The Self
Mingle
Veteran
Been exploring the notion of "no self" lately after reading a great book called Buddhism Plain and Simple. It is almost trippy to think about really. Apparently If I interpreted it right the "self" or "I" is an Illusion. After meditating I have often wondered If my personality is really the true me or maybe I have somewhere along the way I have created a false identity for myself and now I am trying to live up to this. For example we all get a little anxious sometimes but were not completely anxious all the time. What If I get anxious on one occasion and my mind decides I am an anxious person then from then on whenever I feel anxious my mind will say its just me being me but forgetting all the times I'm not anxious if this makes any sense. What If you decide you absolutely detest a certain genre of music? I find with this my mind then become biased and will then reject any song I hear from that genre even when deep down I kind of like it. What's your thoughts?
Comments
Oh thoughts on this subject are legion.
You have Noooooooo idea what you've started continued.....
Remind me, someone, have we actually ever discussed 'self/Not-self' before....?
There is no self, anywhere.
We say "my mind" or "my body" the thing that says "my" is a thought. It isn't actually there. That's why they call it a hallucination or illusion.
There is no "person", the mind(thoughts) break up reality into seeming separate things and events. The biggest one being the "person"
But outside of the body/mind there is no such entity. "Chris" is just a name this body mind was given. Through shared words, the brain somehow believes there is somebody living life and making choices. But when looked at and investigated, you can see it isn't true. It's obvious.
Feelings happen by themselves, thoughts happen by themselves, bones grow, cells reproduce, heart beats by itself. Sleep happens by itself, attention happens by itself.
There never was anybody living life. That's the illusion.
Freedom from suffering is not some attainment the "person" gets. Freedom is when the brain sees through it's own charade. Then there's nobody who was born, nobody to die.
But... This creates a lot of fear, because then "we" are seen to be just a story. A hologram that really had or has no choice. This is why enlightenment appears hard, who wants to see they don't actually exist? (Only as a story)
Hands up?
That's why we suffer, things don't happen the way the "person" wants. Feelings like anger or love, just arise. We like love, we don't like anger. Yet there never was anybody to reject or accept. Just the feelings and thoughts about them.
We exist as a story, there are some people whose brains seem wired to see through this illusion. Most people don't.
There will always be belief in this separate entity. And when you believe you are a person. Then duality is created.
Self, versus other.
Life has always just been living itself, that which grows the flower is that which moves the body. The scary thing for many people is it can be seen that there isn't even someone making choices. Choices are made the same way thoughts arise.
There is nothing to attain, no way we can change what's going on. Nobody to accept or reject it. Nobody was born, just life/existence doing it's thing.
Realising this is liberation but nobody even does that. The brain either does or doesn't.
Your going to start saying this is all some highfalutin buddhist concept that Is pointless I keep harping on about lol.
Funny how me and you were the first ones to comment. I think this might be the third time we've engaged in this in the past 6 months haha.
Oh we're engaged now are we? I wasn't even aware we were dating......
Zen biology lesson for "not self"
The self or "I" (like all phenomena) is just a concept created by the mind based on the sum of parts coming together due to causes and conditions.
When we actually search for it we realise it doesn't exist.
"Because the ego deals in form and definition, it cannot comprehend the Self - which is beyond all form but without form would not appear to exist. In reality, there is no subject nor object; therefore, there is no relationship to be explained."
-- David R. Hawkins
The individual sense of self is a handy tool that gives us perspective.
In my view, our true self is a non-abiding one and mind sends signals to the brain. When we search while seeing the physical as existing but the non-physical as non-existent we run into problems, I think.
I've gone out to look for me.
If I should show up before I get back, keep me here until I return.
Somebody goes looking for somebody, somebody finds nobody. Then realised nobody was looking for nobody.
Striving to be a Nobody
A lovely poem composed by the late Bhante Suvanno, Abbot of Lunas Buddhist Hermitage in Kedah, renounced at age 60.
Tee Hee - thanks @pegembara
To remind those of you wishing to confirm your somebody/nobody status
http://liberationunleashed.com
Do it. Let us know what returns ...
Before asking what self is, it's good to know what "is" is.
What does it mean that something "is", and what is the nature of being. Without dividing it into self and other, body and mind, what are the universal qualities of being?
