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Elements (Dhathu)
upekka
Veteran
i am not sure we have discuss 'elements' before
if so please bring it up
and if not
what do you know about elements
thanks in advance
0
Comments
We've discussed the 4 elements of form ( earth, water, wind and fire ) and also the 6 element formulation which adds space and consciousness.
There are some more but I would have to look them up.
Note that in a Buddhist context "property" is perhaps more accurate than element.
This article introduces the eighteen dhātus, which can be arranged into six triads. Each triad is composed of a sense object, a sense organ and sense consciousness.
Not sure if that's what you meant by 'dhathu'?
The four elements in Pali are known as catudhātu. Article about elements here.
@Walker thanks! Very helpful. Personally, I prefer the translations:
"focal object, sense-consciousness, and sense-faculty (or organ)"
Visual form | seeing-consciousness | eye
sound | hearing-consciousness | ear
and so forth, with the "intellect" as a sense-faculty; one that takes images/ideations as focal objects.
So those are dhatus like elements of experience.
Then there are the elements of the world-experience ... earth wind fire water space ... and mind. Earth wind fire and water are already balancing always, so we must balance the mind, as Garchen Rinpoche states.
Earth, water, wind and fire (+space) = solid, liquid, gas and heat (+space). These are ways of understanding the material world. The body is composed of solid, liquid, gas and heat/metabolic processes.
THANKS
how can we recognize these four properties?
Try to feel them directly as properties, internally and externally. Earth as that firm, solid feeling, the feel of the wind on your face, the warmth of the sun on your skin, the feel of water on your hands, that kind of thing.
thanks
by doing so i can recognizse earth property because its firmness, fire property because its coolness and warmness
but
feel of water also help me to understand the earth property and fire property not the wind property or water property
so i need to know the characteristic of water and to recognize air property and wind property
??
These are ancient concepts and there is a great deal of symbolism associated with them in different traditions. In most traditions the elements are regarded as fundamental properties or essences, while in Buddhism they are regarded more as aspects of experience. Note our recent discussions on sunyata ( emptiness ).
Do some washing up and feel the water on your hands, or swim in the sea, feel the property of water.
Feel the wind in your face or watch trees bending, that is the property of wind or air.
but
feeling is with the help of body and you can say their is earth property and fire property only
there should be some way to recognize other two elements
otherwise we can not say 'know with our (your / my) own faculties' (paccattam vethi thabbo)
by the way apart from four basic elements there are four derivatives too
You're over-thinking this. Massively.
no
i don't want to go through dhamma at superficial level any longer and i do not want anyone to go through dhamma at superficial level
that is the reason i ask this questions, not because of 'my' over-thinking
in dhamma it says apart from basic elements there are derivative elements call colour, smell, taste and texture
and
each and every form is constitute of four basic elements and four derivatives of them
and
if we understand those eight elements (shuddastaka) we will be able to see every form that are changing nature,
so any shuddhastaka (any form -form , sound-form, smell-form, taste-form, etc.) is impermanent
and will help us to know the impermanent which is one characteristic of three seal (tri-lakkana)
Yes, but do we really want to, and is it absolutely necessary?
I mean, as you need to just 'drop' everything to attain enlightenment, why not just 'drop' the over-thinking, now?
Is it getting you any closer to your intended objective?
Why do you believe this is essential to your progress? Or ours, for that matter?
We all know and understand impermanence.
Nothing speaks of impermanence more loudly than Christmas day.
I mean. we've all been spending the last month thinking about it and discussing it, and wow, look. It's gone for another year.
That's Impermanence for you!
Why is impermanence important? Because when the thoughts/feelings go away, "you" are still here. "You" are not them.
Likewise the self ie. one who hears, smells, taste etc is also impermanent.
@upekka says, "...if we understand those eight elements (shuddastaka) we will be able to see every form that are changing nature,
so any shuddhastaka (any form -form , sound-form, smell-form, taste-form, etc.) is impermanent
and will help us to know the impermanent which is one characteristic of three seal (tri-lakkana)"
By the time you've posted one post, "Every minute, about 107 people die in the world and roughly 240 infants are born. It's a breakneck dance of life and death that's pushing the planet's 7.1-billion population to a never-before-seen immensity, with impacts on civilization remaining a matter of supposition and worry.
It's tough to comprehend how large the human population is swelling. But data cruncher Brad Lyon gives us a good taste with this new visualization, "World Births and Deaths in Real-Time." The interactive map of the seven continents swarm with green and red bursts representing, respectively, the appearances of newborns and poor souls biting the dust. Try to watch it on a desktop browser for the best results, as pulling it up on a phone could bring on severe headaches."
Isn't that enough to get a really good feel for all of life's impermanence?
The rest of the article and links here: map-shows-where-world-people-are-dying-and-being-born
Smile while you can.
so far, not only just this thread, but many threads that came with my questions and the responses i got from other members have helped me a lot in my practice
with what you mentioned here it is obvious that you do not understand impermanence yet
but silver this is not what impermanent is in Buddha's Teaching
it is more subtle than examples gave by you and federica
i am smiling with you silver
I'm not sure what you mean by the Buddha's teachings are more subtle -- I'm pretty sure that all the impermanent things in life are both subtle and remarkable. It's all included. I think only you can explain the subtleties that you feel are in his teachings.
