awakening.
Que?
How can I put this politely ... you know. Knowing one is awake is part of non-dreaming ...
1
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@Lionduck said:
All the 'One with the Universe', go to gate 1
All the 'Annihilation of self', go to gate 2
All others go to gate 3 to be sorted out later.
Sorry, just couldn't help it.
Are you sure you're not a real live comedian in disguise? Good stuff there, Maynard!
0
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@lobster said:
How can I put this politely ... you know. Knowing one is awake is part of non-dreaming ...
Save it...I know I'm going in circles.......how can one be sure they are awake? They could be pretending without knowing they aren't awake seriously
@Invincible_summer said: He goes on to say that teachers from all religious traditions experience awakenings in different ways, and whatever they have experienced is what they teach... that's why you get some people who say " Awakening is all about feeling one with the universe," while others say it's an "annihilation of the sense of self," or "feeling universal love." These can all be aspects of Awakening, but not the only actual thing itself.
Yep, everyone has a unique experience. It's like reading a load of different film reviews and then thinking you've seen the film. Or reading a load of travel guides and thinking you've actually made the journey.
@Earthninja said:
It seems that is people who are not permanently awake that describe different aspects. Emptiness, I am God feeling, no self etc.
Some people I talk to say it is life simply aware it is aware. It is a permanent shift in perception. There is no doubt and nowhere for it to arise.
What I mean is that even the permanent shifts in perception/the awakenings may be different from person to person, which I think is a very reasonable premise.
@lobster said:
How can I put this politely ... you know. Knowing one is awake is part of non-dreaming .
I suppose what I meant is that the awakening may not be what you expected based on preconceived ideas of what "awakening" is.
This is one of my favourite videos by Alan Watts. It's about 10 minutes and this was a lecture where he did not hold back.
He goes into why all methods to obtain enlightenment are just a way to continue the egos apparent existence.
I really feel this is incredibly helpful for anyone who is interested in realising who they are not.
Another example is Adyashanti. This guy meditated everyday for 2-4 hours in his home built zendo. Under a guidance of a teacher.
He was so driven to understand what enlightenment was.
After about 5-6 years of this, I can remember exact amount.
He was sitting in his Zendo and thinking, "today is the day!" After meditating for awhile he hit a walk. A complete surrender spiritually, psychologically and emotionally. He realised he had failed. He couldn't do it any longer. All those years of perfect mudras, mind stilling and hours of meditation didn't help.
At THAT moment, of realising he couldn't do it. His first awakening.
The seeker had ended. Although he meditated still, but not for any purpose.
I really feel this is what all the scriptures are about, realising "we" will never get enlightenment. Because "we" don't exist.
An imaginary character can never see it is imaginary. An imaginary character doing "spiritual practice" to see it is imaginary still won't work!
The realisation doesn't come from the "person"
Egos can still have awakenings, but it is seen in that moment that you don't exist. As in personal volition. It's all spontaneous.
I think why very few people awake fully is because you have to let go of yourself fully.
The life you thought was "yours" is no longer you. You become nothing. Life takes over. And this hurts.
Some people describe it as a personal Armageddon.
Ofcourse the scriptures leave all this out, nobody would touch this. We want the bliss of what we think enlightenment is. Not realising you have to dissipate as the idea we are for this to happen.
I've had some glimpses into this so far, and when attention comes around and looks at "I" and sees nothing. Then it dawns in the brain that there actually is no separate "you".
It is scary as hell, you can sense the impending doom. Like your life is being ripped away from you.
But after a while it fades, and everything is still as much as it was. Just you have a different perspective. Being nothing and everything.
Not everybody is the same with this. Just an idea to play with. I found this helpful when I realised "I" could never attain enlightenment. "I" was what is in the way.
Too true - the "I" never attains Enlightenment.
Enlightenment is an infinite state you can't know it you can only be it.
One of the most difficult questions I asked myself was - what is that I want from this enlightenment? How exactly should it look like, to satisfy me?
I couldn't find the answer, which wouldn't be tainted with things I heard or read about it. Moreover, it was always accompanied by desire and grasping.
Childish, isn't it?
It's far better to look at the present moment and investigate what is happening. There is no other way of removing suffering then finding it in ones own being. Applying practice templates may be useful at the beginning, but if there is no way of correlating teaching with an actual experience, it becomes useless. We end up carrying bag of signposts, not knowing how to use them.
@Earthninja said:
Or you can be the present moment. Rather than investigate it.
Can you be something else than the present moment?
Being different, requires effort. That is why people practice for only 30-60 minutes, when every day has 24 hours. What I know, is that understanding is required to change your perspective effortlessly, and you need a good investigation for that.
Buddha did a lot of that before his realization, and he continued doing it for the rest of his life.
