Mahamudra

misecmisc1

hi all,

good morning.

today while i was browsing internet, i came across the below video link with heading Tilopa's Mahamudra and then i watched the below video:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tJbUHgbn2e0

it is very insightful. thanks to people who created internet, through which i came across the above video and thanks to the person who created the above video and thanks to the teacher who taught these teachings.

it seems to me that mahamudra is similar to zen.

does anybody practice mahamudra here?

metta to you and all sentient beings.

Jeffrey

My teacher is Shenpen Hookham who teaches from a Mahamudra background. You can look up her name and she has many youtube dharma talks if you want to read them. She moreso teaches from a mahamudra perspective rather than directly tell you what the mahamudra is (as a topic).

lobster

@misecmisc1 said:
it seems to me that mahamudra is similar to zen.

Good morning - if such it be ... birds waking ... OK, good morning ...

Awakening is similar to realisation. In fact they are just labels.

does anybody practice mahamudra here?

@Jeffrey is right we can be taught from a mahamudra perspective. So not that it helps anyone, we might say I have had teachings and practiced from this 'tradition'.

There is a book on Tibetan Zen that might be of interest but probably of little use ...
http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=129&t=11298

@misecmisc1 there is no 'great seal' (mahamudra) or 'ultimate meditation practice', some great teaching or teacher. They all have value, sometimes to reject as unsuitable or useless, more usually as applicable.

There is you, a moment and attentive awareness. Is this true, is this right? ... we might ask continually ... If so attend to the action ...

The attachment to opinions, holding to a personal path and a wounded ego. Holding to a 'how should I behave?', 'what should I do?' is what many of us are attending to.

All we need is a willingness to find the teaching/teacher in all things. A willingness and an attentiveness.

misecmisc1

i came across this video by Alan Wallace on Dzogchen:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FGzN4FAFgTs

and then i watched it. this video seems interesting and insightful.

is Dzogchen related to Mahamudra? any ideas, please suggest. thanks in advance.

lobster

Good video. Too long for me to watch but the idea of recognizing a teaching even though it goes over ones head is important. In essence teachings like Dzogchen may be too simple and direct. We have to engage in a period of mind stilling in order to benefit from a still mind/'being as is' teaching. Otherwise we mistake waffle/monkey mind/unrefined persona as 'perfectly buddha'. Kinda paradoxical.

Dzogchen and Mahamudra are largely identical. Mahamudra is often associated with Kagyu Tibetan lineages, Dzogchen with Nyingma. Zen with tea drinking and raking sand.
http://www.dharmafellowship.org/library/texts/the-ganga-ma.htm

misecmisc1

another video url https://youtube.com/watch?v=j9Vr_iPEviQ , which i watched today on Dzogchen. this video is a slightly long talk, but the teacher tells about Hinayana, Mahayana, Tantra and then Dzogchen. what i understand from this video's talk is - Mahamudra is the highest stage in Tantra. Dzogchen means totally perfect or totally complete. so mind's true nature is Dzogchen. there is no rule in Dzogchen. the teachings in Dzogchen are direct mind-to-mind transmission from teacher to disciple - i don't know what this mind-to-mind transmission is.

i had watched the movie Dogen and in that movie on Dogen, they showed Dogen received direct mind-to-mind teachings transmission from his teacher.

does anyone know here what this mind-to-mind direct transmission of teachings is all about? please suggest. thanks in advance.

lobster

The teachings themselves, the words if you will, are perfect.

However the transmission can not occur if they are not listened to in the right way. They are after all just words. This is why there is a reliance on the teacher, the manner and way the words are expressed.

I would suggest that a great deal of the 'wordless transmission' is present in youtube videos, if we are receptive.

Dzogchen and mahamudra teachers open a temporary experiential awareness, a bit like darshan in Hinduism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darśana

sova

@misecmisc1 said:
does anyone know here what this mind-to-mind direct transmission of teachings is all about? please suggest. thanks in advance.

Devotion via guru yoga

Jeffrey

Here is Lama Shenpen's educational facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/BuddhismConnect/

And a recent teacher to student interaction:

Summary: How to work with our habitual constructs, positive or negative in view of deeper meaning of Emptiness.

A student writes:

"As my practice has developed I have noticed a lot of habitual negativity in my thoughts and feelings. I start to see how we choose our world by the thought constructs we create, and these can be positive or negative.

However, I sometimes trap myself into thinking that all abstracted thought constructions are empty and have to be seen in the same way. I thereby avoid distinguishing the negative from the positive."

Lama Shenpen:

That is an important point actually. In some way, you are right. They are all empty.

But the problem is that our understanding of emptiness is somewhat restricted.

I think sometimes there is a tendency to push certain thoughts and experiences out of our mind with the idea that they are empty and insignificant, whereas other thoughts persuade us that they are somehow above such judgments and are real.

