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@silver my favorite memory of church: my mom took me and my brother up on stage during alter call (the pastor calls for all those in need of prayer or those that wish to be born again through Christ) and we line up on stage side be side with a few other folks. My mom's in full swing, talking in tounges, eyes closed, hands up. And me and my brother are just up on stage. I watch as the Pastor prays over and "anointes" each person until he gets to me. He prays, places his hand on my head, and when he's done he says "be healed in the name of God" or something like that and then uses that same hand on my forehead to push me down as If I had fainted. I remember waiting there until my mom moved because I didn't want to be the first one to get up. I remember looking at them on either side of me covered up with burgundy sheets draped over us by the ushers, wondering had they been pushed to or had it actually worked on them. I spent the rest of my time in church waiting for something to happen that never came.
@morningstar -- I have a hunch you're right. Older people may express themselves with an assurance born of age, but it is not the sort of assurance that requires anyone else's agreement: Even a few years of experience can teach that everyone's going to hell -- or heaven if you prefer -- so we might as well enjoy each other's company on the trip.
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Fosdickin its eye are mirrored far off mountainsAlaska, USAVeteran
looked up at the corner of the ceiling (which now is pretty funny, btw) and earnestly asked Jesus into my heart!
I think it's a harmless belief, when I think about it now, anyway. And now, I'm a unofficial Buddhist
To my (undoubtedly warped) sensibilities, this is one of those practices that points as much to silence/stillness as it does to the obfuscations of doctrine, dogma, and church politics. An early introduction to Buddhism or Taoism, if you will.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
Ha ha, yeah @Morningstar - you gotta love that old time religion! No disrespect intended! I wonder what it was he thought you needed healing for.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2016
@Morningstar said: @silver my favorite memory of church: my mom took me and my brother up on stage during alter call (the pastor calls for all those in need of prayer or those that wish to be born again through Christ) and we line up on stage side be side with a few other folks. My mom's in full swing, talking in tounges, eyes closed, hands up. And me and my brother are just up on stage. I watch as the Pastor prays over and "anointes" each person until he gets to me. He prays, places his hand on my head, and when he's done he says "be healed in the name of God" or something like that and then uses that same hand on my forehead to push me down as If I had fainted. I remember waiting there until my mom moved because I didn't want to be the first one to get up. I remember looking at them on either side of me covered up with burgundy sheets draped over us by the ushers, wondering had they been pushed to or had it actually worked on them. I spent the rest of my time in church waiting for something to happen that never came.
I underwent something similar, when I went with a friend to a Baptist church. I was a practising Catholic at the time (obviously out of practice!) and the church had a large tank filled with water in front of the altar, because baptisms are practised on adults and total immersion is the preferred method.
On this occasion the tank was not in use, but the priest was offering to 'heal' those present of sins and afflictions.
I strongly suspected at that point, that he had been forewarned of my presence, and came over and lay his hand on my forehead, telling me I would be healed of my sins.
He prayed under his breath, and then asked me how I felt.
I replied "No different, really. I went to church this morning, and went to confession, so my priest forgave me already".
His hand left my head as if pricked by a pin.
He then had the audacity to tell me my priest had been mistaken and my sins were still very much in evidence.
"What, even after your ministration here? Not a successful attempt then?"
He walked away briskly, and never spoke another word to me or looked at me again.
Afterwards, as we left, the friend who had taken me there, began remonstrating with me, telling me she had been planning this for me for ages, but I turned on her, and asked her indignantly how on earth she dared to bring me to her church without any consultation or forewarning. I was deeply insulted and told her she had been extremely rude and presumptuous. Who the hell did she think she was to presume that she could bring me to her church and get me "forgiven for being Catholic?"
That shut her up. I can still see her face, now. I don't think she expected me to be so angry, because she had been so utterly convinced in her own mind of her righteousness....
She avoided me at school the following morning, and others in our friend-group told me I had been right to have a go at her.
Apparently though, she had confided her plans to them, and they hadn't told me.