Findings are really important, without them, methods are too slow and costly.
Or simply say "Oi dunno!"
I know that people don't like to be asked those "silly" question, but the thing is, those are the most valuable components of a forum discussions. I know people who spent decades forcing themselves into practice, just because they were not strong enough to ask those "silly" questions.
can you be something else than the present moment?"
No, that why I said what I did. understanding is necessary yes, you don't need effort for that though. Understanding can arise at any moment. With or without effort.
Probably most of the "insights" if you can even call them that have occurred in times where no effort was there.
Like driving to work?
Just the way life works I guess
@Earthninja said:
Barah said
Probably most of the "insights" if you can even call them that have occurred in times where no effort was there.
Most, if not all of them. This is probably why mystics call them grace, and attribute it to God. Amazing and mysterious. Nevertheless, they do require a fertile, well prepared ground.
@Barah said: I know that people don't like to be asked those "silly" question, but the thing is, those are the most valuable components of a forum discussions.
Things are not always what they seem on forum discussions.
@Earthninja said:
Barah and what exactly would fertile ground be? For insight to occur?
I would hardly call me fertile. Lol.
My first insight into compassion (as something else than just an idea), was after a forum quarrel with a nice lady, who became a good friend of mine later on. I was re-thinking it while driving (ofc) and suddenly it struck me that we both were right. I didn't know why it was true, but it really didn't matter.
I think that extensive focus on how the mind functions, which can be silent contemplation, or a turbulent discussion, creates such a ground. Most of this forum topics touch this, but it rarely reaches a sufficient depth.
It's hard to reach a depth on a forum, don't they say 70% of conversation is non verbal?
So we often misunderstand each other on forums like this. It's nice when somehow it gels.
@Earthninja said:
Oh no barah don't do that. Federica will bust you.
It's like asking someone. Who is asking the question? Lol
Yesterday, we had a festival of 'Oi dunno!'. Wouldn't it be great to actualize it?
It's easy to talk, and look wise, but the true wisdom comes from being able to shift ideas into experience. Do you think Buddhism needs more written text? I don't. I think it needs more realization of their meaning.
"What are things?", isn't this a great and difficult question? If you look at it seriously, it's not as stupid as it may seem. (fertile ground )
@Earthninja said:
So we often misunderstand each other on forums like this.
My zafu says
that one of the signs of enlightenment
is a lack of any tendency to achieve, define or argue about enlightenment.
Perhaps this is what is called a Zen smell.
Perhaps all Zen zafu's should contain one of those talking Barby dolls devices that can remind us of the folly of spiritual avarice each time we sit upon it,
3
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Comments
@seeker242 hey I feel the exact same way.
thanks for your feedback and msg
Go well friend!
Oopps.... or perhaps it should be "The Gate-less Gate that opens out onto the Path-less Path" Um yes "Now" that sounds better
Misdirected, perhaps, but nothing is wasted.
"Speed up the folly"
I love it.
Great thread, Earthninja.
I recently listened to a Buddhist Geeks podcast with Jack Kornfield, and in it he states that he believes there is not one big-E Enlightenment, but rather enlightenments. He goes on to say that teachers from all religious traditions experience awakenings in different ways, and whatever they have experienced is what they teach... that's why you get some people who say " Awakening is all about feeling one with the universe," while others say it's an "annihilation of the sense of self," or "feeling universal love." These can all be aspects of Awakening, but not the only actual thing itself.
So although I think I understand what Watts is talking about, and what Zen teachings talk about, I think they are all missing that one little bit: maybe we are screwing up because we are seeking That One True Enlightenment Experience rather than being open to the idea that awakening/enlightenment can be something we may not even understand/see/know we are experiencing as awakening.
Adyashanti says these as are by products of awakening. Nothing to do with what is seen.
It seems that is people who are not permanently awake that describe different aspects. Emptiness, I am God feeling, no self etc.
Some people I talk to say it is life simply aware it is aware. It is a permanent shift in perception. There is no doubt and nowhere for it to arise.
I feel there is only one permanent shift but people describe it in different ways. But who knows right, may as well find out.
All the 'One with the Universe', go to gate 1
All the 'Annihilation of self', go to gate 2
All others go to gate 3 to be sorted out later.
Sorry, just couldn't help it.
Que?
How can I put this politely ... you know. Knowing one is awake is part of non-dreaming ...
Are you sure you're not a real live comedian in disguise? Good stuff there, Maynard!
Save it...I know I'm going in circles.......how can one be sure they are awake? They could be pretending without knowing they aren't awake seriously
Federica is going to bust me for this but
Bad boys 2 reference
-
Yep, everyone has a unique experience. It's like reading a load of different film reviews and then thinking you've seen the film. Or reading a load of travel guides and thinking you've actually made the journey.