Dividing the nature of our understanding into four quality elements may be helpful.
In terms of contemplation:
Earth is about grounding, solidity, physical sensation
Water is about emotions, fluidity, flow, feelings
Fire is about will, activity, focus
Air is about mind, speech, transience
http://yinyana.tumblr.com/search/elements
Observation of the elements is more about anatta/sunyata. You can look at the body as a collection of elements in temporary conjunction.
Hurrah!
You wouldn't think so. I have to say form my own personal perspective, it's hard to know exactly how such processes truly help you advance a single step, at times. Could you explain exactly how they have helped your day-to-day, practical practice?
Don't you dare to presume that you can tell me whether I have understood impermanence yet.
I am fully aware and cognisant that ALL compounded phenomena are impermanent.
I am fully aware that in my senior years, my life seems to have passed in the blink of an eye, and that every day I witness is one day less, every breath I take is one breath less.
I would remind you of the Buddha's own words, in his Simsapa Sutta:
There are some things more important than others with regard to focus and learning.
And I fear you have not covered the rudiments of the Four Noble Truths sufficiently, to even begin exploring others.
Subtlety was not always necessary for the Buddha to get his point across.
Subtle was the 'Flower Sermon'.
The analysis of impermanence is not subtle.
It is extremely simple.
But you are choosing to create a complexity around its diverse aspects.
There's a beginning, a middle and an end to every single thing we think, see, smell, hear, taste, feel, say, express and experience.
One moment it's not here, then it is, then it's gone.
Finito.
End of.
Done.
Sayonara.
That's it.
Subtle enough for you?
Could you explain exactly how they have helped your day-to-day, practical practice?
they (the responses to my questions) helped me to think over (contemplate) after having a calm mind (continue to vipassana after having a calmed mind) and clear some aspects of Buddha's Teaching
'they' helped me to look into 'the question' from a different different angles and get a bigger and better picture
i just said, what i guessed looking at your response
then tell me what do you mean by 'ALL compounded phenomena' (with your own words, not with sutta excerpt)
there is no argument about this
may be or may be not
may be it is very simple to you because you are wiser than me
for me that is not the case
do you know why it is so
it is not easy to understand, that is why so many questions arise
be patient with my 'dumb questions' and be kind enough to 'let others to help me'
thanks federica
May Triple Gems Bless You
So what do you know for sure, now, with total certaintly that you didn't know before?
No. They just made you think of more questions, which is, as @SpinyNorman said, definitely OVER-thinking.
You need to let go.
You didn't guess, you presumed. You presumed wrongly.
"All compounded phenomena" are all things which come to our perception and we analyse in particular, subjective ways. This can range from a mayfly, to a mountain. Whatever is perceivable, is a compounded phenomenon. Tell me one thing that isn't?
Then quit arguing.
No, definitely. Until you fully grasp, understand, know and utterly accept the Four Noble Truths in their entirety, other questions are of secondary importance.
It's like reading the middle chapters of 'War and Peace without having fully read the preface and previous chapters.
I don't claim or state that I am either wiser or less, than anyone else.
For us who observe your mental machinations, committed to words, it most certainly is...
Yes, it is because all compounded phenomena are impermanent.
The problem is, this isn't helping you, because it merely prompts more questions which seem to indicate you are absolutely none the wiser.
You too.
you have pushed me, you pushed me to the wall
now i do not have any other option
for sure, now, with total certainty i know 'what is Four Noble Truth', 'i have things to do because still not 'katham karaniyam', 'how such things should do without asking anyone'
really i asked so many dumb questions because people ready to answer to someone who is humble than a person 'who comes to preach'
and
that is a way of Teaching
i know Teaching methods, because i taught in two universities, one in my own country and one in another country, for nearly 20+ years
answering to all other questions and responding to all other statements is irrelevant now
i will not start any more thread here after, so no worries
by the way, the last thread in which i asked a question and you were hurried to close was also had the same intention, i mean my intention was to develop a fruitful thread
now, you know the reason for that
thanks
MTGBY
You gave it your best shot, @upekka . Thanks for trying.
Personally, it's my goal to be the only member who has never started a thread. My record is unbroken, so far as I know.
And that is in itself, commendable. You must have your reasons.
(You have, actually. Flagging a comment counts as beginning a thread..... They are however, stored out of the public domain.
So they don't 'count', as such.....
)
They didn't know about protons, atoms, and so on.
That's true, though I do find the ancient elements model rather elegant in the way that it describes "stuff" from an experiential point of view. Intuitive and practical.
The four traditional elements ( earth, water, air and fire ) also correspond quite well with a modern understanding of the states of matter, ie solid, liquid, gas and plasma.
I remember doing something similar with Triratna years ago. I'm not sure what the point of it was though?
^^^ The point in meditational practice as an example, is to become aware of what is happening, in other words awareness.
