What is the "stuff" of consciousness
person
Don't believe everything you thinkThe liminal space Veteran
I was thinking about mind and came at from a slightly different perspective. This isn't about where consciousness comes from, brain or wherever, but rather what is it actually made of?
There are certain brain states and neuronal patterns associated with seeing the color red or hearing the sound of a drum, but in our minds there is an experience, something it is like to know everyday things directly that is apart or above neuron firing, even if created there.
Like fire from burning wood, if the brain is the wood, what is the fire of the mind? Everything we know about and measure is physical stuff, but is this "mind stuff" physical or something else?
I don't have any answers, it was just kind of mind expanding to think about and I wanted to share to see if anyone else had any thoughts or ideas.
Comments
i don't know the answer to the above question.
but my thinking over it goes like this - the above question is similar to the question - what is that thing inside us, which makes us alive? we have a body, drilling it down to its lower levels, we would reach cells.
my guess since i took maths and not biology in class XI, which was a long time back, so currently i know very little or almost nothing about biology - so my guess is that these cells are made up of atoms(which we have studied in chemistry, which comprises the periodic table). these atoms as per quantum physics drill down to quarks, which further drill down to strings, as per String M theory. so the lowest level we reach is strings, which is a one-dimensional object, so in a way it is not a physical object rather a mathematical function and is a form of energy.
moreover, heisenburg (if i remember correctly) discovered about the particle and wave nature of electron - an electron is both a wave and a particle simultaneously - when an observer tries to locate the electron, it behaves as particle, but when no observer is looking at it, then the electron behaves as wave. what an electron is it is a particle going from a higher energy orbit level to a lower energy orbit level and that difference of energy is perceived is emitted as a photon, which makes the light through which we see objects.
so seems like everything comes down to energy, but the question arises what is energy? the answer to this question, which i am thinking of currently is - we cannot say it is a physical thing, as we cannot see it directly, but due to it things can do activities.
but the question still remains, what is that thing which creates our aliveness? in hinduism, this thing which keeps us our body alive is called prana. in chinese, this thing is referred to as chi. but then we have different religions with their own theories about Atman (or Purusha), Spirit(or Consciousness), Buddha-nature (or True Self) etc.
coming back to energy, then how can we define what is physical and what is mental - as everything we think of physical is also in a way created through our mind.
in the movie The Tibetian Book of the Dead, in its opening lines there is a sentence - on the luminous continuity of existence, which has no origin and which has never died, human beings project all kinds of images of life and death .
What you wrote reminds me of the program I watched just a couple days ago on dvd's from my library. It's season 2 of the show called Through the Wormhole. Talks about this very thing, among other things like life after death. I tend to believe that we are all mysteriously connected, and just maybe the quantum theories are the scientific community's way of explaining it.
Consciousness = energy.
Somebody compared consciousness to light.
light=energy
Off the cuff
1) "Existence" that which exists...Can consciousness be present if nothing exists to experience it?
2) The physical and non physical ...
I find using logic to try to explain the mind, will eventually lead to the illogical ...Well this is what I've found...But then that's just me and I'm quite irrational/illogical anyway
Here are some ideas ...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-superhuman-mind/201303/what-is-consciousness
I wonder if those Buddhists who have 'no self' are the zombies mentioned ...
Chalmers poses a different problem for physicalism. He tells us to imagine a molecule-by-molecule replica of ourselves, exact down to each individual neuron and its firing state. He then asks to consider whether it’s conceivable that this creature is a philosophical zombie, that is, a creature that is behaviorally indistinct from us but lacking consciousness. Even though on the outside a zombie appears conscious just like you and me, is it possible for it to be “dark”.
Sure, but there are different types of energy. Light seems like a good analogy because like consciousness it illuminates.
Alternatively you could relate consciousness to energising life force, in which it would be analogous to electrical energy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/aqa_pre_2011/energy/heatrev4.shtml
I was thinking about energy as consciousness. It seems like energy is generally more diffuse and erratic than the defined images in consciousness and wouldn't we be able to detect it or is that what brain waves are? Also, I wonder if how energy and matter are the same through E=mc^2 if energy and consciousness convert like Consciousness=ec^2
Shouldn’t we see the brain as just another vital organ? Its task is to produce consciousness and thoughts (to keep you safe), just as e.g. the kidneys’ task is to get rid of waste products. Just as the kidneys, it can get ill or not work optimally, and just as your muscles, it needs exercise to work well.
In my view consciousness could be boiled down to an equation for sure.
I don't know. Star Trek did a good job at this scenario when William Riker was duplicated.
They shared the exact same memories up until duplication and then as the circumstances changed, they were affected differently and thus became two distinct personalities and individuals.
Brain waves, etc are not a measure of consciousness. They are physical(?) manifestations of activity but...
Interesting, the concept of consciousness measured as an equation. But, can one equate energy as a co-factor of consciousness? It might be easier to measure the coefficient relations of string sub-particles...
