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Could the protoconsciousness that directs our dreams each night be a shadow of our original selves?
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I'm not quite sure how to understand the question. I look at and analyze my dreams and they often seem like they are expressions of my unconscious mind. So if by protoconsciousness you mean subconscious and our original selves meaning our deepest feelings and intentions I'd answer yes to the question.
I think the article pretty much reinforced what I already believed, but its nice to have some science in your corner.
When you say 'original self' you maybe mean some sort of eternally incarnating consciousness? In that case no.
Many mystic, Buddhist and Shamanic practices are dabbling in delusions (all a bit jumbled and different you will notice). Powerful dreams, waking dreams, delusions, trance and drug experiences are ... not real. Strength of experiential impact does not validate its reality. In Tantra and other dreamy paths we make use of the emotional pool and underlying mind states.
Who guessed?
0
Fosdickin its eye are mirrored far off mountainsAlaska, USAVeteran
Gee, I don't know - what is the original self? Is it the unconditioned self? If so, I am inclined to the view that, as the brain is a conditioned entity, its products - such as dreams - are also conditioned and hence do not embody our original self.
Does our original, unconditioned self influence the dreaming brain in some subtle way? For that matter, does this unconditioned self influence the waking brain? Does it influence the meditating brain? It seems to me that it must. So why not dreams?
Does protoconscious (theoretical state of consciousness) sound at all like what Zen points to when they ask. "What was your original face?" Reason suggests this might be referencing a primordial consciousness. Could this be something we encounter unknowingly every night while dreaming as though it were something to be discarded as meaningless. Is the void staring us in the orgiginal face every time we slip away in slumber?
Protoconsciousness. A primordial state of brain organization that is a building block for consciousness. In humans, protoconsciousness is proposed to develop as brain development proceeds in REM sleep in utero and in early life.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Does it matter..? I mean, how vital to your quotidian practice is this question, or its answer?
That's what I ask myself when such musings arise...
What difference would this make to the way I behave with others?
Does the answer make me more accountable?
What gives?
Suppose it matters little more than remedies for toenail fungus, but then it is General Banter, intit?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I look upon it more as papanca......
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I'm still not sure exactly what you mean when referring to protoconsciousness. But, in my mind the way protoconsciousness influences our dreams is probably the same way it would influence our waking life. By definition it sounds like it means a sort of primitive consciousness component, so I can't really imagine why or how it would impact dreams differently.
For modern science, the transitional states of consciousness lie at the forefront of research in many fields. For a Buddhist practitioner these same states present crucial opportunities to explore and transform consciousness itself.
(Excerpt from "Sleeping, Dreaming, and Dying: An Exploration of Consciousness" by HHDL)
In theory, the concept of protoconsciousness implicates a descripition of consciousness as an unemotional, ineffable state of observational and organizational creation to me. Creation of both a waking and sleeping and, perhaps, a dying consciousness. I find it interesting that theoretically, a protoconsciousness or "authentic self" model can be conjectured to be responsible for building consciousness and awareness and shaping dreams based upon observation, yet seemingly nearly impossible to access mentally without an eightfold path. So I'm asking if this concept seems like another scientific method of describing and reinforcing sunyata and the basis for dukkha.
^^. The situation is this. There is no study of the awake state/Nirvana because of the difficulties of evaluation and the reticence of the awake to be monitored.
In the future when regular brain scans and other measurements become common place, it may be possible to map any temp and permanent changes in physical systems, breathing, pulse, brain activity, etc.
It is precisely because of the difficulties of inducing awakening, that a monitoring of monks/seekers over a forty year period might reveal something or show the ineffective nature of their particular dharma 'system'.
At the moment studies of experienced meditators do show many palpable benefits of meditation, from concentration, increased hormonal discharge or brain area development, enhanced immune system etc but these are all superficial if beneficial side effects.
For now Mr Cushion is our lab.
Here is one before and after a sitting.