I made it known then that I thought the whole 'my religion is more right than yours' rubbish was a pile of bollocks.
@federica said:
I made it known then that I thought the whole 'my religion is more right than yours' rubbish was a pile of bollocks.
Did anyone else notice?
There is a great deal of truth/integrity practiced by devoted people. There is a great deal of delusion/ignorance in dharma/religion/us.
How to find the difference?
Well ... as we start looking for wisdom and compassion, truth and awakening etc, we begin [spoiler alert] to find it. All around.
The Christians teach us humility, the Jews wisdom, the Pagans fun, the trees patience, food nourishment, Buddhism awakening, ground solidity ... and so on ...
The world is a revelation. Or in Buddhist terminology, samsara is the Pureland/Nirvana.
Test your knowledge on what Easter's all about....Easter Quiz (I got eight out of ten...Not bad for an Atheist who on the odd occasion attended Sunday school as a child )
I guessed at some of them, and knew a couple of them from reading Elaine Pagels on the Gnostic Gospels, and her Biblical analyses. Otherwise I'm pretty clueless.
Q. If Jesus, as the Orthodox say, is God incarnate, why would he cry out, "My God, why have you forsaken me?" on the cross?
@Dakini said:
I guessed at some of them, and knew a couple of them from reading Elaine Pagels on the Gnostic Gospels, and her Biblical analyses. Otherwise I'm pretty clueless.
Q. If Jesus, as the Orthodox say, is God incarnate, why would he cry out, "My God, why have you forsaken me?" on the cross?
Yes weird I know...God coming to earth only to sacrifice her/himself to save what s/he created in the first place, and then crying out to her/himself "Oh ME Oh My why did I forsake Myself ?....I guess there's some truth to the saying "God works in mysterious ways"
Buggered if "I" know
From a Buddhist perspective, it makes no sense that someone comes along for the purpose of taking away people's sins, or the karma therefrom. There's no free ride, in Buddhism; if you mess up, you're responsible, and you'll have to pay the piper sooner or later, unless you're able to overwhelm the seeds of the negative karma you've sown with positive karma seeds.
So, is that what the "Savior" bit is about? He came to save people from the consequences of their actions? Or he came to show them the way to a "righteous" life, a life of integrity? "Saved"? Saved from what?
I still can't quite get my mind around the concept. Maybe it's like conquering the ego, in Buddhism; Jesus came to save us from our own egoic actions, and to inspire us to live a better way, a compassionate way? Hmm.... that's actually beginning to make sense! By George...!
(Where is the :lightbulb: emoticon?)
@Shoshin I got 10/10. Some of the questions could have been answered in more than one way, depending on which Gospel you're reading, but multiple choice made it easier to pick what seemed the best answer.
Guess I paid attention in Church and Sunday School. My mom would be so proud of me.
@Dakini said:
From a Buddhist perspective, it makes no sense that someone comes along for the purpose of taking away people's sins, or the karma therefrom. There's no free ride, in Buddhism; if you mess up, you're responsible, and you'll have to pay the piper sooner or later, unless you're able to overwhelm the seeds of the negative karma you've sown with positive karma seeds.
So, is that what the "Savior" bit is about? He came to save people from the consequences of their actions? Or he came to show them the way to a "righteous" life, a life of integrity? "Saved"? Saved from what?
I still can't quite get my mind around the concept. Maybe it's like conquering the ego, in Buddhism; Jesus came to save us from our own egoic actions, and to inspire us to live a better way, a compassionate way? Hmm.... that's actually beginning to make sense! By George...!
(Where is the :lightbulb: emoticon?)
Yeah, seems weird that He'd sacrifice Himself to Himself to save us from a hell which He created because we broke rules that He knew that we'd break beforehand because He's omniscient.
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Dakini said:
From a Buddhist perspective, it makes no sense that someone comes along for the purpose of taking away people's sins, or the karma therefrom. There's no free ride, in Buddhism; if you mess up, you're responsible, and you'll have to pay the piper sooner or later, unless you're able to overwhelm the seeds of the negative karma you've sown with positive karma seeds.
