Morality
Mingle
Veteran
Something I have struggled since I stopped believing in a man in the sky years ago. Where does it come from? If I wanna nice car why shouldn't I just steal it from someone else? Why would that make me weak? I get that there is precepts but Buddhism also says (or so I believe) that we should look at reality non judgmentally without denial and on that basis that Is why Buddhism complies with science so well. What if In fact humans by nature have no morals, we weren't always civilized after all. To me it seems everything was competition for dominance. Either you were strong and could get away with whatever you want or you where weak and got stepped on. What if even in modern times we start to run out food, what will we become? I've heard of this happening in certain countries and people have resorted to cannibalism and even eating their own children it got so bad. Its sickening yes but I always have the feeling at the back of my mind that we are deep down monsters which makes it hard to believe in things like the 5 precepts. How do you feel about this?
Comments
You tell me. Where does yours come from?
I don't know - why shouldn't you?
What do you mean by 'weak'?
Where does it say that? Link/reference please.
First provide your source for the above statement....
We've been civilised an awful lot longer than we weren't though. What kind of primal pre-civilised humans are you referring to?
Even Gorillas and chimps have measurable 'morals'...
To you, maybe. That's a bit extreme isn't it?
How about - "Either you were strong and took the responsibility of protecting those less strong, or you were weak and looked to others for protection and guidance"
Farmers and hunters. Besides we got good scientists working on that...
Again, source, link and reference. Thanks.....
You're talking 'extreme' nonsense. I think you've been reading too much science fiction and not enough about Buddhism.
Sorry @federica I know I sound crazy. I'm speaking out of my own insecurity. I guess I have little faith in humanity deep down. I don't really have sources but the bit about science I've always thought of Buddhism as logical that's why I follow it. Einstein even said
"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism."
I have the same doubts from time to time, usually when I study some aspects of the teachings regarding moral principles. They are presented as a path that will lead you to something greater (e.g. "awakening"). I think that is a possibility, but I believe that actually it's the opposite: when you are "awake" you realize how everything is connected, how everything influences everything and what is your place in the middle of all this. At this point, I think moral behavior is a consequence of your understanding. It's not a set of rules to be followed, but the natural way to act in the world.
@Mingle
I tend to approach it from the meditative perspective.
Meditation can soften and dissolve the identity conditioned barriers that separate self from others.
You'd be amazed at how morally folks tend to behave once they really understand that nothing separates anyone's **actions from the consequences that **everyone shares in.
The monsters, saints and Gods out there, turn out to be as within as without.
Who gets called what, just depends on who hangs on to that imaginary separation and who doesn't.
Why be Wise? Everything trumps Trump and his uncontrolled Trumpet. [bit of a conflict between kindness and honesty. If I was wiser I would leave the ignorant to fall into their own efforts]
Why be Buddhist. Iz cool. For example look at @how answer and he would not even call himself 'a Buddhist' ...
More clues to follow ... hopefully not from me and my immoral monster self ...
If you're speaking out of your own insecurity, it would naturally follow then, that you are aware it's a distorted, biased view, based on fear, rather than rational logic.
Buddhism is infinitely logical.
Your views aren't because they discount the natural goodness humans are also blessed with.
There's your stumbling point.
You're being neither rational nor logical.
You're speaking from a base of fear and uncertainty.
Actually, Einstein didn't say that. The phrase is actually a composite and hash-up of some things he said, and other words maybe not even spoken by him, at all. There is no written record or account anywhere of him actually speaking, writing or even offering those words, anywhere.
It used to be the frontis of a former Buddhist website, and in spite of being advised by many members that the quotation was entirely inaccurate and misplaced, they continued to perpetuate its inaccuracy and falsity.
I would point you therefore towards the Kalama Sutta, and advise you to believe nothing - especially your own possibly groundless and certainly dramatic fears.
Take time to study the Buddha's logic, and ground yourself by calming your mind, stilling the fearful thoughts and just breathing.
I wish you well.
@mingle -- I think you are right to bring this topic up and to try to get a handle on it. No matter how confused or confusing it may be, Buddhism -- the lively, alive Buddhism, not the feel-good stuff -- operates on what might rightly be tagged with the Hindu label, "the razor's edge."
