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Excuses are not the same as reasons. Nothing excuses bad behavior. But some things provide explanations for them without excusing them. I'm not excusing the behavior of Trungpa, Sogyal or anyone else. But I have also lived with an addict and know quite a bit about it.
@Walker. I remember the sixties well. The questioning of authority had some value. The neo-conformity had less. The entire history of how people reacted to the culture of the times has yet to be written.
On a more serious note...It's all relative.... there's no such thing as a bad teacher, there are teachers whose 'goodness' needs to ripen more, or perhaps have struck an obstacle on the path (its their karma) that's all...
I guess, if it's ones karmic flow which leads the student to interact with a certain teacher, so be it ...A lesson is a lesson , what's done is done, and if one has not learnt a lesson from the experience (the student's particular karma pattern has not been fully exhausted/experienced ) the chances are they will come across other teachers of a similar quality and continue their lesson .....
I tend to give all the teachers I come across the benefit of the doubt there's always a lesson to be learnt....
And as the ol' saying goes "When the student is ready...the teacher will appear" and what form the teacher takes is up to the student
I beg to differ. There is such a thing as charlatan teachers, who embarked on a teaching career for reasons other than the spiritual. There are even those who choose their profession with self-serving and ill intent. (Note that "priest" and "police officer" are the top 2 professions chosen by pedophiles, for example.)
Some lessons are too expensive and damaging to be justified in learning the hard way. Some students have paid too dearly for their naivete. If one knows that a train wreck will occur because the conductor is drunk, compassion should move one to warn the passengers. If after the warning, they decide to ride the train anyway, then that is their choice. It is "wrong speech" to withhold information that could save lives. With all the cases of Post Traumatic Stress and other suffering in the Buddhist community resulting from teacher misconduct, we shouldn't simply shrug and say, "Oh well, it's their karma".
Here we have an OP who is aware and alert enough to raise a question about a teacher, before gracing that teacher with their full trust and faith. There is no moral relativism here, in how to respond, IMO. The OP isn't talking about attending a few teachings and gleaning some wisdom from them. The question is about whether the teacher in question is an appropriate apropriate guide for a specific body of work, some of which could open students up to be vulnerable to and manipulated by a teacher with a known history of taking advantage of trusting followers. I see flashing neon red lights, myself.
It is exactly right to find a 'clean skin'. One who 'walks the walk' rather than 'stalking the weak'.
It is the duty of those of us with insight to point out the genuine and fraudulent in ourselves and the useless and abusive, no matter their reputation and colluded power base.
I wasn't really referring to the counter-culture movement. I was thinking more in terms of the establishment. We know a lot more about addiction now, how the body and mind react to chemicals. It seems that it's seen more now as an illness rather than a character shortcoming.
It's much easier for addicts to get help nowadays. Far less judgement on the person, and a more of a desire to help, rather than lay blame.
@Walker I'm not going to make another turn in this thread that's off-topic, but a lot of that is appearance from the outside. It is much different when you are dealing with it from the inside. And we, as a society, have a habit of supporting addicts when they are someone we like and can relate to, particular actors, beloved musicians etc. But when we don't have any connection or don't care, often our view is far more judgmental. People still lose their jobs and their housing and their families over addiction. Every day. And their freedom.
I'm not for one moment suggesting the OP (or any student for that matter) should stay with a teacher if what they teach or aspects of their personal life makes them feel uneasy, but one also must take into account " One teacher's teaching/meat could well be one student's obstacle or another student's clear path"...
I'm just saying when it comes to the credibility of Dharma teachers 'in general' "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"
In all fairness some students have benefited from Sogyal Rinpoche's teachings just as some have been corrupted by his personal life...
After all ... We are all riding the waves of Dukkha through the ocean of Samsara trying to stay in the middle of the raft....
I'm reminded of this quote...
"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."
~Sensei Sevan Ross~
It would seen that this is where the Op is at....and I can only wish him a safe journey of non self discovery....
(hence why I've been saying "Don't mistake the finger pointing to the moon for the moon!" )
@Dakini. I appreciated your thoughtful post. We do bear a responsibility to protect others that are vulnerable. If only by alerting them to what they may not know. So that some degree of informed consent is possible.
I'm not for one moment suggesting the OP (or any student for that matter) should stay with a teacher if what they teach or aspects of their personal life makes them feel uneasy, but one also must take into account " One teacher's teaching/meat could well be one student's obstacle or another student's clear path"...
I'm just saying when it comes to the credibility of Dharma teachers 'in general' "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"
In all fairness some students have benefited from Sogyal Rinpoche's teachings just as some have been corrupted by his personal life...