Earth is very much grounded in physical sensations, the nature of the physical being, sensations of breathing, contact points etc
Water is how one is feeling, calm, emotional, agitated, indifferent etc
Fire is ones focus, will, intent etc
Air ones mind condition, thoughts, mental arisings etc
Spirit ones more refined, intuitive Buddha Nature etc
In a sense they are 'all mind' but breaking them into components gives insight into flitting, monkey mind ...
according to Buddha there is 'Eight Elements" (four basic elements and four derivatives)
at the beginning we have to have faith in his Teaching because we are not wise enough to see the Truth in it
Patavi (earth), water (apo), thejo (fire), vayo (air) are the four basic elements and colour, smell, taste and texture are the four derivatives
earth has the characteristic of hardness, softness, heaviness, lightness
water has the characteristic of collecting and dis-intergrating as quick as it arise
fire has the characteristic of cold and heat
air has the characteristic of movement and pushing
i think you all agree to the above (if you are not sure but you can have faith in Buddha and believe in what He preached until you do your experiment and see whether this Teaching is true or not)
now we can do the experiment with tools we have and using them with the raw material provide by the nature
if you have a problem with 'recognizing the tool and raw material' you can get the help of our Good Friends in this forum
try to do the experiment and try to 'see' the 'Eight Elements'
all compound things = all conditional things = subbe sankhara ???
Sabbe sankhara, yes.
practising mindfulness on the body is the first step in four type of mindfulness
do not you see the important of it to understand the Truth and go beyond the world?
there are several methods mention in that part ,
that means not to practice all the methods, but to get hold at least two or three methods to see the Truth through our own body
we all have our own body wherever we go
so do not have to bother to find a meditative object
sankara = defilement
sankhara / volition = greed, hate, delusion
everything is different from conditional things/ compound things
everything may be same as conditional things / compound things
everything (computer, tv, house, land, etc.) is changing, but that is not the meaning of impermanent in Buddha's Teaching
but every conditional thing happens (effects) because of (paccaya) greed, hate and delusion (cause)
in each thought moment five aggregates (form, perception, feeling, volition and consciousness) arise and fall
when one is able to see this with wisdom one is able to see emptiness / sunyatha
(avidya) ignorance is the cause for (paccaya) conditional thing (sankhara/volition)
ignorance is not the cause for everything (house, computer, school, government etc.)
what do you think?
i hope i am not giving any trouble to anyone by writing this post
but do you know
it is mentioned in some suttas that there are 10 elements (patavi, apo, thejo, vayo, vnna, gandha, rasa, oja, akasa, vinnana)?
and
it is mentioned in some suttas that there are eighteen elements?
There seem to be a number of different formulations.
My favourite sutta relating to the elements is MN140: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html
I was taught the practice in conjunction with physical martial arts movements. Five elementary katas (set of movements) were done in the style of each element. This improved ones understanding of initiating and responding to different fighting styles on a body awareness level.
On a meditational level I use the techniques for focus and disciplining/focussing the mind. Just as easy to use the breath. However the association with centres of awareness/chakras gives insight into how we think with our
and other elements of being ...
thanks @lobster
as usual you help me to think from another point of view
if you remember you provided sometime ago some information on colours and shapes and their relation to stupa/pagoda as meditation object
now i see the relationship between chakra and colours, in other words chakra (development of mental capacity through meditation on body) and colours (meditation on basic elements (properties)
instead of writing on and on about the relationship that i see between chakras and elements
(these are not necessary to understand Buddha's Teaching to 'get rid of Dukka')
if we know the four basic elements and four derivatives of them, we can be sure of the impermanent nature of the form we see, hear, smell, taste, feel, think
lightness, heaviness, roughness, smoothness are the characteristics of Earth property and which can be feel through the body (touching) and if any of the characteristic is there that means all other seven properties are there
(for example we feel smoothness or roughness of the key board , so that means all other seven properties, namely water, fire, air, colour, smell, taste and stength are there, at the moment of touching )
connecting and instantly disconnecting are the characteristics of Water property and if we can break anything into two parts that means there are other seven properties
(for example if we can break a piece of wood into two, that means there are eight basic elements)
pressing and moving are the characteristics of Air property and if anything is moving or can be pressed then it is possible to know all other seven properties are there
(if we see a movement of a thing that is the result of a pressing, or if we can press and move a thing, that means there is Air property and all other seven properties are there too)
warmness and coolness are the characteristic of Fire element
(for example if we touch the table now can feel the warmness of coolness of the table and there is Fire property and at the same time there are other seven properties)
if we see a colour, that means there are eight basic elements in what we see, say the computer screen in front of us, we see white colour and we can know there should be other seven elements and because of the characteristics of water elements the computer screen is always changing (impermanent)
if we smell coffee now, that means.....
if we taste some tea now, that means.....
if we feel.....
etc.
we can understand these things (at least we can try to understand)
just by knowing eight elements (shuddastaka) we can understand impermenant nature of external 'things/people' and our body
think a bit over the above, it will help us to understand about the world that we know