aggregates
upekka
Veteran
there are five aggregates for Arahants and five aggregates of clinging for worldlings. they are form, feeling, perception, fabrication and consciousness. whenever we read, write, eat, walk, run, drink etc. these five aggregates arise and fall at one thought moment. if we do not know that this feature of five aggregates we cling to it as i, my, me, mine (self) and we think we can control whatever arises, but trying to control we create more and more five aggregates. this is because we have no idea about how the five aggregates behave or what exactly these five aggregates are. if we can know clearly (we think we know but we do not know exactly) about these five aggregates then the problem of suffering can be reduced because we can gain a certain amount of control of the five aggregates
i thought it would be a good idea if we discuss about five aggregates starting from the first aggregate 'form' it would be much fruitful in our practice regardless of what sects we are practicing, theravada, mahayana, zen, tantrayana, vajirayana etc.
shall we?
what do you know about 'form' in five aggregates?
once we grasp 'some' knowledge about 'form' we can go for 'feeling', etc.
Comments
My favourite analysis of the properties of form is in MN140:
"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html
so do you mean earth property is form and body parts are form?
Usually form is described in terms of the four great elements ( more accurately properties ), ie earth, water, wind and fire. Then there are all sorts of derived properties.
MN140 describes 6 properties of a person, ie earth, water, wind, fire, space and consciousness. You could look at this as a "form-heavy" alternative to the aggregates.
sure,
but can we take that (the body) as the only form in five aggregates?
I think rupa khandha (form aggregate) is anything that is solid, with substance and generates an image that can be observed. Not necessarily just the body. It has to be something where there is clinging and craving involved. Craving for forms is like an attachment to beauty, forms, shapes, and perhaps dealing with all the senses than just the visual sense. I could be wrong.
The suttas do make a distinction between internal and external form, which implies a distinction between stuff "in here" and stuff "out there" ( see MN140 and SN22.48 for example ).
On the other hand, we have this in the Phena Sutta:
"On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Ayojjhans on the banks of the Ganges River. There he addressed the monks: "Monks, suppose that a large glob of foam were floating down this Ganges River, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a glob of foam? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html
how about
things 'we' hear (sound form)
things 'we' smell
taste
touch
'our' thought
aren't they form?
Yes, though technically I think they are derivatives of form. I usually work with a simplified set, ie "sensations", "sights", "sounds" and "states of mind". They all begin with "S", and I can't remember more than four things anyway.
Rupa in Sanskrit(Malay as well) is appearance ie. what is seen. Rupa is image.
http://mykamus.com/free/2010/09/rupa/
http://www.kamus.com/may-eng/rupa
At Savatthi. "Monks, forms are inconstant, changeable, alterable. Sounds... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.002.than.html
At Savatthi. "Monks, any desire-passion with regard to forms is a defilement of the mind. Any desire-passion with regard to sounds... aromas... flavors... tactile sensations... ideas is a defilement of the mind. When, with regard to these six bases, the defilements of awareness are abandoned, then the mind is inclined to renunciation. The mind fostered by renunciation feels malleable for the direct knowing of those qualities worth realizing."
SN 27.2: Rupa Sutta — Forms
Your point about visible form as appearance is well made, though it's worth pointing out that sounds, tastes, smells and tactile sensations are also derived from form.
Observing inconstancy is what I've been working on for a while, I find it a productive approach.
Absolutely.
thanks for everyone contributed to this thread, and i think many who go through this thread might have a chance to check with themselves to see to what extent they knew the 'form' of five aggregates or how much they have taken it for granted that they knew what 'form' is
this is the exact point that i wanted to come when i started this thread
when you sit and close your eyes for your sitting meditate what you have to do is pay attention to breath in, breath out, sensation, sound, and states of mind
(you wait and see for whatever (from these five) comes through your sense doors and be aware it)
when you do walking meditation what you have to pay attention to is : left, right, sensation, sight, sounds, states of mind
(you wait and see for whatever comes (from these seven) through your sense doors and be aware of it)
(if you do several times the sitting meditation paying attention to the five mentioned above and walking meditation paying attention to the seven mentioned above -this is Insight meditation- you will be able to know .....)
if there is any experience that should be discussed further we can do so in this thread
if not you can continue sitting and waking meditation with new understanding you gain from your own meditation
Happy meditation!!!