After all ... We are all riding the waves of Dukkha through the ocean of Samsara trying to stay in the middle of the raft....
I'm reminded of this quote...
"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."
~Sensei Sevan Ross~
It would seen that this is where the Op is at....and I can only wish him a safe journey of non self discovery....
(hence why I've been saying "Don't mistake the finger pointing to the moon for the moon!" )
Yes, Shoshin. Nothing personal toward you, of course. It's all grist for the discussion.
I was just saying, the seeker should choose his walking stick carefully, taking his time.
Comments
I do think that things have changed a lot since the sixties. It is easy to judge past events without taking into account the culture of the times.
Excuses for bad conduct are not a solution. Any more than investigation without discernment is productive.
Excuses are not the same as reasons. Nothing excuses bad behavior. But some things provide explanations for them without excusing them. I'm not excusing the behavior of Trungpa, Sogyal or anyone else. But I have also lived with an addict and know quite a bit about it.
@Walker. I remember the sixties well. The questioning of authority had some value. The neo-conformity had less. The entire history of how people reacted to the culture of the times has yet to be written.
I beg to differ. There is such a thing as charlatan teachers, who embarked on a teaching career for reasons other than the spiritual. There are even those who choose their profession with self-serving and ill intent. (Note that "priest" and "police officer" are the top 2 professions chosen by pedophiles, for example.)
Some lessons are too expensive and damaging to be justified in learning the hard way. Some students have paid too dearly for their naivete. If one knows that a train wreck will occur because the conductor is drunk, compassion should move one to warn the passengers. If after the warning, they decide to ride the train anyway, then that is their choice. It is "wrong speech" to withhold information that could save lives. With all the cases of Post Traumatic Stress and other suffering in the Buddhist community resulting from teacher misconduct, we shouldn't simply shrug and say, "Oh well, it's their karma".
Here we have an OP who is aware and alert enough to raise a question about a teacher, before gracing that teacher with their full trust and faith. There is no moral relativism here, in how to respond, IMO. The OP isn't talking about attending a few teachings and gleaning some wisdom from them. The question is about whether the teacher in question is an appropriate apropriate guide for a specific body of work, some of which could open students up to be vulnerable to and manipulated by a teacher with a known history of taking advantage of trusting followers. I see flashing neon red lights, myself.
Well said @Dakini
It is exactly right to find a 'clean skin'. One who 'walks the walk' rather than 'stalking the weak'.
It is the duty of those of us with insight to point out the genuine and fraudulent in ourselves and the useless and abusive, no matter their reputation and colluded power base.
I will be with the Rhino if needed ...
http://www.hermitary.com/solitude/rhinoceros.html
I wasn't really referring to the counter-culture movement. I was thinking more in terms of the establishment. We know a lot more about addiction now, how the body and mind react to chemicals. It seems that it's seen more now as an illness rather than a character shortcoming.
It's much easier for addicts to get help nowadays. Far less judgement on the person, and a more of a desire to help, rather than lay blame.
@Walker I'm not going to make another turn in this thread that's off-topic, but a lot of that is appearance from the outside. It is much different when you are dealing with it from the inside. And we, as a society, have a habit of supporting addicts when they are someone we like and can relate to, particular actors, beloved musicians etc. But when we don't have any connection or don't care, often our view is far more judgmental. People still lose their jobs and their housing and their families over addiction. Every day. And their freedom.
@Dakini,
You make some interesting points...However......
I'm not for one moment suggesting the OP (or any student for that matter) should stay with a teacher if what they teach or aspects of their personal life makes them feel uneasy, but one also must take into account " One teacher's teaching/meat could well be one student's obstacle or another student's clear path"...
I'm just saying when it comes to the credibility of Dharma teachers 'in general' "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"
In all fairness some students have benefited from Sogyal Rinpoche's teachings just as some have been corrupted by his personal life...
After all ... We are all riding the waves of Dukkha through the ocean of Samsara trying to stay in the middle of the raft....
I'm reminded of this quote...
"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."
~Sensei Sevan Ross~
It would seen that this is where the Op is at....and I can only wish him a safe journey of non self discovery....
(hence why I've been saying "Don't mistake the finger pointing to the moon for the moon!" )
@Dakini. I appreciated your thoughtful post. We do bear a responsibility to protect others that are vulnerable. If only by alerting them to what they may not know. So that some degree of informed consent is possible.
Yes, Shoshin. Nothing personal toward you, of course. It's all grist for the discussion.
I was just saying, the seeker should choose his walking stick carefully, taking his time.