I've been looking for mine for decades now, left it somewhere...If I find it, (my consciousness) I'll have to put it to the test. But I've been told I have to be conscious first. (details, details, details)
Peace to all
I don't think there is anything that is not some sort of energy. Even the potential for physical energy (taking up space) is a kind of energy existing in space itself. (Form=emptiness, emptiness=form)
I have never bothered actually trying to find my consciousness. I guess if it was ever missing I was unaware.
It's like trying to find a microscope under its own lens.
I just realized that I will probably never know what the outside of my nose smells like but my tongue is tasteless.
The term philosophical zombie doesn't reference some kind of thoughtless automaton. Its more asking the question how do we know anyone, other than ourselves, is actually conscious and not merely acting that way. Instead of thinking of a doppleganger think of the problem of determining whether an advanced AI doesn't simply act conscious and aware but has an inner awake experience or whether all the computations and outward appearances occur in the dark.
@person I've always wondered how I can know that when another person sees blue they see the same mental experience as me. Sure they label the sky as blue, but they might have a different visual experience. Certainly at least to some extent they must have a different mental experience. Perhaps they have a hobby of painting the sky or taking photos of the sky or some other thing that makes their experience of a blue sky different. But then I wonder if they actually see a different color they label 'blue'. Probably not. But there is no way for me to know.
If I were the only one actually conscious and everyone else is only here on my behalf then I should be able to mess with them. In fact, if it were all an illusion that elaborate I should be able to fly like a lucid dream.
Again, the only reference I could make go back to Star Trek, lol.
@David
The point isn't about actions. I've heard people referring to consciousness talk about things like short term memory, decision making, the ability to process information, etc. But that's not the sort of thing philosophers are referring to when they talk about phenomenology or qualia, they are talking about the completely subjective quality of knowing what its like, for example, to experience the color red.
The whole planet could be populated by philosophical zombies but you, but that wouldn't equate to solipsism or that they were an illusion. They are real, they would make decisions, have memories, the world would be essentially the same but no one would have the inner "movie" of consciousness occurring.
Yeah, I like that example. Back when I was a teenager this one guy I worked with tried to blow my mind with the same example but I didn't really get it back then.
Doesn't make a lot of sense considering the great works of fiction some have created.
Just too many plot holes.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. This is a thought experiment in its own right, not related to ideas others have had about being.
Excuse the intrusion ....Slightly off topic, but not too off...I guess it's all part of the stuff consciousness is made of
)
Optical Illusions are fascinating, I love the Now you see it...Now you don't ones ( Little things please little minds
...On the back of Daniel C. Dennett book "Consciousness Explained" is this ....
We can detect the energy field generated by the brain. It creates an aura that goes beyond the physical body, and when someone concentrates intensely, it increases. But I had in mind when I posted earlier, that consciousness is a field, just like that energy field, and it's said to permeate the universe. So it must be a form of energy, no? Just trying to think it through.
When it comes to Daniel Dennett, I guess this is where there is a difference in opinion about the nature of consciousness as he is firmly in the physicalist camp.
I feel like trying to explain my, and others, view is like trying to explain water to a fish. Yes, the brain works to fill in the color gaps or to fill in the gaps in our perception to give us depth perception, or whatever other numerous things happen with the brain. What the "hard problem of consciousness" is referring to is just the simple, ordinary event of experience. Like why aren't we walking around doing everything we normally do but our experience is like being under anesthesia, why is it like something to be us.
Right, ok, I'm thinking about the individual events that occur in consciousness, does it coalesce into something specific, whereas the energy fields seem more amorphous. I don't know that its not energy or related to it, it just seems like there is something more going on.
Oh, ok. You mean like, "how does it work"? Yeah. Good question. hmm....synapses...and our will, as we direct our thoughts.....hmm..... ponder ponder
Food for thought.
From the link I posted earlier ...
A closely related theory, panpsychism, holds that all aspects of reality have some “psychological” properties apart from their physical properties. This type of property dualism suggests that the universe has consciousness at its base. While this theory certainly is elegant, it is thought by some to carry metaphysical baggage. One complaint has been that, if this theory is true, then all matter would have a certain element of consciousness to it. Because consciousness is inherently connected with the phenomenal, this is a peculiar result, for it’s hard to imagine how there could be something it’s “like” to be an electron, table, chair, tire or other inanimate object.
Both this and the idea that a physical mechanical man such as Data in Star Trek is conscious, teleported humans are not destroyed and then recreated etc are explored.
In Dharma these explorations are eons old. Similar fantasy conjectures have been proposed. However what to do about the 'stuff' or experience of consciosness is very clear. Attain liberation/awakening.
Reposting this quote I put in another thread because it posits the question 'what is space made up of'? Perhaps something to think about if you are asking what the 'stuff' of consciousness is.
I think the space analogy works better for mind than for consciousness. Consciousness is more like the light that illuminates the space.