for those who have tried sitting/walking meditation as above the next step is to break the 'experience' into two (during the meditation - this is 2nd appropriate attention)
(this is awareness of the object - mindfulness of the present moment)
(approach - investigation)
1st appropriate attention for sitting meditation is:
before the meditation start remind yourself (five times or 10 times or 15 times)
1.the five (inhale, exhale etc.) things you are going to experience
2.you are going to notice
3. the naming going to happen
then
start to meditate
what you do is
close your eyes
wait and see (with closed eyes) what comes in your way
(other than wait you do not try to do anything or try to think anything)
Happy meditation!!!
do you know the 'inherent characteristic' of them?
finding the inherent characteristic is the next (important) step
-An arrangement of Matter...
Dropping a brick on your foot?
first of all thanks for the 'input' provided to check 'my' patience
a bit more serious talk:
try to drop a paper on you foot and experience the sensation
what the name 'you' give to the experience of the sensation
check whether 'you' give the name or 'someone else' give the name
if you do you will get Insight
if not
"better drop a brick and check the sensation"
there is no gain without pain, they say (not me)
Names are just labels for "things". You could call a "brick" a "feather", and it would still hurt when you dropped it on your foot. It's the characteristics of a "brick" which define it, including it being heavy and hard.
good
just give a label for the following:
't>[)5&:"
so we will see the characteristic of the above
(not only @SpinyNorman but anyone who do Insight meditation can answer)
it is not easy, ha
may be i try some
'few symbols' , 'no meaning' , 'no name/label' , 'i do not know', 'no sense at all' , 'madness' , 'i give up' and many more in english and in many other languages
what is common in all those?
(no need to answer, let us digest 'this' for a while.
, 'you' don't have to do anything, 'your' mind will do the job)
we have heard about Five Aggregates and Emptiness (FA&E), we have read about FA&E, and we have discussed about FA&E, so we think we know about FA&E
even though we talk/discuss about FA&E, do we know about them?
there may be many other methods to know about FA&E, but this is one effort to know them
if we are lucky enough (kammically) and intelligent enough (developed wisdom) then it is definite we will know FA&E, if we try the following
whatever it is, it is a word
from where does it come? from outside/from the thing you have seen? or from within?
how did you know 'that word'? how did you know it first? you yourself know/knew it without getting help from someone?
step1. a) notice inhale, exhale, sound, sensation, thought (awareness/sati)
b) know that it is noticed (sampajanna/..)
step2. a) notice a word arises (label the experience) (sati)
b) know where does that word come from? (sampajanna)
if there is sati and sampajanna then there is no fabrication (cetana) for whatever arises
for one thought-moment one collected defilement (whatever arised) more is reduced for ever
if not
we built (fabricate) one more defilement to bring back for ever until one day we understand what it is
(if you try only you would know, please try, there is nothing to be disappointed, more for the satisfaction)
practised, experienced
Aggregates can be described many different ways. A collection of self clutter. A potrait painting itself endlessly. Just like a fire needs a few things to come together to make a fire, in the same way, an aggregate needs another aggregate to make clinging, craving, attachment, and eventually suffering.
if any one gives a thought to the August 12 post
step 1 is the mindfulness of form from one of the six sense base (know this is an effect of a previous cause)
step 2 is the mindfulness of cetasika (thought/perception) of mind (know this is just a label given to the step 1 from within)
if we are not mindful about step 2 we make plans (cetana) on step 1, thinking step 1 and step 2 are one unit
(this is what we feed the mind
during the meditation we do not do anything but be mindful and wait to see what is unfolding)
the one who do is only know what is unfolding
speculation will not take us any further for clarification of Dhamma that we have heard/listen so far
(hope at least one would get benefit out of this)
Is is space-alien for "brick"?
see
how slow your brain works
You should seat for meditation to understand it.
My best time is walking by the sea actually. More to work with.
just a reminder (i know, U know, but sometimes we forget)
meditation is not thinking
meditation is wait and see what would arise
pay attention to left foot when it touches the ground
pay attention to right foot when it touches the ground
pay attention to eye when it sees the ground or sea or anything
pay attention to nose when the breeze brings smells
pay attention to the ear when it hears the sound of the sea/ seagulls
pay attention to the body when feels the sensation when the air touches the body
Yes, paying attention to what is going on at the sense bases. It is continually changing of course. Transient conditions.