Sarcasm, censure and doubt are products of consciousness shaped by a theoretical protoconsciousness just as are curiosity, compassion and loving kindness. Intelligence, for that matter, is also a by-product of the emptiness this theory points to. Science is apathetic too, like protoconsciousness, it just labels and quantifies for our edification and risibility. So, if a protoconsciousness is a postulated foundation for awareness and thereby all phenomenon, how can it be of no significance?
It may taste scrumdidllyumptious, but unfortunately the Fair Trade sticker on a chocolate bar is more a marketing tool than a warranty for fairness or environmental responsibility.
Whether it's coffee or cacao, the program is well intentioned but deeply flawed.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
What part of Protoconsciousness are we discussing now, the Environmental bit?
Look.
All we can do is our best.
While I agree that to blindly trust labels is foolish, we can only contribute to the global solution to poverty vs mass marketing in a conscientious way, to the best of our ability.
I did ask an assistant at the shop if, therefore, all other brands were NOT pro-free-trade and responsibly sourced - and she didn't know what to say... So it's good to get people thinking.
But when we ourselves shop, we can only do so with wisdom to the limit of our own ability and understanding.
And now, to coin a phrase, back to the table (with a sandwich. And no, I'm not telling you how I got it.)
The cocoa and sandwich (at least tell what's on it) are not the issue here. Neither is the environment.
Listen.
This whole protoconscious mash up really just sounded like a new name for the same old thing - nothingness. It seemed novel from a scientific standpoint since it sounded suspiciously like secular Buddhism but it is going nowhere here. Hence, the cocoa and sandwich. I hope it's not Spam.....
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Comments
I'm not quite sure how to understand the question. I look at and analyze my dreams and they often seem like they are expressions of my unconscious mind. So if by protoconsciousness you mean subconscious and our original selves meaning our deepest feelings and intentions I'd answer yes to the question.
I think the article pretty much reinforced what I already believed, but its nice to have some science in your corner.
When you say 'original self' you maybe mean some sort of eternally incarnating consciousness? In that case no.
Many mystic, Buddhist and Shamanic practices are dabbling in delusions (all a bit jumbled and different you will notice). Powerful dreams, waking dreams, delusions, trance and drug experiences are ... not real. Strength of experiential impact does not validate its reality. In Tantra and other dreamy paths we make use of the emotional pool and underlying mind states.
Who guessed?
Gee, I don't know - what is the original self? Is it the unconditioned self? If so, I am inclined to the view that, as the brain is a conditioned entity, its products - such as dreams - are also conditioned and hence do not embody our original self.
Does our original, unconditioned self influence the dreaming brain in some subtle way? For that matter, does this unconditioned self influence the waking brain? Does it influence the meditating brain? It seems to me that it must. So why not dreams?
Too many questions for this old fart.
Does protoconscious (theoretical state of consciousness) sound at all like what Zen points to when they ask. "What was your original face?" Reason suggests this might be referencing a primordial consciousness. Could this be something we encounter unknowingly every night while dreaming as though it were something to be discarded as meaningless. Is the void staring us in the orgiginal face every time we slip away in slumber?
Protoconsciousness. A primordial state of brain organization that is a building block for consciousness. In humans, protoconsciousness is proposed to develop as brain development proceeds in REM sleep in utero and in early life.
Does it matter..? I mean, how vital to your quotidian practice is this question, or its answer?
That's what I ask myself when such musings arise...
What difference would this make to the way I behave with others?
Does the answer make me more accountable?
What gives?
Suppose it matters little more than remedies for toenail fungus, but then it is General Banter, intit?
I look upon it more as papanca......
I'm still not sure exactly what you mean when referring to protoconsciousness. But, in my mind the way protoconsciousness influences our dreams is probably the same way it would influence our waking life. By definition it sounds like it means a sort of primitive consciousness component, so I can't really imagine why or how it would impact dreams differently.
For modern science, the transitional states of consciousness lie at the forefront of research in many fields. For a Buddhist practitioner these same states present crucial opportunities to explore and transform consciousness itself.