I think there's a distinction here between consciousness and self-consciousness. All living organisms have some awareness of their environment, you could say different degrees of consciousness. But that's not the same as self-consciousness, being aware of ourselves.
You know, the subject of consciousness is one of the last great mysteries we struggle with in our quest to understand the universe and our place in it. We have gobs of theories to replace the religious "God gave us a special spirit" creationism that served in the past. Really, though, we simply don't know yet what and how this thing called consciousness or "self awareness" works.
Can we create an artificial brain that is conscious? My opinion is probably not, not with something that acts like a human being. That's because what we recognize as human is as much the result of our sloppy and uncontrolled mind, our emotions and impulses, as it is our processing and decision making power. Creating a supercomputer that beats us in chess isn't creating a consciousness because the computer doesn't care if it wins or loses. Programming a computer to mimic our conversation skills doesn't create an intelligence any more than looking into a mirror creates another person.
It's weird though.
Put into perspective, is AI really less plausible than globs of mostly water becoming conscious over time?
If it happens at all, it will probably happen while we're trying to do something else.
I don't think I quite understand what you're getting at. So like would the unconscious android operating successfully in the world be self-conscious?
In some suttas consciousness is described as an element or property, along with earth, water, wind, fire and space.
There are microbs like unicellular amoeba. I don't think that they have emotions as a multicellular animal like human being.
Similarly we have developed artificial intelligence and challenging that there is something like consciousness or soul.
We are just combination of four or five elements.
In this fairly recent TED talk from David Chalmers, he proposes the idea of consciousness as a fundamental property and also that it is universal. He presents his ideas as a thinker not a preacher so there's no compelling you to think like he does.
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_chalmers_how_do_you_explain_consciousness?language=en
He also talks a little about someone named Giulio Tononi who has a working theory called IIT (Integrated Information Theory). It has some kind of mathematical equation and makes predictions.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-theory-of-consciousness/
@Person I love TED talks! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks @person I too enjoy TED talks....
Mind over Matter/Brain - Matter/Brain over Mind
We now know that our thoughts can physically change/help grow new brain cells...and in doing so improve ones quality of thinking/life, which in turn help create new neuropathway in the brain... It would seem that we are consciously (and unconsciously) doing this all the time...
Mind over Matter-Matter over Mind
I'm under the impression 'consciousness' is in itself a self generating tool
Where would one be without it .....
Here are two promising theories being investigated
http://www.livescience.com/47096-theories-seek-to-explain-consciousness.html
Both suggest that consciousness is the result of processing. Ideas that the mind/spirit/soul/god creates the brain/body are perhaps best left to fantasists/history/ignorance IMO.
Just a reminder that dharma is concerned with the nature and quality of that processing. In other words to overcome the dukkha inherent in the processing.
"What is consciousness?" is a fascinating subject and full of possibilities …
For example….(in the very basic unscientific sense) theory ( one of many)
Let's just say we are made up of vibrating subatomic particles,(energies) now image each energy particle coated with its own memory surrounded by consciousness…
Now picture the universal recycling process taking place, things falling apart (decaying) then coming together (forming) held together by karmic glue...
And throw a little Buddhist rebirth into the mix...."Voila...Déjà vu !"
Rebirth= the same flame (consciousness) that ignites different candles ( recycled memory coated subatomic particles)
”I am s/he as you are s/he as you are me and we are all together” (I was/am a walrus)
Tis possible Consciousness is just Being and Being Conscious is just that…"Consciousness"
(Damn you @person for making me conscious of and having to think of all the wild & wacky possibilities
).
Fire is consciousness.
Artificial microbes have been created in lab by scientist.
And yet the only Buddhist school that actually rejects the teachings on rebirth is Secular Buddhism. Strange that.
By the way I don't have a problem with Secular Buddhism, what concerns me is the pretence that the secular view is somehow representative of western Buddhism, which it clearly isn't.
How do you mean?
@SpinyNorman Fire is there due to heat, air/oxygen, and some carbon or matter to burn. And when there is no fuel or fire or oxygen it stops. Fire can move forward as the fuel and air it finds.
Similar the consciousness is !!
Reminded me of this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.nymo.html
today found this video while browsing internet:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FE6PgyxovxE&list=PLRQq7VXJzBVuUltioY9Ao2sWN4W-016EW&index=8
i haven't read all the above posts, so if this video link was posted above by someone, then please neglect this post, else this talk is interesting.
The OP used to post science videos here, years ago. I really enjoyed those. Maybe you could find something on the latest theories of consciousness, the physics relating to consciousness theory, OP?
As far as I'm aware there really isn't much in the way of science of consciousness. It's either neuroscience studying the correlates or philosophy. Check my previous post for a couple good links, one a TED talk by David Chalmers and the other an article talking about Integrated Information Theory, a working hypothesis on consciousness. @Lobster also had a link to a good article a few posts later.