Anicca, anatta, dukkha.
Now everything that is, inherits those qualities, and it becomes totally irrelevant how you call it. Self, according to Buddha, needs certain qualities. For something to be the self, it cannot lead to afflictions, and it should be able to take any form it wants (Anatta-lakkhana Sutta). Mind appears as a natural candidate, but because it inherits all the properties of existence, it fails in fulfilling the requirements.
Even if we disregard Buddhas definition of the self from Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, whatever we come up with, it will always be marked by qualities of existence.
I once asked a buddhst monk online. He replied: anythng solid is self, anything fluid isn't.
Maybe you should have asked "what is solid" then.
Even an illusion is not nothing or we could not label it as illusion.
I think the idea that we are separate and are thus individual selves is an illusion but quite a handy one once we learn to use it as a tool and know we are not separate.
If we were all just illusions to be seen through, does it really solve anything or make morality even harder to define?
Why have compassion for a bunch of illusions that don't even really exist?
And what is perceiving the illusion?
Once we stop desperately trying to find the true and abiding self, define it, cage it or even dismiss it, it is free to simply be what it is but what it is is not a thing and does not abide.
"I AM" but the cycle of subjective clinging to fleeting memories ( data filtering through the sense doors) of past actions and reactions =karma in motion
The SELF
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we still try to do wholesome loving things for our 'self' or for 'other' people. and those things are meaningful. non-self is not nihilism that anihilates meaningful behaviour or feelings. like my friend is grieving and it is meaningful for me to help her even though we can say that there is no 'self' or 'other'. other things can be stirring or meaningful as they appear evident.
What is more interesting? What you 'think' you 'should' understand? Or what you actually see and think about?
https://www.facebook.com/BuddhismConnect/posts/409577552536199
there may be no self but doesnt mean there's no pain. Just bcus we say 'there is pain' instead of 'I am in pain' it doesnt mean the pain goes away.
I spent a too goodly amount of time conversing and arguing over this self/no-self stuff on a non-duality forum and now - in the end - I've decided it's meaningless for me - there's nothing in it that makes much sense in daily life. I have no idea why there's so much contention over it among some 'combatants'.
I am because we are.
Ah...that dependent origination thingy.
Actually, it's 'Ubuntu' and Zulu in origin.
Um, do you mean that the 'Ubuntu' (a people?) / Zulu said it before Buddha coined the 'dependent origination' thing?
{Hakuna Matata!}
You think therefore I am.
You're fine, how am I?
Probably delightful
The "middle" self should work out perhaps? Not too selfish not too unselfish.
I don't think the self is a problem.
"I" was curious one day so "I" said to "myself" why is it when "I" seek you,that you become stealth ?
When"I" think "I" have found you, you just disappear, fading away as if you are not here
You just arrive 'out of the blue and make your presence felt in all that "I" do
"I" am throwing in the towel, "I" gave all that I've got-If "I" continue to seek you, "I" could well lose the plot !
Perhaps I should cling to nothing, just go with the flow, um now that sounds good "I" might give it a go!
There are lots of people agonising about getting rid of the self without having a real clue of what the self is.
non duality = non self = emptiness
(advaitha = anatta = sunnata)
?
Okay. What is it?
Feel it.
Who is feeling who/what ?
The self/no self thing reminds me of a story I heard.
There once was a little girl who was scared of the ghost in her room. How do you get rid of the ghost?
Same as the "person" how do we get rid of the idea of this separate entity?
If you believe it exists, that's what's going on. If you think it doesn't exist that's what's going on.
Occasionally the brain sees through this illusion, then your whole perception of the universe changes.
Self manifests as intention, which is nothing more than reaching out. If you want to see how self looks like exactly, observe your thoughts, and when you notice intention/desire/clinging, move your attention to your body (inside of your head and chest) and then let go of this intention. You will notice relief happening in the "inner" body, with a particular shape. After few times, you will be able to feel exactly how this reaching out looks like.
OK let's take a short break.
Put sum chestnuts, shrimp, steak, tofu or whatever on the fire, grab our/your brew of choice, kick back, take a deep breath, and just r-e-l-a-x.
Self will do just fine and non-self will find it's way as well.
Peace to all