So we might favour negative thoughts as 'real' or positive thoughts as 'real' even though we are telling ourselves all thoughts are empty. Somehow we are still judging them and taking them as real. As long as that is happening it’s very important to cultivate the positive and discourage the negative.

But at the same time, if we are to realise emptiness we have to turn towards all thoughts with equal appreciation. Then we don’t dismiss them as empty. We sense their real quality and realise they are empty – simultaneously.

So worlds can be positive and negative and yet empty. We tend to choose positive worlds since we have the choice. Sensitivity naturally responds towards choosing happiness. It is its nature, so distinguishing the positive from the negative is absolutely necessary.

So why all the emphasis in Buddhism on not distinguishing good and bad?

Well, what we do is not really allow ourselves to experience things properly at all; we don’t really appreciate what is really good or really bad. So we have to learn not to judge things too quickly without experiencing them properly. That is why this kind of thing is said.

When we experience things properly then we are in a position to really sense what is good and what is not and that is how we learn to go beyond the judgmentalism of habitual thinking and rest in the true nature of Awareness, which of course is always good - and falling away from that is always bad.

But then again, if you grasp onto the idea that 'this is bad' it is the judgmental thinking mind again and to learn to let go of that we train by thinking it is important not to judge things so heavily as good and bad. So we might tell ourselves not to judge thoughts good and bad – in order to get back to the true nature of Awareness (which is always good!).

lobster

@misecmisc1 said:
i came across this video by Alan Wallace on Dzogchen:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FGzN4FAFgTs

Finally watched the video in its entirety. There is also a Dzogchen forum for those who like that sort of thing ...
www.vajracakra.com

I feel Alan Wallace is an able and accomplished practitioner. Alan is erudite, covers a lot of topics for the spiritual community. Seems a nice, balanced, professional, sane, scholarly full time ultra spiritual. Very pleasant. Comfortable. Impressive credentials, experience and lineage. Wonderful for pinnaclers.

I paid full attention to the video, I too can play ultra-spiritual.

I feel the spoken part of the teachings also available from the link will appeal to many.

My intuition is @misecmisc1 [using my non-spooky Buddhist powers] that dzogchen would suit your temprement. I know you like to be given a precise form of instruction, so fully appreciate why this appeals.

Because you are in India, your early interaction might be best suited to what is available. Part of that is cyber teachings. You will notice that Alan Wallace explores the value of vipassana, zen and his own lineage originally from a gnostic Tibetan nomad.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudjom_Lingpa

Came across a useful link in the video comments ...
http://www.remember-to-breathe.org

... and now back to the groundless boing being ...

caz

@misecmisc1 said:
hi all,

good morning.

today while i was browsing internet, i came across the below video link with heading Tilopa's Mahamudra and then i watched the below video:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tJbUHgbn2e0

it is very insightful. thanks to people who created internet, through which i came across the above video and thanks to the person who created the above video and thanks to the teacher who taught these teachings.

it seems to me that mahamudra is similar to zen.

does anybody practice mahamudra here?

metta to you and all sentient beings.

Hi there

Mahamudra is not similar to Zen, Zen is sutra based where as mahamudra is tantra based, Mahamudra deals with the very subtle mind which in nature is great bliss and emptiness its very practice is harnessing this experience and using it to cut away the most subtle delusions in combination with Highest yoga tantra deity practices.

Zen would deal only with the gross and subtle layers of mind not the very subtle mind as tantra does.

misecmisc1

hi all,

today while browsing internet, came across this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=6t2sWDYgJFE

then watched this video - just loved this talk by Alan Wallace, so thought of sharing this video URL with you all.

may you and all sentient beings be peaceful and happy.
may you and all sentient beings be at ease within yourself.
may you and all sentient beings attain enlightenment.

Jeffrey

For a book about Dzogchen Rigdzin Shikpo has the book: Openness, Clarity, and Sensitivity

Jeffrey

Something I came across today:

Milarepa - Tibet's Great Yogin -Naldjorpa

This wonderful new thanka shows the celebrated master in detail. In one of the collected songs he is ascribed having taught Mahamudra's Four Yogas or Naldjor Zhi (rnal 'byor bzhi) so they came into existence with his student Gampopa who received this inspiration from the Four Yogas (rnal 'byor rnam pa bzhi) from the Dzogchen Semde (rdzogs chen sems sde), where they are also known as Four Contemlations (ting nge 'dzin rnam par bzhi).

Namo guru! After a stay at White Rock Vajra Fortress Cave, the Jetsun Milarepa settled at Horse Saddle Cave to enhance his practice. A tantric yogi from Gutang, feeling a tremendous faith for the Jetsun, went to see him.

“Lama,” said the yogi, “I’ve meditated for some years, but I don’t think I got the point. I’ve hardly developed any qualities. So would you please give me an oral instruction?”