Alan watts vs Buddha...yeah Buddha gets that one hands down.
What I mean is that even the permanent shifts in perception/the awakenings may be different from person to person, which I think is a very reasonable premise.
I suppose what I meant is that the awakening may not be what you expected based on preconceived ideas of what "awakening" is.
Na uh! My guru is way better than your guru! :P Haha.
Must be the water...
People sometimes read too much into their experiences.
The mind always tries to understand, that's it's nature. If there is no meaning the mind will create one haha.
Too true - the "I" never attains Enlightenment.
Enlightenment is an infinite state you can't know it you can only be it.
..Tag, you're it!...
https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M2f6b6a6441d4ddbd7671800c8f8c5ca9o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=270&h=168
One of the most difficult questions I asked myself was - what is that I want from this enlightenment? How exactly should it look like, to satisfy me?
I couldn't find the answer, which wouldn't be tainted with things I heard or read about it. Moreover, it was always accompanied by desire and grasping.
Childish, isn't it?
It's far better to look at the present moment and investigate what is happening. There is no other way of removing suffering then finding it in ones own being. Applying practice templates may be useful at the beginning, but if there is no way of correlating teaching with an actual experience, it becomes useless. We end up carrying bag of signposts, not knowing how to use them.
Yep, that's what mindfulness is for. Simple really.
Any findings?
Or you can be the present moment. Rather than investigate it.
You are it.
Can you be something else than the present moment?
Being different, requires effort. That is why people practice for only 30-60 minutes, when every day has 24 hours. What I know, is that understanding is required to change your perspective effortlessly, and you need a good investigation for that.
Buddha did a lot of that before his realization, and he continued doing it for the rest of his life.
Findings are really important, without them, methods are too slow and costly.
@Barah said:Any findings?
It's mostly empty space, inside and out.
Ok.
Does it hook your attention, or do you need to force yourself to stare at it?
It's fascinating. Sometimes it's best to stop asking silly questions and just enjoy the view.
Or simply say "Oi dunno!"
I know that people don't like to be asked those "silly" question, but the thing is, those are the most valuable components of a forum discussions. I know people who spent decades forcing themselves into practice, just because they were not strong enough to ask those "silly" questions.
@Barah said
No, that why I said what I did.
understanding is necessary yes, you don't need effort for that though. Understanding can arise at any moment. With or without effort.
Probably most of the "insights" if you can even call them that have occurred in times where no effort was there.
Like driving to work?
Just the way life works I guess
Most, if not all of them. This is probably why mystics call them grace, and attribute it to God. Amazing and mysterious. Nevertheless, they do require a fertile, well prepared ground.
Things are not always what they seem on forum discussions.
@Barah and what exactly would fertile ground be? For insight to occur?
I would hardly call me fertile. Lol.
Then what are things?
(couldn't resist myself).
Oh no @barah don't do that. Federica will bust you.
It's like asking someone. Who is asking the question? Lol
My first insight into compassion (as something else than just an idea), was after a forum quarrel with a nice lady, who became a good friend of mine later on. I was re-thinking it while driving (ofc) and suddenly it struck me that we both were right. I didn't know why it was true, but it really didn't matter.
I think that extensive focus on how the mind functions, which can be silent contemplation, or a turbulent discussion, creates such a ground. Most of this forum topics touch this, but it rarely reaches a sufficient depth.
It's hard to reach a depth on a forum, don't they say 70% of conversation is non verbal?
So we often misunderstand each other on forums like this. It's nice when somehow it gels.
Yesterday, we had a festival of 'Oi dunno!'. Wouldn't it be great to actualize it?
)
It's easy to talk, and look wise, but the true wisdom comes from being able to shift ideas into experience. Do you think Buddhism needs more written text? I don't. I think it needs more realization of their meaning.
"What are things?", isn't this a great and difficult question? If you look at it seriously, it's not as stupid as it may seem. (fertile ground
Honesty is the way, but it's often prohibited
.
You can start right now. Just keep saying "Oi dunno" and really mean it.
I though that it was your practice
, if it really is, where are the results?
(plenty of definitive statements flying around...)
As I said earlier:
"It's mostly empty space, inside and out."
Do you have any idea what that means?
No clue.
I thought not.
Should I?
Again with the silly questions. I give up.
My zafu says
that one of the signs of enlightenment
is a lack of any tendency to achieve, define or argue about enlightenment.
Perhaps this is what is called a Zen smell.
Perhaps all Zen zafu's should contain one of those talking Barby dolls devices that can remind us of the folly of spiritual avarice each time we sit upon it,
"Hello, this is your ass speaking....."
The path is to not harm others and take care of your loved ones. And enjoy and study etc...