So, is that what the "Savior" bit is about? He came to save people from the consequences of their actions? Or he came to show them the way to a "righteous" life, a life of integrity? "Saved"? Saved from what?
I still can't quite get my mind around the concept. Maybe it's like conquering the ego, in Buddhism; Jesus came to save us from our own egoic actions, and to inspire us to live a better way, a compassionate way? Hmm.... that's actually beginning to make sense! By George...!
(Where is the :lightbulb: emoticon?)
Well there you go. I don't think Jesus ever actually said he was there to die for our sins. It's called a sacrifice but it isn't like the guy nailed himself up there. They tried stoning him before but he got the heck out of sight and if it wasn't for Judas it may have been Good Wednesday a few months later or something.
He preached how to live. When the other Judas asked him if people that had never heard of him or his "father" would be screwed, he said that whoever lived as he prescribed (the Golden Rule) would be just fine.
It's funny because that's only a few verses past the famous "Nobody gets to the father but through me" bit but nobody seems to notice.
I find the whole thing kind of disturbing myself.
At the end he also asked God to forgive the people harming him as they knew not what they were doing... Doesn't sound like the words of somebody about to be killed as according to plan, does it?
Comments
@silver my favorite memory of church: my mom took me and my brother up on stage during alter call (the pastor calls for all those in need of prayer or those that wish to be born again through Christ) and we line up on stage side be side with a few other folks. My mom's in full swing, talking in tounges, eyes closed, hands up. And me and my brother are just up on stage. I watch as the Pastor prays over and "anointes" each person until he gets to me. He prays, places his hand on my head, and when he's done he says "be healed in the name of God" or something like that and then uses that same hand on my forehead to push me down as If I had fainted. I remember waiting there until my mom moved because I didn't want to be the first one to get up. I remember looking at them on either side of me covered up with burgundy sheets draped over us by the ushers, wondering had they been pushed to or had it actually worked on them. I spent the rest of my time in church waiting for something to happen that never came.
@morningstar -- I have a hunch you're right. Older people may express themselves with an assurance born of age, but it is not the sort of assurance that requires anyone else's agreement: Even a few years of experience can teach that everyone's going to hell -- or heaven if you prefer -- so we might as well enjoy each other's company on the trip.
@silver said
To my (undoubtedly warped) sensibilities, this is one of those practices that points as much to silence/stillness as it does to the obfuscations of doctrine, dogma, and church politics. An early introduction to Buddhism or Taoism, if you will.
Ha ha, yeah @Morningstar - you gotta love that old time religion! No disrespect intended! I wonder what it was he thought you needed healing for.
I underwent something similar, when I went with a friend to a Baptist church. I was a practising Catholic at the time (obviously out of practice!) and the church had a large tank filled with water in front of the altar, because baptisms are practised on adults and total immersion is the preferred method.
On this occasion the tank was not in use, but the priest was offering to 'heal' those present of sins and afflictions.
I strongly suspected at that point, that he had been forewarned of my presence, and came over and lay his hand on my forehead, telling me I would be healed of my sins.
He prayed under his breath, and then asked me how I felt.
I replied "No different, really. I went to church this morning, and went to confession, so my priest forgave me already".
His hand left my head as if pricked by a pin.
He then had the audacity to tell me my priest had been mistaken and my sins were still very much in evidence.
"What, even after your ministration here? Not a successful attempt then?"
He walked away briskly, and never spoke another word to me or looked at me again.
Afterwards, as we left, the friend who had taken me there, began remonstrating with me, telling me she had been planning this for me for ages, but I turned on her, and asked her indignantly how on earth she dared to bring me to her church without any consultation or forewarning. I was deeply insulted and told her she had been extremely rude and presumptuous. Who the hell did she think she was to presume that she could bring me to her church and get me "forgiven for being Catholic?"