“Here’s everything you need to know—” replied Milarepa. And he sang the Song of Six Essential Points:

Mental projections way outnumber the dust motes you see in the sunlight;
A great yogi knows what appears for what it is.

At bottom, the nature of things isn’t a product of causes, nor of conditions
A great yogi cuts to the core of the issue.

Even a hundred men with spears couldn’t stop the thought-bubbles of consciousness;
A great yogi knows not to get hung up on them.

You can’t lock up the flow of mind in an iron box;
A great yogi knows mind to be intrinsically empty.

Wisdom gods and goddesses don’t say no to sensory pleasures;
A great yogi knows this full well.

The Buddha’s own hands couldn’t block the appearance of objects to the consciousness;
A great yogi knows there is no object behind the appearance.

“Do such experiences come about step by step?” asked the yogi. “Or is it all at once?” “Skilled individuals get it at once,” answered Milarepa. “It comes more gradually for those of average and mediocre abilities. Some develop definitive realization, others don’t, and others still get signs that look like realization, but aren’t really.” And he sang the song of distinguishing the four yogas:

I bow down at the feet of the supreme lama!

It’s the mind fixated on objects that causes samsara.
If you recognize as spontaneous
The luminous self-awareness, free of fixation,
You’ll taste the fruit of the first yoga, one-pointedness.

Some talk and talk about union, yet their meditation is all conceptual,
They talk and talk about cause and effect, yet their actions are flawed,
Such petty, deluded meditations
Have no place in the yoga of one-pointedness.

Luminous mind itself, free of fixation,
Is naturally blissful, without constructs.
If you recognize your very essence to be as clear as space,
You’ll taste the fruit of the second yoga, simplicity.

Some talk and talk about “no elaboration,” but they elaborate plenty,
They talk and talk about the “inexpressible,” but they’ve got plenty of terminology.
Such self-obsessed meditations
Have no place in the yoga of simplicity.

In the dharma body, appearance and emptiness are not two,
Samsara and nirvana are experienced as one.
If you know the Buddha and sentient beings to have the same identity,
As many have said: that’s definitely the third yoga, one-taste.

Some talk and talk about “oneness,” but they still want to make a point.
Such hazy confusion
Has no place in the yoga of one-taste.

Conceptual thoughts are in nature great awareness;
Cause and effect are non-dual, spontaneous.
They’re the three bodies,
And knowing this is the fruit of the fourth yoga, non-meditation.

Some talk and talk about non-meditation, but how active their mind is!
They talk and talk about “clear light,” but how thick their meditation is!
Such platitudes
Have no place in the yoga of non-meditation.

“Oh, what wonderful advice!” exclaimed the yogi from Gutang.

Nicole Riggs, Milarepa: Songs on the Spot, 2003.

lobster

Outstanding teaching @Jeffrey
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milarepa
Milerepa, poet, mass murderer and saintly adept. Wot a Dharma Dude.
... now available on video ...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0499238/

Thanks for sharing

misecmisc1

thanks @Jeffrey for sharing your above post.

misecmisc1

hi all,

while browsing internet today, i came across the below video containing dharma talk by Alan Wallace in a retreat given by him:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0j4j1TpudtI

on opening the above link, in the sidelinks, you can see the recordings of other days of this retreat.

i watched its first recording, then second day morning recording and afternoon recording. then watched the above recording, which seems very insightful to me and most of the things in second part went over my head, as many terms were involved in it.

i got few things like - essential nature is referred as dharmadhatu and manifest nature is referred as dharmakaya. Dzogchen teachings refer to pristine or premordial awareness referred as rigpa, which is non-dual. so the ordinary mind is obscured with delusion, then below it is a substrate awareness and below it is this primordial pristine awareness rigpa, which is non-dual and simultaneously it acts as dharmakaya as in samsara and dharmadhatu as in nirvana. both samsara and nirvana are projection of mind and when all dualistic views are cut, then rigpa or non-duality is experienced. - i can be totally wrong in my this theoretical understanding, so if i am wrong here, then please correct me regarding Dzogchen teachings. thanks in advance.

David

I'm sorry but it seems like people are trying to make it all so impossibly hard to understand.

Instead of saying the ordinary mind is full of delusions, it makes more sense (in my view) to say that the sentient mind uses certain illusions as tools but do not know this until they see it.

Non-dual necessarily negates opposites so samsara and nirvana would be like conventional polarities or "not two".

Duality is not bad, it is a tool we use.

When we see it as such we do not throw it away, we learn to be skillful.

Just two cents from the peanut gallery.

Jeffrey

"Pure vigilance must be an ease of recognition; otherwise, there is doing vigilance, and this is already not vigilant. When you hear this thought, 'Now I am going to do vigilance,' ask yourself, 'Who' is doing vigilance? This is direct self-inquiry. You will see that there is no one there, there is only vigilance. And then you will see that it is quite natural to be aware of passing objects as well as aware of what is aware of both passing objects and itself."
~ Gangaji