(Excerpt from "Sleeping, Dreaming, and Dying: An Exploration of Consciousness" by HHDL)
In theory, the concept of protoconsciousness implicates a descripition of consciousness as an unemotional, ineffable state of observational and organizational creation to me. Creation of both a waking and sleeping and, perhaps, a dying consciousness. I find it interesting that theoretically, a protoconsciousness or "authentic self" model can be conjectured to be responsible for building consciousness and awareness and shaping dreams based upon observation, yet seemingly nearly impossible to access mentally without an eightfold path. So I'm asking if this concept seems like another scientific method of describing and reinforcing sunyata and the basis for dukkha.
^^. The situation is this. There is no study of the awake state/Nirvana because of the difficulties of evaluation and the reticence of the awake to be monitored.
In the future when regular brain scans and other measurements become common place, it may be possible to map any temp and permanent changes in physical systems, breathing, pulse, brain activity, etc.
It is precisely because of the difficulties of inducing awakening, that a monitoring of monks/seekers over a forty year period might reveal something or show the ineffective nature of their particular dharma 'system'.
At the moment studies of experienced meditators do show many palpable benefits of meditation, from concentration, increased hormonal discharge or brain area development, enhanced immune system etc but these are all superficial if beneficial side effects.
For now Mr Cushion is our lab.
Here is one before and after a sitting.
There are also many benefits to sitting in a comfortable chair with a hot cup of cocoa at sunset.
Nice cushion.
Buddhism is for the intelligentsia.
They rise above Protoconsciousness.
And anything else, for that matter.
Pass the cocoa.
Sarcasm, censure and doubt are products of consciousness shaped by a theoretical protoconsciousness just as are curiosity, compassion and loving kindness. Intelligence, for that matter, is also a by-product of the emptiness this theory points to. Science is apathetic too, like protoconsciousness, it just labels and quantifies for our edification and risibility. So, if a protoconsciousness is a postulated foundation for awareness and thereby all phenomenon, how can it be of no significance?
Is yer cocoa causing global warming?
https://planetearth5.com/2016/02/06/cocoa-and-deforestation/
Nope. I buy "FreeTrade" Responsibly sourced from Holland & Barrett. You?
Does it matter?
It may taste scrumdidllyumptious, but unfortunately the Fair Trade sticker on a chocolate bar is more a marketing tool than a warranty for fairness or environmental responsibility.
https://thechocolatejournalist.com/fair-trade-chocolate-debunking-the-myth/
This seems to be the rabbit hole protoconsciousness has run down. Thanks for all input.
Every word of it.
http://www.fairtrade.net/fileadmin/user_upload/content/2009/news/Fairtrade_response_FAIR_Report.pdf
Every sip of it.
... and now back out of the hole ...
Nope.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wydick/10-reasons-fair-trade-coffee-doesnt-work_b_5651663.html
Whether it's coffee or cacao, the program is well intentioned but deeply flawed.
What part of Protoconsciousness are we discussing now, the Environmental bit?
Look.
All we can do is our best.
While I agree that to blindly trust labels is foolish, we can only contribute to the global solution to poverty vs mass marketing in a conscientious way, to the best of our ability.
I did ask an assistant at the shop if, therefore, all other brands were NOT pro-free-trade and responsibly sourced - and she didn't know what to say... So it's good to get people thinking.
But when we ourselves shop, we can only do so with wisdom to the limit of our own ability and understanding.
And now, to coin a phrase, back to the table (with a sandwich. And no, I'm not telling you how I got it.)
The cocoa and sandwich (at least tell what's on it) are not the issue here. Neither is the environment.
Listen.
This whole protoconscious mash up really just sounded like a new name for the same old thing - nothingness. It seemed novel from a scientific standpoint since it sounded suspiciously like secular Buddhism but it is going nowhere here. Hence, the cocoa and sandwich. I hope it's not Spam.....
Oh. Damn.
Well played, sir, well played.....
"Crocodile sandwich, and make it snappy!"