The "natural goodness" of (wo)man is (at least initially) matched at every turn by a natural capacity for cruelty and anger. If you doubt this, I invite you to look at the world. If I don't exist in any abiding sense, why shouldn't I do whatever the hell I want? Everything is one. It all comes out in the cosmic wash. Meaninglessness is everywhere, so I might as well have a good time.
The trouble is that a "good time" is never quite as good as it's cracked up to be. It is, as often as not, unsatisfactory when it comes to assuring an end to doubt and a grounded peace. Meaninglessness is somehow abhorrent, which is one reason students may surrender themselves to the useful-but-not-assured realm of ethics: Just be a good girl/boy and heaven will come calling.
But when ethics don't quite fill the bill -- when the counterpoint to each "good" deed is mirrored by a "bad" one -- it may be time for another perspective, one alluded to by @how: Meditation offers an experiential setting in which "meaningful" and "meaningless" are no longer an imperative. Meditation takes patience and courage and doubt. It is not intellectual and it does not rely on emotional outpourings for its livelihood. And it is in this realm that Buddhism -- the lively, alive Buddhism, not the feel-good stuff -- takes on what are sometimes called clarity and compassion. It works ... and that is really all that anyone needs to know.
But each person must find out individually what works and what doesn't. Believing it is a minor matter. Finding out is the meat and potatoes. If what works assures peace, who cares if it's called "Buddhism?" It's the fact that it works that counts.
If you're feeling fragile and unsure ... well, welcome to the club. No one who ever took Buddhism seriously ever did so because s/he was so damned happy or assured. Do you feel like a self-centered twerp alternating with a brash superman? Welcome to Club Uncertainty. Making mistakes is not so bad: Look back in your life and I think you will see that it is the times when you have made mistakes that you learned the most.
That's Buddhism: Mistakes R Us.
Best wishes ... and I hope all of this blither means something.
Awesome topic mate, firstly it seems all creatures want to be happy right?
It's inherent in our nature. Everything we seem to do is to be happy. Dogs want to be happy, humans want to be happy.
Now when we have a distorted view/understanding about life. We think heroine is the only way to be happy, so we abuse it and end up miserable off the stuff. We link the high of heroine to happiness. But it's temporary so we then suffer.
Now say for example you hurt someone, physically and you are fuming with anger. Are you happy? Would you like to stay like that all the time? Obviously no.
It happens but we know it doesn't feel right. It's like poison in our system.
Say you help a dog caught in a fence, you free it and help heal it's wounds. You give it shelter and food. The dog licks you head to toe.
How does that feel?
Do we need precepts to do this? Nope. We don't need "written morals" all that BS expectations about what is good or bad.
We know already what is a loving act. It's a physical/emotional thing.
We are not monsters, we are just confused humans. Are nature is pure but we are just a little lost that's all.
We have such a capacity to love, it's something that's spontaneous and already here within us.
All these BS things we tell ourselves drag us away from seeing it. I don't need a book to tell me that loving someone is a good thing.
We are no more monsters than a flower in spring time. That which moves grows the flower is the same thing that grows us.
Buddhist practice tends to make you more aware. More aware of your own motivation, more aware of other peoples' needs, and more aware of how your actions affect them.
At very least, you shouldn't do things like steal and kill because they are unlawful in almost every society on the planet.
Why are they unlawful? Because they harm other people.
We may not have always been "civilized," but once humans (or our ancestors) began living in groups, we developed and learned how to get along better in groups.
Morality is generally not innate. While killing and stealing is generally considered "bad" in most societies, there are some societies where certain forms of killing/stealing/torture/etc are accepted in certain circumstances. For instance, how the death penalty, assisted suicide/euthanasia, selling marijuana, etc are legally and socially accepted practices in some places but not others.
However, I think humans have socialized themselves in groups for long enough that mindless killing/stealing/etc wouldn't happen should disaster strike. We always hear about isolated incidents re: cannibalism, looting, etc because disorder is more interesting news than order.