That shut her up. I can still see her face, now. I don't think she expected me to be so angry, because she had been so utterly convinced in her own mind of her righteousness....
She avoided me at school the following morning, and others in our friend-group told me I had been right to have a go at her.
Apparently though, she had confided her plans to them, and they hadn't told me.
I made it known then that I thought the whole 'my religion is more right than yours' rubbish was a pile of bollocks.
Did anyone else notice?
There is a great deal of truth/integrity practiced by devoted people. There is a great deal of delusion/ignorance in dharma/religion/us.
How to find the difference?
Well ... as we start looking for wisdom and compassion, truth and awakening etc, we begin [spoiler alert] to find it. All around.
The Christians teach us humility, the Jews wisdom, the Pagans fun, the trees patience, food nourishment, Buddhism awakening, ground solidity ... and so on ...
The world is a revelation. Or in Buddhist terminology, samsara is the Pureland/Nirvana.
... could be master plan ...
@Federica (Still can't get the quote button to work)
Proselytizers---OY!
@federica
"He then had the audacity to tell me my priest had been mistaken and my sins were still very much in evidence."
lol this made me literally laugh out loud lol.
Test your knowledge on what Easter's all about....Easter Quiz (I got eight out of ten...Not bad for an Atheist who on the odd occasion attended Sunday school as a child )
"NO CHEATING !"
I guessed at some of them, and knew a couple of them from reading Elaine Pagels on the Gnostic Gospels, and her Biblical analyses. Otherwise I'm pretty clueless.
Q. If Jesus, as the Orthodox say, is God incarnate, why would he cry out, "My God, why have you forsaken me?" on the cross?
Yes weird I know...God coming to earth only to sacrifice her/himself to save what s/he created in the first place, and then crying out to her/himself "Oh ME Oh My why did I forsake Myself ?....I guess there's some truth to the saying "God works in mysterious ways"
Buggered if "I" know
From a Buddhist perspective, it makes no sense that someone comes along for the purpose of taking away people's sins, or the karma therefrom. There's no free ride, in Buddhism; if you mess up, you're responsible, and you'll have to pay the piper sooner or later, unless you're able to overwhelm the seeds of the negative karma you've sown with positive karma seeds.
So, is that what the "Savior" bit is about? He came to save people from the consequences of their actions? Or he came to show them the way to a "righteous" life, a life of integrity? "Saved"? Saved from what?
I still can't quite get my mind around the concept. Maybe it's like conquering the ego, in Buddhism; Jesus came to save us from our own egoic actions, and to inspire us to live a better way, a compassionate way? Hmm.... that's actually beginning to make sense!
By George...!
(Where is the :lightbulb: emoticon?)
"God" knows
Perhaps it was to save us from ourselves .......
Thanks for posting the quiz, @Shoshin. This has turned out to be a fun and informative thread.
@Shoshin I got 10/10. Some of the questions could have been answered in more than one way, depending on which Gospel you're reading, but multiple choice made it easier to pick what seemed the best answer.
Guess I paid attention in Church and Sunday School. My mom would be so proud of me.
Yeah, seems weird that He'd sacrifice Himself to Himself to save us from a hell which He created because we broke rules that He knew that we'd break beforehand because He's omniscient.
o.0
Now there's a brain-teaser, @Walker!
Well there you go. I don't think Jesus ever actually said he was there to die for our sins. It's called a sacrifice but it isn't like the guy nailed himself up there. They tried stoning him before but he got the heck out of sight and if it wasn't for Judas it may have been Good Wednesday a few months later or something.
He preached how to live. When the other Judas asked him if people that had never heard of him or his "father" would be screwed, he said that whoever lived as he prescribed (the Golden Rule) would be just fine.
It's funny because that's only a few verses past the famous "Nobody gets to the father but through me" bit but nobody seems to notice.
I find the whole thing kind of disturbing myself.
At the end he also asked God to forgive the people harming him as they knew not what they were doing... Doesn't sound like the words of somebody about to be killed as according to plan, does it?