I think it just boils down to not causing harm because we wouldn't want harm done to us. I think that's something that's been honed into us over the course of humans coming together to create civilizations.
Even if you look at war and conflicts today, they are mainly about keeping "order," whatever the definition of "order" happens to be.
So the problem is not that humans are innately evil or cruel, or even if they're innately good and benevolent, but rather that both aspects collide in what we call the "ego" - imposing the "I" on everyone else. Buddhism teaches how to lessen our need to do this and get along better.
Morals to me are all about what we apply to ourselves, and not something we can take and apply to others. We tend to have some generally agreed upon ideas that humans shouldn't cross, but we also reason justifications when crossing that line is ok. A lot of the time when people what we might see as "bad" things the conditions that contributed to it were a cascade of other bad things happening to them, which were caused by conditions handed to those people as well. It's the human condition. There are always "what ifs" and "buts" to morality.
But I think general morals come from a deeper place. They come from our true nature which is not "monsters" but pure love. When you can operate from your heart rather than your judging ego, you know what is right and wrong in a different sense. And there most certainly are people who can apply it no matter the situation. People who are tortured and otherwise horribly mistreated who forgive and love their captors and feel intense compassion for them. People who would not resort to animalistic tendencies in bad situations. We might be biologically wired towards particular behaviors. But I totally believe we can short circuit that by training our minds otherwise.
Well said.
then The Force becomes unbalanced ...
The two are linked. Practicing a morality/ethics/goodness is a resonance/tendency/template that increases our personal potential. If an immoral or unethical person gains even a small amount of insight or more likely 'steals spiritual power' as for example Darth Vader
Such people, rogue 'teachers' can be learned from but the highest morality is a hidden personal virtue not a show of ultra-spiritual wisdom.
“I find your lack of faith disturbing” Daath Veda
Ethical behaviour is both the foundation and result of Buddhist practice. "Fake it till you make it" so to speak.
It comes from having empathy, sympathy, compassion, etc.
Because you would not want someone stealing your car.
It wouldn't "make you weak", that kind of action is just a byproduct of weakness that's already there. Only people who are foolish and ignorant do such activity. And ignorance and foolishness is by definition a weakness.
The precepts really don't have anything to do with all of humanity, it has to do with training yourself and your own mind to lay a foundation non-harming to yourself and others. If you want to become wise, you have to lay a foundation of non-harming first.
@Mingle
Morality is definitely self-imposed. The real question is why do we do it?
I would say it is because of our intellect. At some point in the development of all societies and individual lives, we recognize the needs for the overall advancement
of our existence.
One good way to decide if something is moral, is to compare your thoughts, words and actions to either a see-saw, or an elevator.
See-saw: elevates one, and lowers another. Net gain, zero.
Elevator: elevates all involved. Net gain, 100%.
If the summation of our entire civilizations thoughts, words and actions is a net gain of zero, we aren't advancing.
There are different levels. On one level simply stealing creates bad karma for yourself such as you get caught. Or you could get a bad reputation or bad associates. And also stealing affects your mind and hinders you from becoming non-attached to samsara.
http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/moon.html
Do you feel good or bad when you harm someone? Do you feel good or bad when you see others suffering? Do you want to hurt people or help people? Do you not care about people?
My experience is that Buddhist practice opens my heart and engages me with the world in a loving kind way and this is exactly what I want: a loving genuine engagement with the world.
Practice has also shown me that happiness does not come from trying to get things, so trying to get things at the expense of others is pointless. If I steal money from someone for example, that money may buy some cheap and fleeting pleasure, but that cheap pleasure is ugly and unsatisfying compared to realizing that I already have more than I need, that my life is a beautiful wonderful gift even with all its problems and difficulties.
Anything more would be redundancy. Although that has not stopped anyone yet.
Life is wonderful, even when it hurts.
makes it hard to believe in things like the 5 prec. How do you feel about this?
Yes we are all animals but always think that we are different from animals. We are humans who remains in group like wolves for easy living. And we do hate,jealous and does things like animals. But certainly some humans realise futility in such behaviour and becomes stable at thoughts are known as enlightment.